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Don't know how to title this, but. . .

by Coryphaeus / July 16, 2006 10:44 AM PDT

Can a good Muslim be a good American?

I sent that question to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years.

The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of Arabia.

Religiously - no. Because no other eligion is accepted by his Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quran (Koran).

Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of America, the great Satan.

Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist.

Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no. Because when we declare ''one nation under God,'' the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran's 99 excellent names.

Therefore after much study and deliberation.... perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot be both ''good'' Muslims and good Americans.

Call it what you wish.... it's still the truth.

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(NT) (NT) well said just wait for the pc crowd
by Mark5019 / July 16, 2006 10:54 AM PDT
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I got the same note from a friend this morning
by danlashea / July 16, 2006 11:20 AM PDT

I responded with this:

I responded with this:

You know I think about this all time - Like I am sure many Americans do. And as much as I hate to admit it I have become suspicious of all Muslims. I am not sure that all of these are correct, though. Twenty years ago I was enjoying the study of Islam for study's sake. There was a long period of time in early Islam that the peoples of the religion embraced others, welcomed them into their midst. It was science under early Islam that gave us so much of mathematics and medicine. They were the first to recognize the need for separation of illness types in hospitals. Many things began to change during the crusades and the Ottoman rule. Christians, unfortunately, slaughtered thousands of Muslims out of fear and greed so I can understand, to a degree, why many Muslims distrust Christians. Most of that happened a thousand years ago, though, and times have changed. I would like to know more from more liberal clerics about some of these interpretations and not just the thoughts of men who may have, and probably have, corrupted so much of the Qur'an. I have known a few people of the faith that teach the need of acceptance of others and feel that the Qur'an teaches that a holy war is a sin unless it's due to a direct attack. I think the simple platitudes below are far too simple to be taken at face value as I know for certain there are places in the Qur'an that directly dispute some of these items. Unfortunately, Muhammad and Jesus aren't here to correct our interpretations of our respective religious verses - only men, of various intentions, of good and evil, to guides us either directly or indirectly. What would Jesus do? I think that is maybe a good question for Muslims for Muhammad. From many things I know if Muhammad in history he may well be rolling over in his grave - or sobbing from hell. Chances are he was also a pedophile if you believe some history.

Regardless, I don't trust any of them now either. What a crying shame and what a way to have to live for all of us. Lord help us...

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The slaughter was went both directions
by Steven Haninger / July 17, 2006 3:29 AM PDT

and it wasn't a religious thing so much as just how war was raged regardless of the peoples at it. I will go so far as to say that those on both sides of the swords were probably neither Christian or Muslim in their most fervent beliefs but by edict of whatever ruler they were under at any given time.

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Can a good Muslim be a good American?
by grin_n_bare / July 16, 2006 4:28 PM PDT
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That long article.
by James Denison / July 16, 2006 6:03 PM PDT

He was doing good till he got to the solution. He misses the obvious from all his ramblings. The only thing that changes Islam and makes them seek a new direction is when they face complete, total humiliation and defeat.

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(NT) (NT) perfect read for 2min hate break
by WOODS-HICK / July 16, 2006 9:17 PM PDT
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Hate break for who?
by Coryphaeus / July 16, 2006 9:49 PM PDT

I hope you aren't referring to Americans.

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you tell me; buddhists?
by WOODS-HICK / July 16, 2006 10:10 PM PDT
In reply to: Hate break for who?

?The program of the Two Minutes Hate varied from day to day, but there was none in which Goldstein was not the principal figure. He was the primal traitor, the earliest defiler of the Party?s purity. All subsequent crimes against the Party, all treacheries, acts of sabotage, heresies, deviations, sprang directly out of his teaching? (p. 13).

http://www.novelguide.com/1984/toptenquotes.html

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You've lost me. . .
by Coryphaeus / July 16, 2006 10:45 PM PDT

What does your quote and link have to do with my post?

And I see no hate anywhere in my post. Just plain facts. If you equate facts to hate you have other issues.

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oh, it was inspirational
by WOODS-HICK / July 16, 2006 10:50 PM PDT
In reply to: You've lost me. . .

Therefore after much study and deliberation.... perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot be both ''good'' Muslims and good Americans.

Call it what you wish.... it's still the truth.

Posted by: coryphaeus (see profile) - 07/16/2006 5:44 PM
Report offensive post

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Was there something in the piece that was not accurate?
by EdH / July 16, 2006 11:01 PM PDT

if so, what was it?

Otherwise,what is your complaint? Namecalling is not helpful, though it seems to be what you do most of the time.

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name calling? where
by WOODS-HICK / July 17, 2006 12:44 AM PDT

I do not know are they facts? I did not dispute truth or fiction.

are you delusional? that is a question. not a label. do you see something unspoken? that is a question. not a label. stay focused.

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"perfect read for 2min hate break"
by EdH / July 17, 2006 12:55 AM PDT
In reply to: name calling? where

The implication is clear. If it's a "hate break" someone is doing some hating. But you knew that.

I am not delusional. Are you?

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no
by WOODS-HICK / July 17, 2006 7:04 AM PDT

I am not delusional am I? I agree with you that the implication of the beginning post was to instill fear and mistrust of american citizens that practice islam.

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I stated no opinion about the OP either way...
by EdH / July 17, 2006 7:25 AM PDT
In reply to: no

so I don't know how you "agree" with me.

No, you're not delusional. Not at all. Not even a little bit.

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Can a "good American" work for a "good Muslim?" for 20 years
by JP Bill / July 17, 2006 12:56 AM PDT
I sent that question to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years.

I'm guessing your friend is a good American.
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A note of caution
by Angeline Booher / July 17, 2006 1:45 AM PDT

My city has the largest Kurd population in the USA. They are not radicals.

How about Muhammed Ali ? He lit the torch at an Oyllmpics, and was cheered by Americans.

How about Kareem Abdul Jabar? Looked upon as having brought onor to his sport.

How about the US soldiers who are Muslim who are fighting in the Middle East? Didn't they answer the call of this country.

Yes, there are those like Louis Farrakhan who are radicals. But haven't we had the same with such gurus as Jim Jones?

Sure, the article is correct about some Muslim countries being ruled by fanatics. But Islam is the largest religion in the world, and they don't all live in those countries.

Yes, we've had some citizens born in Middle East and other Muslim countires who have joined cells out to do us harm and to kill.

Thus I believe we need to be very careful in painting all Muslims with the same brush. This country declares freeedom of religion, and to start claiming the vast majority as out to get us is dangerous.

We saw what happened with the spreading of suspicion against the Jewish population by the nazis.

So let's be careful about fanatics/radicals being considered representative of the majority of the believers.

I haven't heard of any lawsuits being filed by American Muslims who object to saluting our flag and saying "under God", or taking down the Ten Commandments from in front of courthouses, or being offended by Christmas trees or carols or menorahs.

Angeline
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email
semods4@yahoo.com

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Good point, Angeline!
by danlashea / July 17, 2006 2:46 AM PDT
In reply to: A note of caution

I wish that I knew more about the Qur'an so I could make better first hand solutions. The best I have done though is absorb a few historical facts and the ones you bring to the table are salient to say the least. Yes, painting an entire people or religion with one brush is dangerous, probably unfair and I am sure does not provide for a good picture.

Unfortunately, I remain suspicious and suspicion is not an indictment. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of Muslims fighting for the US all over the middle east as well as many more soldiers in support capacity here at home. I also won't forget the many natives of middle eastern, war torn countries, that lay their lives on the line for us every day as interpreters, laborers, guides and voices of reason. god bless them all!

Never the less, I recall the one American Muslim soldier that threw hand grenades into tents killing and wounding many in an act of deadly descent for the American invasion of a Muslim country. We trusted that soldier. Whom should we trust now and how should we establish that level of trust.

I want to leave my doors unlocked at night but I dare not even during the day because I know that true evil people do not have to avoid the sun like a fictional Dracula. By the same token I will not necessarily trust even an American born Muslim because I know his allegiance to Ala has a high probability of trumping his allegiance to the United States or a truly loving God and for that I want to weep.

I will not weep, though. Not because of weakness but because weeping is a distraction from a vigilant watch. And if we don't watch more of us can and probably will die than if we had kept a close eye on our brothers and sisters.

How can I trust a Muslim if not by the oath one took to protect and preserve the constitution of the United States. I do not know and that is the danger. I hate it.

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Yours is the voice of reason.
by Angeline Booher / July 17, 2006 4:14 AM PDT
In reply to: Good point, Angeline!

Those who have attacked the US and other countries have defined themselves as Muslims, pledged to kill as many infidels as possible. IMO, it is acceptable to be judiciously alerts and aware.

I have heard interviews with Muslims who say that the fanatics are using the Koran in a skewered interpreation. There are some similarties in the Koran and Bible.

Radicalism and fanaticism are dangerous, and not limited to Muslims. We can't forget McVeigh, the Aryan nation, KuKlux Klan, and other such hate groups in the US. I'll probably draw fire from this statement, but I feel a tad nervous by the clandestine militias scattered about this country.

Sure, I look around the passengers waiting to board my plane. When I see women dressed in Middle Eastern dress while I am shopping, I do wonder if they are in support of terrorists, or are giving them safe haven. I, too, hate that world events have led me to this.

Your post made good sense, Dan!

Angeline
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email
semods4@yahoo.com

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Balderdash, Spittle and Spoo
by duckman / July 17, 2006 8:34 AM PDT
In reply to: A note of caution

And that?s not just the lawyers I have on retainer. Ali and Jabbar are NOT good examples. They did not grow in Muslim communities being brainwashed into hating Jews and Americans for no other reason than they should hate them. Americans who convert don?t do it so much as to follow Allah, but rather reject ?Whitey? and America. You must have missed that ?good? Muslim in the NBA several years ago that would turn his back during the National Anthem. Not al; Muslims are trying to kill the infidels, but the Muslim beliefs and way of life are not compatible to Western values and freedoms. Bottom line, as a group or society, I don't trust Muslims

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Then why are we sending our ...
by xerpor / July 17, 2006 4:47 PM PDT

Young men and women to Iraq to die for them? And spending billions and billions of dollars. And not making any head way. For people we can't trust and that hate us?


Sad

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It's called ''Big Picture''
by duckman / July 17, 2006 9:53 PM PDT

And I don't trust them in our society. What we are doing there is in OUR best interest.

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The big picture
by xerpor / July 18, 2006 9:13 AM PDT

The mood of this thread, indeed according to what you say, the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim. This should make you dance in the street:

U.N.: 14,000 Iraqis killed in 2006

It's the big picture I need help with ...

I don't understand how our invasion of Iraq was in OUR best interest, so far I don't see any benefits, unless you count the fat cats supplying the military making money hand over fist. For us peons price of everything is skyrocketing, our treasury is being drained, as a Nation we have lost creditability all over the world, other nations (our enemies?) are developing or buying nuclear arms at breakneck speed in an effort to protect themselves from us. The worst of these North Korea HAS nuclear weapons that supposedly can reach the US and yet we didn't chose to invade them.

I of course know about the oil in Iraq but is THAT our only benefit? The US will never control Iraq if that is their intent. If the intention was to destroy their army there wasn't much of one to begin with. If our intention was to create chaos and more Islamic militant groups in the middle east we have successed! But how does that benifit us?

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wasnt much of an army??
by Mark5019 / July 18, 2006 9:28 AM PDT
In reply to: The big picture

boy you were missled saddam had one of the best guard units
of course when they meet supperior trained troops they got there asses whupped.

and how many of those deaths are from there own and the insurgants? you for got them didnt you?


why we went in ask the un and all the other countryies about saddams refusals to cooperate?

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ASSININE RESPONSE
by duckman / July 18, 2006 8:46 PM PDT
In reply to: The big picture

Yours that is.

"The mood of this thread, indeed according to what you say, the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim. This should make you dance in the street:"

Hope you stretched REALY well before making that ASSININE jump in logic

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The big picture
by xerpor / July 19, 2006 6:45 AM PDT
In reply to: ASSININE RESPONSE

If I misread the meaning in your words I'm sorry.

However, I would still like to know our benefits from invading Iraq. Serious. I fail to see any. At least none that would justify the deaths of thousands of our young men and women, billions of dollars and the tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi lives.

Sad

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just ask who's killing
by Mark5019 / July 19, 2006 7:30 AM PDT
In reply to: The big picture

the civilians not the troops, and under saddam it was the guard

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What's your source for this?
by Dan McC / July 17, 2006 5:52 AM PDT

It has echoes of the smears against catholics when Kennedy ran.

Dan

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How does that
by Dan McC / July 17, 2006 11:54 PM PDT

show what cor's source is?

Dan

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