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TVs & Home Theaters forum

General discussion

Dual subwofe VS single Sub JBL venue 12" VS Velodyne DSP-12B

by inni121 / August 22, 2006 6:51 AM PDT

first which sub is better the JBL 12" SUB12 from the Venue series for 549.99 + tax canadian (northridge series replacement)
http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10073274&catid=
or Velodyne DSP-12b for 599.99 + tax canadian
http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10049371&catid=

i am also considering a dual sub setup using two of the above (same ones of course)

room size is not big, so dual sub seems overkill, and expensive, but just curious if anyone have done this and what you people think
both go down to about 25Hz so they are not the best subs out there, but best for the money ? maybe

thanx MindMelt

Discussion is locked
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overkill

I have a Atlantic Technology 272PBM 12" 185 watt sub my room is 22ft. by 19ft. room and the bass is amazing and powerful,and since bass in non directional adding another sub would just be overkill stewee

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YOU DON'T BOTHER, ONE SUB WILL BE JUST FINE!!!
by Riverledge / August 22, 2006 8:34 AM PDT

BOTH choices are very good picks. Choose one. OVERKILL
is an understatement.

river.

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please...LISTEN TO THEM BEFORE YOU BUY
by masterying01 / August 22, 2006 10:06 AM PDT

i've only delt with the JBL "regular people" subs so i'll only comment on them. we just did a side by side of the e250p and venue 12 inch subs from jbl and the venu was great....but there are a lot of other subs out there which are better.

ihmo (just opinion) jbl subs are perfect for music...but if you want to watch movies and be able to "feel" AND hear the bass...there are much better options out there. no matter what we did, we couldnt get a clear and crisp "umph" from the jbl subs...while the klipsch synergy series sub-12 just blew it out of the water. the jbl's are front firing while the klipsch are downfiring...i think (not 100% sure) that was probably why.

they're great subs....but dont limit yourself by what one place carries.

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My experience with Velodyne
by pn56matt / August 22, 2006 1:12 PM PDT

I had the Velodyne CHT-12 and was thoroughly impressed with it's HT quality. It wasn't a very musical sub, but for the $400 I paid, I wasn't going to find that. The DPS is the newer version and comes with four preset listening modes which may do the trick. For the price ($500 Canadian), I think you'll be happy. I haven't had too much experience with the JBL line, I know it is very well liked, especially for the price. Peace

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Well.....
by RoadRunner6 / August 22, 2006 3:15 PM PDT

.....If you insist on one of these two then I would go with the Velodyne.

Two subs is more important if you have variable listening positions and at one position there is very little bass. This can happen due to room acoustic problems. Adding a second sub can spread out the ''sweet spot'' throughout more of the room. Probably not going to be as much of a potential problem in a small to medium size room.

I would concentrate on one sub and placing it in the correct location. I don't agree on listening to subs in dealers rooms because what you hear is very dependent on their location. If you audition sub A and sub B in a dealer's soundroom and find that sub A sounds better, there is a very good chance if you reverse the location of the two subs that now sub B will sound better. A sub in the middle position of a wall will almost always sound poorly. The only way to compare two subs in a soundroom is to have them side by side and then reverse them and listen again (find a saleperson willing to do this, ha).

This is why, especially with subs, I rely on professional reviews. They set them up in the best location and test them with lots of varying music and frequencies. The tested results can tell a lot. Two subs might list a spec of -3dB at 27Hz for example. One might actually test out down to 25Hz at -3dB and the other one down to 30 at -3dB, big difference.

I know you have said you will not consider online buying. Pitty! There is absolutely no reason for this. In fact, many realize especially with subs that HSU, SVS and Outlaw Audio make subs that are far superior to anything you can get at a local dealer for anywhere near the same price (sorry, Masterying01...you can sell the other stuff).

At least look at the reviews on the Outlaw LFM-1 $579US or LFM-1 Plus sub. Will be much cheaper even in Canada than the two you were willing to buy. Neither of the above are in the same league with the LFM-1. At least read the reviews and you will learn a lot about sub setup and location.

http://www.outlawaudio.com/reviews/reviews_lfm1.html

http://audioreview.com/cat/speakers/subwoofers/outlaw-audio/PRD_289781_2741crx.aspx

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/setup/loudspeakers/crawlingforbasssubwooferpl.php

RR6

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well i read the reviews, and....
by inni121 / August 22, 2006 6:35 PM PDT
In reply to: Well.....

i am picking the velodyne because it has blue lights that match the blue lights on my receiver...HAHAHAHA umm NO!!

Just kidding Wink

Well as far as i can tell at this price range ($400 - $600 Canadian) you cant get an "audiophile" quality 12" sub. From the reviews i took in that the velodyne is a slightly beter sub because it sounds a little tighter, a little louder (SPL), and looks better, it is arguable which sub extends lower than 25Hz and +/-3 dB.

I have also found the Klipsch Synergy Sub-12 to be a comparable subwoofer, but it is built quite differently, so i need someone (hhmm hhmmmm RR6) to tell me if what i am about to point out makes a difference:

the Velodyne DPS-12":
- front firing woofer using a front firing SLOT (rectangular) bass reflex system
-uses a 200w/continious, 400w/dynamic P-Amp
-weighs in at around 58 pounds

the klipsch Synergy Sub-12" :
-Down firing woofer with a 4.5" dia. rear-firing port
-uses a 300w/continious 650w/dynamic P-Amp
-weighs in at around 40 pounds

also the klipsch goes down to about 24Hz at +/-3dB while the velodyne is rated at 25Hz at +/-3dB. Not a huge difference but worth a note

main concern is placement against a wall and floor type, i have hardwood floor so the downfiring woofer is not affected (klipsch), but one reviewer noted that the sub sounded worse on carpet, so he put a 3/4 MDF board under it and heard an improvement, also the rear firing port scares me away from the klipsch, i beleive the front ported velodyne will produce more !umph! rolling the bass off to the floor and towards the listening area.

Thanks, MindMelt

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58 versus 40 lbs.....
by RoadRunner6 / August 23, 2006 12:46 AM PDT

.....there is a reason for the difference in weight. No it doesn't prove anything but it sure points in that direction.

Again I would not put much faith in the stated specs. Certainly no audible difference in one Hz. I would doubt that either one of them gets to 25Hz, only down -3dB.

Downfiring versus front firing is not a good reason to break a tie in my opinion, there are excellent subs using both designs. The Outlaw is downfiring and certainly the superior sub here.

So I would go for the Velodyne.

RR6

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What about harominic distortion????
by jcrobso / August 23, 2006 1:37 AM PDT
In reply to: 58 versus 40 lbs.....

At first I wasn't going to respond to this posting, I did find it interesting. I don't use a sub and haven't spent a lot of time listening to them. But as I read the posts, I noticed that no one was talking distortion.
MindMelt has JBL main speakers, JBL speakers have very low distortion. Maybe one of the reason that the JBL subs sound better on music is beacuse they have low distortion.
This is just me, but I would take low distortion over "just thump" any day.
Speakers are a very personal thing, our friend from BBY is correct go listen to them. John

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THD has nothing to do with sound quality.
by gabereyes / August 24, 2006 1:12 PM PDT

THD is only one stat and in most cases THD is lower then the human hearing anything under 1%.

Velodyne is a SUB company this is there main focus, so the time and detail also the accuracy of there sub's is better then JBL aka Harmonkardon or Infinity speaker lower level speakers.

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"THD has nothing to do with sound quality."?????????????????
by jcrobso / August 26, 2006 1:56 PM PDT

Realy?????? Have you ever seen THD spec for a speaker or an IM distortion figure????
While amp distortion is way below .5% thies days, speaker distortion is not. Fgures of 2~5% THD and/or IM distortion are quite common in speakers!!! Espically subs, the low bass is very difficult to produce at high levles with low distortion. John

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Yes Velodyne seems the better choice for the price
by inni121 / August 23, 2006 5:41 AM PDT
In reply to: 58 versus 40 lbs.....

I just have a few more questions

The bass responce of my JBL E90's is not bad going down to 36Hz (as per JBL specs), and i know that the rule of thumb is to use the 80Hz cross over, i am just wondering if a 50Hz cross over would yield a better defenition to the bass ? since the JBL's should be able to keep up withe the Velodyne above 50 Hz

also the cross over on the sub can either be disabled or set to something like 120Hz. I am wondering if it should be left at any of those two frequencies (obviously higher than the receiver's crossover point)? just to protect the sub from any anomolious frequency spikes, i am not sure if that even happens, just an idea, i THINK the receiver has better filters so this will not happen

also i have heard u (RR6) saying that ALL speakers should be set to small to ensure 100% of the LFE gets to the Subwoofer, so if that is done then the cross over must be 80Hz, no lower. Now, since i think that the JBL's can keep up with the sub i dont want the cross over to make the subwoofer seem localized, i want the system to blend in and with my eyes closed i dont want to be able to tell where the subwoofer is, thus the speakers bass responce would help, i think

i may be wrong, so all corrections are welcome

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_3/feature-article-multiple-crossovers-9-2002.html
this reading point to the 80Hz cross over and it makes sense, but a 50 Hz cross over could be a good experiment!

thanks, Mindmelt

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(NT) (NT) Nice link,, good info. John
by jcrobso / August 23, 2006 6:33 AM PDT
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Subs
by RoadRunner6 / August 23, 2006 4:19 PM PDT

I will print out your link and read it tomorrow at work when I have more time, thanks.

However, you have got my words wrong. I said all the speakers that the poster listed should be set to small, not ALL SPEAKERS as a general statement.

Experimenting with the crossover setting is part of the fun. In the case of the E90's I would probably try 60-80Hz. I think you will find that the actual frequency response in your room does not meet the stated specs (very few do), more likely that the E90's are flat to about 45-50Hz and down -3dB at about 40-45Hz. You can if you want set the speakers to ''large'', but your receiver amps will be strained and I don't think it will sound as good (clean).

I don't agree that the E90's bass will keep up with the Velodyne between 50 and 80Hz. One reason is that the Velodyne has its own dedicated amp. It only has to produce the sub's frequencies. The amp in your receiver strains the hardest to produce the bass frequencies like the 50-80Hz range. That is one of the reasons for crossing over at 80Hz instead of 40 or 50Hz.

Most decent subs (not sure about this exact Velodyne) have a crossover bypass setting so that you can use the crossover on the receiver. You would then ignore the crossover dial on the sub.

The bass that is redirected from the main speakers to the sub is different than the LFE bass, which mainly is special effects bass. The LFE bass which is the ''.1'' part of the 5.1 signal on the source is automatically sent to the sub when you have the sub setting in the reciever to ''on.'' It does not go thru the main speakers unless you tell the reciever that you have no sub.

The normal soundtrack bass is what we are talking about when setting the crossover on the receiver. When setting, for example, the crossover at 80Hz, presuming you have the speaker set to ''small'', the bass below 80Hz will be redirected from that speaker to the sub. This is not the LFE bass.

Normally setting the crossover at 80Hz or less, you will not be able to tell the location of the sub. Now understand, this does not mean that you will not be able to tell the location of the source of this bass in your room. You actually will. The reason is that besides the fundamental bass frequency produced, the instrument producing this bass also produces harmonic frequencies that are octaves above the fundamental frequency.

Let's presume that you have a full size accoustic bass in a jazz band. It is on the left in the recording ten feet behind the singer. Let's also presume that your subwoofer is crossed over at 80z and is located behind your seat and to the right. When the bass produces a 50Hz tone it also produces harmonics at 100Hz, 200Hz, 400Hz, etc.

The reason your ears/brain are able to locate the bass instrument on the left and to the rear is that because the front speakers are producing the 100, 200 ,400Hz, etc. tones which give you the location clues. The sub is producing the 50Hz tone but you can't tell where it is located because the 50Hz tone is not location identifiable to our ears.

Hope this helps.

RR6

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PS
by RoadRunner6 / August 23, 2006 5:40 PM PDT
In reply to: 58 versus 40 lbs.....

The Outlaw LFM-1 sub with 12" woofer weighs 70lbs! The LFM-2 smaller sub with 8" woofer (that I am ordering for my relatively small condo) weighs 37lbs, almost as heavy as that 12" 40lb Klipsch sub.

Can you say quality?

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I auditioned both 10" and 12 " velodynes today
by inni121 / August 24, 2006 6:36 AM PDT
In reply to: PS

wasnt bad, i didnt like the placement in the showroom so i think it will sound even better at home, going to wait until laybourday long weekend, (last weekend of august because i know they will have sales on HT stuff)

but while i was there i picked up a SINGLE JBL E60 BRAND SPANKIN NEW for 49.96 + tax, yes thats not a typo, 50 bucks got me an E60

i am thinking of using it as a center channel, would that work? placement is a nightmare, have to somehow put it behing the TV on some kind of a rack so that the tweeter and the midrange would be visible and audible, not blocked by the TV

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also i found two E60 towers but with replaced tweeters
by inni121 / August 24, 2006 8:56 AM PDT

i mean i know you should not mix and match but since these use a midrange and a woofer, the tweers should sound similar

the replacements are soft dome / silk tweeters, but JBL's original tweeters are titanium laminate

for a pair of these E60's i can pay 99.99 + tax

will they match my E90 towers and the E60 center i already have ?

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Perfect Match
by RoadRunner6 / August 24, 2006 4:44 PM PDT

Sound wise that is a pefect match for the E90 since it has the same tweeter, 4'' mid and 8'' woofer as the E90. The voicing should be almost identical. Even a better match than the center channel models in that series.

Obviously the placement is the problem. Can you jack up the TV higher so that the E60 center channel can be placed directly in front of the screen?

RR6

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well, what i have done so far is...
by inni121 / August 24, 2006 5:27 PM PDT
In reply to: Perfect Match

i laid down the e60 sideways on a component rack and put my small tv on top of it, the system is in my bedroom now

i am thinking of getting a slim hdtv later on (a lot later on) and putting the e60 behinf it but making sure to raise it in order not to block the woofers.

i also have posted something earlier, i am not sure if u saw, basically i have found another TWO e60's which were just refubrished, the tweetes have been replaced. strangely enough JBL desided to put in 3/4" SOFT DOME silk tweeters. They look silver in colour and fit into the existing EOS waveguide the current tweeters are in in this series.

i can get them for about $80-100 + tax(14% here in ontario) a pair for surrounds, then my system would look sick, add a Velodyne DPS-12 soon as well

what do you think? Different tweeters a big problem, i know what you are going to say... but i think as long as the midranges are the same, its ok

thanks

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E60's
by RoadRunner6 / August 24, 2006 5:55 PM PDT

Make sure in your final setup you have that E60 for the center channel in the vertical position. If possible, put the TV up high enough (the center speaker would be directly underneath the TV) that the leading edge of the E60 center channel is equal with or slightly forward (an inch or two) of the leading edge of the TV. If you have the center behind the TV, even though the TV is high, some of the vertically dispersed sound from the E60 will bounce off the back of the TV, affecting the sound.

It is much more important for the tweeters to match. The mids matching is nice but not as critical. However, the difference in the tweeters here will probably not be so bad since it is in the surrounds. The main problem I see, it is nice to have the surround speakers up several feet above ear level (this is mainly for the tweeters amd mids). Can you find any smaller Northridge series like the E10, E20, E30 or E50's that would allow you to have them up 5-7 feet from the floor and on the side walls? If not then it would be good to get the E60 surrounds up on a platform of some kind.

RR6

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yes this is a challange
by inni121 / August 27, 2006 6:22 AM PDT
In reply to: E60's

i have not done this yet becaue i am really busy lately, but i will try this, i have to find osmekind of an old shelf that i can put under my Tv to stand it up higher

this will take time
thanx

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MY PERSONAL FAVOURITE IS THE KLIPSCH.........
by Riverledge / August 24, 2006 10:03 AM PDT

SEE if there is a way to audition these three different subs at your home before your final purchase.

river.

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