Evaluating HDD or DVD Handycam

jcrosbo: He is evaluating between HDD and DVD! Thats what he wants.
tremorz: The DCR-SR60 is definitely a good camcorder and yes, you can transfer it to the computer and edit it with your software. I would recommend HDD over DVD because the HDD holds more data (7 hrs) and DVD only holds 20 mins ((both HDD and DVD in high quality)). But if DVD is what you want, the DCR-405 or 505 will be your best bet. Also, look into the new AVCHD camcorders released by Sony, the HDR-UX1 and HDR-SR1. Both record into HD and are REALLY GREAT CAMCORDERS!!! Video looks great even in SD but HD is just so cool!! Features-galore too!! Even though there is not software to edit the video yet, there will be some software updates soon (so you won't have to buy new software).

The reason I'm not considering MiniDV is because the thought of 'moving' the video from Tape to PC/Notebook seems complex for me.

I've tried a DVD Handycam, and transferring the MPG(MPEG2) files seems okay, but found working with it a bit tricky. I'm not familiar at all with Video Editing and so on.

But i'm in I.T. line, which makes me more comfortable with Harddisk (HDD) or DVD (can pop into DVD PLayer)

Any wisdom/experience/knowlegde you'd like to share ... I would want to know more.

Thank you.

because you can lock the tape and stick on the shelf if you ever want to go back to it.

When you transfer a video file from a hard-drive based camcorder, you connect a (typically) USB cable and the camera mounts - and you treat that drive like a hard drive. Drag the file and copy to your computer hard drive. Then you delete the video file from your camcorder. If you back up the data on your computer, then you will have an archive.

When you transfer a video file from a miniDV tape based camcorder, you connect a (typically) FireWire cable, launch your video editing application and click Import. When the import is done, take the tape out, lock it, store it.

I have worked with DVD based camera footage before and just cannot recommend it because of its poor image quality - but for what it is worth, depending on the camera, you will either connect a cable (USB) and the disc mounts so you copy the file OR you "finalize" the disc, put it in your tray DVD drive (NOT SLOT LOADING), and "rip" the video (like ripping audio files from CDs.

There is no big mystery or huge difference - and with its superior imaging, miniDV tape continues to be the best value and technology for capturing video.

My opinion: MiniDV tape should be your first choice.

That said, if you don't care about "best available quality", archiving the video for possible later retrieval, long shelf life (you can also export your edited product back to the camera in addition to burning a DVD and tape has a longer shelf life than discs), or having to think about what you will do when the hard drive in the camera crashes and you precious untransferred video was on there, then I would say the Hard drive based machines coome as a distant second choice.

I would not recommend a miniDVD camcorder at all.

Boya84 you seem sold on the MiniDV tape. You have convinced me (along with reading many other posts on many forums). My question is that although I am pretty good on the computer I do not know anything about Firewire. I have a Dell Dimension E510 P4 3.2GHz. I do not know if it has a Firewire port. How do I tell and if it doesnt, how do I get one and do I really need it to download MiniDV?

Thanks

Boya84,

I see you are using a Sony HDR-HC1, can you compare that to the Panasonic PV-GS300? The Sonys that I looked at did not have the 3CCDs that I understand improve IQ. What are some key differentiators as you see them? I have always had a Sony but am hearing good things about the Panasonics. I wanted a higher optical zoom than 10x-12x but most MiniDVs do not go much higher. I use it for taping son playing basketball and family type gatherings. Nothing professional.

Thanks for the info on the Firewire. I went out to the local brick and mortar store and had them educate me on that. Should be simple to install. Have installed cards before.

I appreciate your help and passing on your knowledge.

Russ

Boya84,

Never mind my question comparing your Sony to the Panasonic. I see yours is out of my league. If you can help me between the Sony and Panasonic brands and which you would recommend. I would like to keep it under $800.

Thanks

Russ

It is just a different camera. I am not a pro - though for some reason I find myself in circumstances that one might find a professional working... anyway, I understand your dilemma, and I am happy to provide my opinion.

Honestly, in the $ range you have budgeted, either a Panasonic or Sony or Canon miniDV based camera would provide you with great quality video. I also think a hard-drive based camera doing standard definition would do quite well for you, too. Based on my previous experience working with a disc from a MiniDVD camera, I just can't bring myself to recommend that format because the image quality is not good. They may be convenient, but at the expense of poor quality... well, they aren't THAT convenient in my book.

There are other things to consider - some may be important to you, and some may not be. That is where you need to make a decision.

1) Does the camera have the ability to add a 2x (or greater) lens? If you are shooting baseball games, closeups would be REALLY cool - and the 10x-12x zoom just isn't enough. Be sure to turn OFF optical zoom. Very bad. The tele- lens usually screws on. The manufacturer's web sites typically list what accessories will go with the camera you select.

2) If you decide a hard drive camcorder is the way to go, how will you archive the video? Not all the video you shoot will make it to the DVD that you share with family and friends. But there *may* be video in there you want to keep - even if you don't share it. In my case, I have been finding that for every hour of tape I shoot, I end up using around 8 minutes. The exception to this is when I am shooting bands (bar, concert, whatever...). But the stuff that is cut can be useful in other projects... When I fill a miniDV tape, I pop it out, lock it, label it and pop in another one. Whe I get home, I connect the camera to my computer, transfer the video and put the locked tape in a box. I edit - and if I accidentally cut and delete something or if I want a particular sequence from 6 months ago, I just go back to the marked tape and re-import it. If I use a hard drive based camcorder, when I transfer that video to the computer, and delete it from the camcorder's hard drive (so I can shoot more video), I need to somehow archive that video in the computer. If I don't archive that video in the computer and start editing, all the stuff that is cut and deleted will be gone forever.

3) Check to see if the camcorder has an external mic jack. When I first started shooting video, I thought the built-in mics were just fine. I learned that external mics provide so much more clarity and audio pick-up... it can be an inexpensive way to make your productions more "pro-like" because they sound so much better. Plus, when you add an external mic, you certainly LOOK like you know what you are doing! Sony is interesting this way. Many of their cameras do not have an external mic jack, but they do have a proprietary hot shoe that allows use of proprietary Sony external mics...

4) The chip differences (3 CCDs vs 1 CCD vs 1 CMOS) end up being an activity where "size matters". The whole point of the chips is to digitize what the lens sees and move that digital image to the tape (or hard drive). For normal people like me - and probably you, three tiny CCDs with the same surface area as 1 big CCD or 1 big CMOS chip should yield relatively similar results (I know, someone is likely to yell at me here - this is MY opinion, only). That said, the Panasonic cameras have made quite a name for themselves because of their 3CCD array. Frankly, I have been seriously considering getting one just for low-light situations because my camera does not do too well in low light...

5) It is all about how YOU handle the camera. I am certain that a professional videographer with a $200 camera will yield better results than a nervous amatuer using a $2000 camera. Be sure to take time to get to know your camera. Use a tripod. Get that external mic. Get a high-capacity battery or two. Don't zoom - but if you must, zoom SLOWLY. Pan slowly. Pay attention to what you see on TV. Keep that in the back of your mind when you are shooting. The folks who staff cameras for a living can teach us a lot. That does not mean they tell us what they are doing - we can SEE what they are doing - we just need to pay attention. We don't need to get paid $ for it, but we do want to capture good video...

6) If you decide to get a hard drive based camcorder, be almost religious about transferring your video off the camcorder to your computer. The last thing you want is to have not transferred video and want to grab new footage - only to find out that you are running out of hard drive space. With a miniDV based camera, the tapes are cheap. ~$3 each. I get them in 8-packs. Each tape holds an hour (at best quality - SP).

7) Take a look at http://www.camcorderinfo.com/ratings.php . Any of them in the top 10 or 11, reviewed in 2006 (but none of the DVD or miniDVD based camcorders), would probably easily meet - perhaps exceed - your image quality requirements... but it is the "other stuff" (listed above) that *could* be the difference between, "Let's hide, Russ wants to show home movies again" to "Russ, could you play that DVD again and shoot more video for us?" Of course, your video editing skills and the subject will have an impact on that too...

I realize I didn't select a camera. Using all of the above criteria, in my opinion, that your short list should include the Panasonic PV-GS300, Panasonic PV-GS500, Sony DCR-HC96, Sony DCR-SR100... Any of them will do a great job for you. If you get a MiniDV tape based camcorder that uses FireWire to transfer video, you will need to get the FireWire cable, too - for some stupid reason, the manufacturers don't include those in the box. 4-pin to camera; 6-pin to computer... which reminds me: Your computer needs to have a FireWire port... and you need a pretty good sized hard drive with lots of available space. The USB cable included in the box with the camera will transfer only things on the memory card (like stills).

I hope this helps.

Bill

How do you backup DVD or HDD? To a hard drive? That will get pretty expensive.

The other part of the equation is resolution of the image. In a tape based system, the resolution is far higher which means an edited video will have much better quality. That's for SD video. It looks like the jury is still out for HD video, but the best HD cameras still rely on tape.

DVD and MiniDV tape are similar. Pop it out when full, put in a new one, put the original on a shelf after transferring to computer.

Since miniDV tape image quallity is so much better than miniDVD or DVD, miniDV tape wins that race. I am still curious about the hard drive archiving... But maybe that is unimportant, or maybe data backups of the computer are being done...

properly stored although one could use archival DVDs to minimize the risk. Even then however, a scratch or two in the wrong place can render the DVD unusable. For those reasons, I don't think miniDV tape and DVDs are comparable.

I've seen professionals who back up their data to hard drives, but that is an extremely expensive option. They use removable drives, special storage facilities, foil lined containers, etc.

I don't know if you have seen but the price for HDDs have been decreasing dramatically. In the late 80s, a 10 MB HDD would cost $200. Now, a 400GB HDD will cost about $200. 80s price per meg=$20
2006 price per gig= 50cents. See dramatic decrease and it will only get lower in the future years. So there goes the theory of too expensive to stor data on HDDs. Anout the miniDVDs, as long as they are stored (just like miniDV tapes), they wont get scratched!!!! (store=secure)

Decreases in computer prices, including storage costs, were probably occurring before you were born. They aren't exactly news flashes. You're clearly so eager to find a nail to use your hammer on that you fail to see the forest for the threes.

As for DVDs, if you want your videos stored on untested media whose life is uncertain, and which may be one scratch away from oblivion, that's certainly your choice. Others may be excused if they don't follow you off the cliff.

I can shoot 1 hour of high definition video on my HDR-HC1 on a $3 miniDV tape (which is actually a little high, but it is a nice round number). Again, for round numbers in this activity, lets say I have 50 tapes (I have more, but that is not the point). When I transfer that HD video to my computer, 1 hour of unedited, uncompressed, HD video (suitable for editing) uses 30 gig of hard drive space on my computer. That miniDV tape becomes my archive for later retrieval.

$3 per miniDV tape x 50 tapes = $150.

30 gig x 50 tapes = 1,500 gig or 1.5 terabytes.

I'm looking, but I can't find a terabyte drive for $150... Most are four times that. I guess I could do multiple 500 gig drives, but they end up costing even more.

http://shop2.outpost.com/search?cat=-48948&pType=pDisplay

http://shop2.outpost.com/search?cat=-48954&pType=pDisplay
(don't forget the drive cases)

I do agree that properly stored and never handled discs will not get scratched... but the fact remains that discs do not have the shelf life that digital tape does... and I specify digital tape since that is what miniDV tape is... which is VERY different from analog tape (like the old cassettes and VHS tapes...).

I agree with all the posts about miniDV and Image Quality. I also agree about the storage issues, but this particular issues has not been a big deal to me since I am not a heavy video user or professional.

The biggest issue I have with miniDV is transfer/encoding time. Even with a fast computer and firewire it seems to take a VERY long time to get stuff off the camera to the point of doing something usefull with it. In my limited experience it adds HOURS to any project.

With DVD and HDD cameras this time is redically reduced, and close to zero. So basically you are editing immediately.

I would appreciate your thoughts on this, how much time you spend on transfer / encoding, and what if anything you do about reducing it.

Thanks
Phil

HDD transfers way faster than miniDV. I can transfer a full 30GB in 10-15mins. I ahve heard it takes longer with miniDV tape.

can be an issue, I agree. With standard definition video, it is a real-time activity - 1 hour of SD video transfered to a 'puter takes an hour. It can take longer with high-definition video. My G5 Macintosh buffers the high-def video and decodes it at about 1/2-3/4 speed so it takes about an hour and a half to get an hour of high-def video into my year and a half old machine. I would expect that the newer CoreDuo machines would be faster. And the reverse is also true - when the editing is complete, rendering out to DVD takes time (but this would be the same as with a hard-drive based... and this action has nothing to do with the camera).

I can't say that I totally agree that it adds HOURS to all projects, because all projects do not use full or multiple miniDV tapes. As a favor to an audio engineer/instructor friend, I shot about 30 minutes of video for her sound design class. The students wrote the script and story-boarded everything, so there were multiple shots of pretty much every scene. She did a quick edit and got it down to about 7 minutes - per the script. Their homework assignment was to do all the post-production audio. The video import/export was the least of the time taken in this example.

That said, if you are doing multiple miniDV tapes of the high-school drama production or sporting event or whatever other full or multi-tape activity to be edited, yes, it can add some time to import and export - but there is always something to do while that is going on. If you just sit there and stare at it, then you are wasting time that could be better spent doing something productive. I could argue that transferring from a hard drive (or ripping from a DVD) machine *could* be less productive since you might be compelled to sit there and wait for the file(s) to transfer - typically not enough time to go do something else productive. I hit "import" and go do something else like collect information for the credits or work on the opening titles design or have a cup of coffee or respond in forums like this (there is an import going on right now, by the way). If I choose to do something else away from the 'puter, I might swing by occasionally to see what progress is being made, but that is a quick glance at the screen - certainly not time-consuming.

For output, on my old G4 tower (in my standard definition days), I would click the burn-to-DVD button and go to sleep. In the morning, the disc was done. Today, even with HD video, it happens a lot faster than over night, and you are right, it can take some time... but again, I don't sit there and stare at it...

So it turns into more of a time-management activity than a time-waster... and given this, I guess it is fair to say that once I hit the import or export buttons I don't spend ANY time on transfer/encoding... Is there a big rush to do something that I'm not aware of?

It is FACT that digital media (i.e. HDD, flash, and DVD) is decreasing in price very rapidly. Before you know it, computers will be sold with standard 500GB drives. This is all true because the price is going down allowing manufacturers to put larger drives in for less price. I agree that at this moment, price is still too high, but like I said, it will go down way below what it is now. DVDs (which hold 4.7GB) were as expensive as BluRay discs (which hold 25GB(eventually 50GB)) now when they came out in the 90s. Now you can find a DVD for $5 or less instead of $30 in the 90s.

When I record a certain event, such as a birthday or sports outing, etc, I never use the whole thing without editing it first like you said. But when you said you would sometimes reuse scenes you didn't use seems kinda odd. "Here's Johnny running around(new scene from earlier recorded video), wait.. this looks different than what I was just watching...". I don't know when I would ever use an unwanted scene so maybe that is just your personal way of editing but I would never do that so if I got rid of the unwanted video (approx 40mins out of 60 mins), I would save 66.6% of HDD space for an hour of video imported for other wanted video. This puts more wanted video in the HDD per dollar.

Please check this link for regarding the shelf life of miniDVDs (not that I'm actually sticking up for the format):
http://ezinearticles.com/?Mini-DVD-R&id=122953 Go to the third paragraph.
Sorry but I cant find an estimated shelf life of miniDV. But there are many websites that say there are many maintenance tasks that have to be done to miniDV tape. 1, fastforward or rewind the tape every couple years. 2, clean the heads, etc. There are really no maintenance tasks that have to be performed on HDDs or miniDVDs.

So....since there's really no point to arguing about this anymore, I will tell people what my own opinion is and you and Kiddpeat can tell the reader what your opinion is. They are both OPINIONS, not a fact of who is wrong or right. (BTW, that video you were putting together for me is not that big of a deal, you don't have to do it if you don't feel like it. But thanks for your willingness to do that for me.)

D

I agree that ALL memory prices are falling rapidly. That has never been denied. But I work and live and shoot video in the here and now... And right now, miniDV tape is much more cost effective as evidenced by the math activity I went through. And yes, I agree that given any set of numbers and arguments, one can make the numbbers say whatever you want them to - but in its simplest form - right now and likely for the short and mid term of at least a couple of years - MiniDV tape is cheap compared to electromechanical hard drives capable of storing the same amount of space.

As I have said before, hard drives and DVD-based recordable memory are an interim step...

Three years from now, this whole discussion would not be happening. It was not that long ago I remember paying $100 per megabyte for RAM - and I thought that was a good deal - when I was upgrading my Macintosh SE to max out at 4 meg of RAM. Today, it is less than $100 per gigabyte. But gig RAM was not available then and had I waited, I would not have been able to take advantage of the technology THEN. When new technology has a compelling reason AND I have a compelling event to jump in, I am all for it. That is why I use a HiDef camcorder even though I don't yet have a HiDef TV. I wanted a new camera (because my son got my Elura 60) and I can downsample... plus I know one of these days I will get a HiDef TV.

Solid-state memory - electronic RAM - for data storage is where this all needs to go. The low-end cameras like the AipTeks have the right idea - but they keep their prices low and image quality suffers. The Panasonic AG-HVX200 also has the right idea, but the P2 cards need to store more (1080i) and the whole rig needs to drop in price for mere mortals to afford. I have also said that hard drive based cameras would be fine for the short term - if the hard drives were removeable - but they aren't (unless you get an FS-4 which are WAY too expensive).

On using old cut scenes... I used to think the same way you did - If I cut the scene from the final edit, why would I ever use it anywhere? And I used to re-use the VHS tapes (when I used to use a full-format VHS shoulder mount camcorder) after editing... all the way up until I figured out a couple of things: (1) tape is cheap. (2) using scenes no one has seen can be fun. (3) outakes can be especially interesting... (4) when recorded over or deleted it is gone. Forever.

I do agree that there is a measure of savings by dumping shaky, really poorly lit, icky zoom/pan or blurry stuff no one would ever care about and where there really is no subject to speak of... but as time passes, I am getting less of that. I stand by my gig/tape continuing to be more cost effective - for now. As for maintenance, I had not heard the FF/RW every couple of years requirement... and cleaning the heads takes nearly 30 seconds... I don't see how that 1 item equals "many maintnenance tasks"... Just a suggestion, though, you should keep http://drivesavers.com/index.html handy - and I sincerely hope you never need them.

And I agree, we are stating our opinions... By the way, I am still prepared to email the series of 8 meg clips, but you said you couldn't see anything (though you could hear it) in the first 1/2 second uncompressed HD .mov clip I sent and your video editor would not recognize that .mov clip, either, so I figured there was not much else to do on it since the only way to get the whole several seconds would be to edit them together... which, by the way, was imported from from my archive tapes - that no one would ever see - until you asked, so I guess keeping everything DOES come in handy...

You never did tell me how that downsampled, 2 meg, clip came across...

The article you linked to on DVD life? I wouldn't bet any money on that opinion.

First, there is no link to a scientific study in the article. Things like what causes DVDs to fail, how soon they fail, which brands fare best, etc. Without a detailed study, video stored on home/camera burned media is hanging by a thread. I have seen studies on CD media longevity. They weren't very encouraging. I have not seen similar studies for DVD media. The author you cite doesn't even mention the importance of who made the media.

The author's qualifications? They appear to be focused on billing software for dentists and other businesses. In an age where everyone thinks he/she is an expert, his opinion is more of the same. It is lacking in credibility.

You really need to stop looking for nails, and think deeply about the issues. For example, where is that 500GB drive backed up? How many generations of backup exist? How will you know when that drive should be replaced to avoid data loss? How many more of them will you need? Those are some of the issues.

First of all, I don't think you know what these forums are about. Do you know why people post questions on this forum? They want responses from different people to see what they say. Are they the same? NO! It is an OPINION FORUM. Out of all your posts, I asssume(eh hem) that your opinion is for miniDV. I am ok with that because I RESPECT YOUR OPINION. I also respect boya's opinion and he in return respects mine. It just seems that you are trying too much to find wrongs in my OPINIONS when you could be helping people with their problems by saying what you think works for you.

Second, I don't know what "nails" you are talking about but in case you weren't aware, I'm not sticking up for miniDVD. In fact, ALL SHELF LIVES ARE ESTIMATES ANYWAY!!! Have you noticed that not even tape has been around for 100 years??? So how can you (or anyone) say it has a life of over 100 years?? Scientific tests do not prove the future. DVDS have been here for about 10-15 years so apparently there hasn't been enough time to test them thoroughly. When I see an official (or in your case, credible) report on shelf life of DVDs, I will then decide.

Third, I understand your hatred against HDDs being safe for data. When I transfer my videos, I put them on a DVD because I know they will not last forever on an HDD and will have a lot longer life on solid-state media. If my HDD crashes, I have DVDs to put back on there when I need them. If I dont mess with them and keep them stored, they won't scratch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

seeking it. The expression of opinion, if that opinion is questionable or wrong, is not the primary goal. Most things do involve opinion, but opinion needs to qualify itself with the possibility of error. Opinions expressed as 'this is a fact' fail to do this.

You seem to have a misapprehension of scientific knowledge. Science does indeed predict the future with a high degree of certainty. Those trips to the moon we made? That science stemmed from the 1930s. The people who built those missions had a high degree of certainty in their knowledge. The same thing has been done to recordable media. We know about tapes, hard drives, and CDs because scientists have studied these devices and learned their characteristics. We don't know much about DVDs. I suspect the reason is that we would not like that knowledge if it were released. However, we are stuck with that technology for the moment. We are well advised to be aware of the pitfalls and have a plan in place to work around them.

I don't hate HDDs. If you are really a kid, then I was using them and appreciating them before you were born. I LOVE the idea of an uncompressed video and audio stream going to a hard drive rather than tape. I just can't yet afford that technology. I also haven't figured out what I would do with that data once I had it. What I don't like is folks misrepresenting hard drive technology. Claiming that it is something that it really is not. Claiming, for example, that present day consumer HDD cameras deliver high quality. These devices MUST compress in order to work. That means lower quality. They also present backup issues and costs which are the same as those of the higher quality devices I described. Failing to acknowledge these difficulties, IMCO, is misrepresenting them.

Emotional diatribes and characterizations do not add to the debate.

that I said any format was for "fact" the best format available. And I don't see how anyone can predict the future (ummm....because it hasnt come yet!!!). Anyway, I'm done arguing with you because I'm going to use my time wisely by helping others who need help instead of wasting my time arguing with you. BTW, my member name, I guess, misled you. I am in fact 30 years old and there is a reason for my member name that I don't feel like telling the whole story. Good luck, and keep posting your OPINIONS to others and I will keep posting mine to others.

Argument over..... >

a gentleman asked me earlier why didn't I consider MiniDV, which I briefly did but I just didn't have a 'feel' of how on earth will it work.
Went to a shop and the sales told me just connect the MiniDV Handycam to the compueter and select "Import"
But I'm unsure how (what files will turn out) after importing and are there many video editing software that supports it.
Also I've never handled a MiniDV solution before

But I really like the idea of having no quality loss