Thank you for being a valued part of the CNET community. As of December 1, 2020, the forums are in read-only format. In early 2021, CNET Forums will no longer be available. We are grateful for the participation and advice you have provided to one another over the years.

Thanks,

CNET Support

General discussion

Doh! Did I make a mistake on this Ebay auction?

Sep 14, 2004 12:30PM PDT

I feel like a fool for even posting this, but I was looking at some ebay items, and saw this combo kit:

"New AMD Athlon XP 2800+ 333 FSB 512 K L2 Cache Socket A CPU in Retail Box
AND
New ECS N2U400-A Motherboard
nForce2 Ultra 400 Chipset, AGP 8X, 6 Channel Audio, Support Dual Channel DDR400 Memory in Retail Box
Brand New! Not Refurbished! Never Used!"

I won the bid for $144.48. The Athlon chip goes for $140 retail on newegg. The ECS (jumperless) supports a 400 Mhz FSB and goes for $40-$50 depending on where you buy from, and got really good reviews.

I really don't NEED this setup, and kinda feel I did good getting the chip and highly reviewed mobo for less than the chip retail. Having just upgraded my daughter's system because of a blown motherboard with a Biostar P4VMA-M motherboard and a 2.8 intel Duron, I kinda feel like I tossed some $$ out the window (not to mention what I'm gonna say to my wife,lol). I can always pop the chip into my existing system that has an XP2000+ chip w/a FSB of 266 and upgrade my ram to 333 FSB for a little speed boost. But after a dialogue here with Ray Harinec here, we both kinda agreed it wasn't worth my upgrading to a 2500 Barton that he was offering for sale. I guess I can try to sell the ECS board on Ebay (never have sold on Ebay, only bought) to recoup a few bux, may bundle my 2000+ chip too. I've kinda put off my AMD 64 upgrade for awhile, while waiting for the chip prices to come down a bit. I have to admit I wasn't paying attention too well during the bid cuz I was looking up reviews on the ECS board (all very good), and bid a a couple of bux above the last bid (kinda leaving it up to the pc gods), and before I knew it, I won the bid! Oy! So I guess I'm asking- what others would do in my place; swap out chips, sell the ECS board, resell the whole kit, sell the board and my old 2000+ chip. Or you can just tell me I was an idiot for not paying attention. Assuming this is in fact a retail chip as advertised, it's not the end of the world (until my wife finds out), but now I'd have to spend some bux on pc 2700 ram to get the 333 FSB. I normally don't buy chips from Ebay, especially from a seller with a short history. I did pay for the item with a credit card, so I feel somewhat protected should things go wrong. fwiw, here the link to the sale:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6707423784 Doh! I do feel like an idiot at the moment. Would appreciate opinions, good, bad or ugly, lol.

Discussion is locked

- Collapse -
Re: I'll be watching. BUT
Sep 23, 2004 9:04AM PDT
And again if you don't get a socket 939 A64 as opposed to the socket 754 or 940[ which is older than the 939, but I'm not sure that they ever released the 940] I would think that you are missing the point of why that socket type is really the only solution for using the lower cost CPU of that socket type.

Do you mean that by using the 939 I'd be "future-proofing", as the 754s are on their way out? That's my take on the situation.

Well, I spoke to my tech guy, and he's telling me I still should wait. At this point, I don't know what I should do. I still have the ECS board and 2800 Barton from the ebay guy; spoke to him, and he's trying to figure out how I should get the stuff back to him (or he's probably trying to stay outta trouble with his boss). If I had an extra case, I'd probably slap the motherboard and cpu in. The ECS board supports a 400 Mhz fsb, but the 2800 Barton only goes up to 333. So, I'm thinking, maybe I should get a case, 512-1 gig of pc3200 ram, and simply wait for the prices of both motherboards and A64 chips to go down. I've been reading so much about the A64s, compatible boards, and now the PSUs even have me confused. I can't be quoted verbatim about the 12v rail, could have been something like 20(something)amps, volts, I'm not sure.

So, again, how much of a speed bump you think I'd get going from a 2000+ @266 FSB to 2800+ @333 FSB (w/double the cache @ 512)? Mebbe I can cut a deal with the ebay vendor to just keep the Barton chip, as I have no use for the ECS board. My existing Asus board (which I really like) supports 333 fsb. I figure I'd get pc3200 ram anyway, as I'd probably need it for the future A64 system.

And here's something new: if you look at the tigerdirect site, you'll see all the A64s "with 1600 Mhz FSB". I looked at a few compatible boards with K8T800 chipset, which I thought only supported a FSB of 800. So is this some kind of marketing ploy? I'm trying to make an intellegent decision (for once), but the more I read, the more frustrated I get. At the moment, I just want raw speed. My existing system has served me well, but it takes forever to render a video, and even with the upgrade to an FX5900 XT vid card, I figure the bottleneck must be the chip and my 266 FSB (and it REALLY bugs me that my daughter's system is faster on a micro-atx board with a 2.4 Celeron! (soon to be a 2.8; I pointed out to my techie, that Biostar recommends a 2.8; I spoke to Intel, and they suggested I go with the 2.8 cuz the voltage difference can ultimately fry the board AND chip. Aacck...this whole thing is giving me a migraine.
- Collapse -
Some discussion.
Sep 23, 2004 9:54AM PDT

As you now know the term FSB is essentially meaningless when the MCH is on the CPU die. Only the 939 socket standard 64's have Dual Channel MCH all earlier socket types standard CPU's were single channel only the FX [double the price] versions had dual channel for those socket types. [probably said this five times already]. Nothging wrong with your tech guys idea to wait. Wait too long and you'll be swamped with all the new hardware advances [DDR2, PCI Express, new chipsets from Intel, and the new BTX cases] then the choices would simply say FORGET IT LOL.

Remember the 800 MHz FSB chipset for mobo's was when they thought tha AMD might bring out a CPU that supports an 800 mHz interface. In the 64's when AMD put the MCH in the CPU, the mobo still supports an 800 MHz CPU, just none exist in The AMD CPU line but they do in Intel and a variant of that chipset is on mobo's for Intel CPU's. [although IMHO if I went Intel I would use an Intel Chipset]. The only original way that VIA and NVIDIA got their chipsets in mobo's for Intel CPU's was when Intel dogmatically insisted on sticking with Rambus memory. Intel tried unsuccessfully to stop VIA and NVIDIA from supporting Intel CPU's. Obviously Intel finally saw the light and went to DDR memory.

I have no feel for the speed bump. I only read about things and get input from a power user friend. I have never played a game on a PC .

Don't buy PC3200 RAM now unless you will use it at 200/400, because in the very near term you'll wantPC 3700 or even faster when you go for the A64. [although sometimes you can get the PC3200 at a lower price than the PC 2700. I got a 512 MB Mushkin 3200 for $75 from newegg a week ago. It's back up to $80. But it is only CL3. If you want to see what the better Mushkin CL2.5 or CL 2 look in the Mushkin site. DDR memory now when you get into the lower memory cycle latencies is a subject all unto itself. The faster stuff is far more expensive. What you are paying for at the cost of the memory and the mobo that can run it, is at most a 5% speed boost. Only the really avid gamers go for this stuff. Others with the money go for it to say they have the best while they may not even have the BIOS set to have the memory run at the lowest latency. Easy to get carried away.

There is no question that double the amount of L2 cache gives better speed.

I don't even bother to look at Tiger Direct anymore. Virtually all of there stuff is overstock they bought that didn't sell. The text that they state is often in error or pure BS IMHO.

- Collapse -
WELL....
Sep 24, 2004 9:01AM PDT

My techie doesn't have any 939 boards, and is having trouble getting getting ANY A64 chips from his supplier. He has ONE A64 2800 chip for a socket 754, and is still advising me to simply wait. So he's not stocking any 939 boards. If his shop is any barometer, it doesn't seem like his fairly large client base is running towards A64. He's doing quite well selling P4 systems.

I'm not that interested in pci Express and DDR2; I generally don't like first generation technologies, as there's always bugs to be worked out. I received an email from extremetech (I think), and the writer concluded that the AGP slot will be around for a few yrs. NVidia's SLI technology for vid cards has it's appeal mostly to hardcore gamers; not interested in that either. Don't care for SATA (as it is now), nor RAID- my brain is overtaxed as it is, and I don't want to spend time learning something I've happily lived w/out.

I just want a stable A64 system, with the attendent speed that comes along with it (at this rate, I just may go Intel :::gasp:::- but not seriously, as there's no 64 bit Intel chip ('cept for Xeon??)- but a part of me is also thinking, who knows when Longhorn will be released (not that I truly care, I believe to some degree that programmers will somehow write 64 bit programs that will somehow be 32 bit compatible. I'm thinking from a business standpoint- Intel has over 90% of the market on cpu's; Dell has the lion's share of the market on retail computers (most, if not all, with Intel processors)- what are all these people going to do if/when longhorn is released? Does MS really believe everyone is going to spend money on yet another version of Windows AND upgrade their processors? Doesn't compute well in my opinion.

I'm a HUGE AMD fan, but at what cost for an upgrade? I'm getting tired of spending in excess of a grand every year or so. SO- I'm heading off to newegg again (LOL) to see what kind of system I can theoretically put together. I really don't like the idea of buying motherboards online, as there seems to be a high RMA rate. I use newegg as a benchmark for prices, and the reviews can be informative. I look at tigerdirect to compare prices; once in a blue moon tiger will have the same product on sale. I bought 2 spindles of DVD+R discs at 1/2 the price newegg was selling at. And I do agree that Tiger's site is filled with BS. Well, I guess I'll just hurry up and wait- but getting VERY impatient; I'm upgrading my daughter's system with a 2.8 Celeron-D chip. Maybe I'll just swap out my hardware for hers, heh, heh. This chip can run at a 533 Mhz fsb if the box is to be believed; I don't even know what kind ram 533 is, lol

- Collapse -
I hope that you don't think that I was touting DDR2
Sep 24, 2004 10:30AM PDT

and PCI Express. I was simply pointing out that by waiting, whether you like it or not, they may become items that you might have to consider at the time when looking for the best performance.

I haven't heard of that many DOA's of mobo's. Lots of cases where it was the first time that the person had ever built a computer and made any one of the errors that can be made.

Good luck on your search for a computer to outperform your Daughter's. LOL I'll bet that she enjoys this.

- Collapse -
Not at all, Ray.
Sep 24, 2004 10:44AM PDT

I'm sure your point was to simply point out the possible benefits of waiting, and pointing out technologies I may not have known about.

LOL-my daughter (more importantly, my WIFE), has no idea what I'm doing computer-wise. They just know I'm constantly tinkering.

This is going to be an ongoing saga at this rate. I'M JUST REALLY ANNOYED THAT MY 11 YR. OLD DAUGHTER HAS A FASTER SYSTEM THAN I, AND ALL SHE DOES IS GO ON AOL! Arrrggh!

- Collapse -
To see a power supply which lists two +12volt
Sep 23, 2004 10:17AM PDT

outputs check in newegg for the Antec480 NeoPower. Just an example so you know how to find those with two 12 volt rails. DO NOT get confused with those that show a +12 v and then a - 12 volt @ 1 amp.

I picked this one for you to look at because of its other big feature, the cables. [active PFC is also a plus].

When you get into the big bucks get this one LOL

Just for info look at it pictures. All if the cables except the main power cable to the mobo are separate and plug in to the Power Supply. Thus you only use the cables for which you have use for. Saves beaucour cable clutter and allows more room for airflow in the case.

It's not cheap $115 after $15 immediate rebate LOL.

I would think that it will be the next advance in computer power supplies.

I put one of their true power 430's in a simple system and had a huge bundle of unused cables that I had a heckuva time keeping out of the way.

- Collapse -
Re: I'll be watching. BUT
Sep 23, 2004 10:43AM PDT

Well, with the A64 system you should win over your daughter's system with one hand tied behind your back. The beauty of the A64 is the "hyper-transport" which is suppose to take care of the i/o bottle-neck problem.

The 1600mhz maybe referring to the fx53 series (which is the most expensive and notice there are no mention of FSB at all. Just guessing here.

- Collapse -
Re: heh, heh,....You'll like this Ray....
Sep 21, 2004 10:55PM PDT

brandon i havent found the bench marks on pitstop can u supply link?

- Collapse -
They have a bunch in the $40 to $50 range.
Sep 21, 2004 10:35AM PDT

Be careful to not get microATX types [unless that's what you want]. Note that if you do a search on socket A types there are some non 400 higher priced than 400's . They are in increasing price, not increasing speed

- Collapse -
Re: They have a bunch in the $40 to $50 range.
Sep 21, 2004 11:00AM PDT

My daughter's Biostar P4VMA-M is a micro-atx with 5 pci and 1 AGP slot. Quite impressed with it's performance.

If the A64 prices remain steady, I may just say the heck with it and go for a P4; I was amazed at how simple it was in installing the heatsink/fan. As you know, with the AMDs, you practically push through the board to snap on the HS/fan. I'm surprised I haven't punched a hole in the mobo during my numerous upgrades.

Off to surf newegg, heh, heh.

- Collapse -
I know what you mean by almost punching
Sep 21, 2004 11:06AM PDT

through the mobo with the AMD's. Installed a P4 and it so much better.

The A64's have a heat spreader and internal themal control of some extent similar to Intels [it's about time]

- Collapse -
I just configured an A64 system at Monarch
Sep 21, 2004 1:59PM PDT

for an A64 3500+, MSI 939 board(forget which model), PSU, 1 gig Corsair ram, suggested thermal grease, and a Lian case. Cost? 2 grand! I'm gonna hafta rethink this whole thing, lol. No way am I gonna spend 2 grand for an "upgrade"!

So I may be back to square 1 with what my techie recommended: he likes the MSI K8T NEO-FSR 754 board, 2800 chip; not the MSI..Platinum(?) board I see on many other forums. He tests for stability first and foremost. I also need to make sure I get the right PSU, I've been reading you need "12v (or amps)on the [something] rail"- have NO idea what that means, lol. The more I read the more confused I get. I'm bound to upgrade w/in 2 yrs. or less judging from my past history. Who knows what Intel's gonna do? I just don't get why they're silent on a 64 bit chip. The ease of installing the heatsink is worth my switching sides, lol.

btw, got in touch with the vendor from ebay. He's gonna send me a prepaid ups box to send the stuff back to him.

- Collapse -
Re: I just configured an A64 system at Monarch
Sep 21, 2004 4:29PM PDT

Two grand sounds like one grand too much. I got my figure from here; www.mwave.com

- Collapse -
Re: I just configured an A64 system at Monarch-You have an
Sep 21, 2004 11:17PM PDT

Athlon 64 system, Art? What's your config? Did you simply upgrade, or buy a whole new system?

Y'know, the more I look at the seperate parts, and the cost of shipping, it very nearly equals the cost of complete systems my tech guy builds. I'd probably save myself major headaches by letting someone else do the work for me if I'm gonna spend roughly the same amount of $$.

- Collapse -
Re: I just configured an A64 system at Monarch-You have an
Sep 22, 2004 12:25AM PDT

No, I can afford an A64 system. I was just looking throught the catalog, lol. But I sure envied people who have speed system though.

- Collapse -
Re: I just configured an A64 system at Monarch
Sep 21, 2004 10:59PM PDT

the 12 conector installs directly to mother board its a square conector not the normal flat one that you conect hard drives etc.

- Collapse -
Re: I just configured an A64 system at Monarch
Sep 21, 2004 11:19PM PDT

Not sure which connector you're talking about Mark. I can't find the post I saw, but it was about the specs of the PSU. Something about 12v on the [something] rail. Don't know what it means, but saw a bunch of posts regarding that and the A64s.

- Collapse -
Re the power supply "rails"
Sep 22, 2004 1:27AM PDT

A rail [voltage regulator output]exists for each of the separate voltage regulators within the power supply ie +5 volts, 3.3 volts 12 volts [forget the minus voltages they are no longer used]. Each rail has large capacitors on it to absorb [filter] the noise created by instantaneous variations of the load current.

The CPU's a few years ago drew power from the 3.3 volt rail. Now they draw their power from the 12 rail The ATX 12V power supplies all have a 4 pin connector with 12 volts that plugs into a socket on the mobo near the CPU.

Many ATX 12V Power Supplies simply have this 12 volts connected to the same 12 volt regulator in the Power Supply that goes to the main power mobo connector for hard drives et al..

The problem is that the CPU puts a lot of noise and spikes on the 12 volt line while the other users put other noise on it.

Thus the better power Supplies have put two separate 12 volt regulators [rails] in the Power Supply. One feeds the 4 pin 12 volts to the CPU and the other feeds all of the other 12 volt loads. Then each noise source gets appropriate filtering without mixing the two, and can use smaller size capacitors..

- Collapse -
Re: Re the power supply "rails"
Sep 22, 2004 3:39AM PDT

Boy..I learned something here every day. The only rail I know of has to do with trains. In the old day it was just pie-network filters; now it's "rails". Yeah, I guess everything is passing me by like a train, lol.

- Collapse -
Hey Art. In 1962
Sep 22, 2004 4:47AM PDT

I inherited the job as the systems emgineer responsible for ground power supplies for the Wing 6 Minuteman missiles. Knew nothing about power supplies. Relied on the Power Supply design people to teach me. Never once heard them use the word rails.

Saw it the first time in these forums. Intel uses it in some of their specs when they describe the way the turn on is done in ATX systems.

I really do prefer Power Supply Output.

BTW it was the first use of switching power supplies in that system. Boy did we have a lot to learn. Never thought that switching supplies would get to be as good as they are now.

- Collapse -
1962...
Sep 23, 2004 10:54AM PDT

I think that was when I started working for Hughes Aircraft Co. as an electronic technician. It was about that time switching regulator come into being. Before that it was all analog stuff.

- Collapse -
The filters in the supply actually
Sep 22, 2004 4:55AM PDT

are LC. No problems with reliable L, the large capaciance electrolytic capacitors do deteriorate over time, plus there was the problem with the defective electrolyte material used due to an error in the theft of the formula for it that got used by many capacitor mfr's. None accept responsibility or will tell which batches the bad stuff was used in.

That problem seems to have passed for recently built equipment.

- Collapse -
Re: I just configured an A64 system at Monarch
Sep 22, 2004 4:47AM PDT

its a conector not the normal size conects directly to the mobo

- Collapse -
Art re 1962
Sep 23, 2004 11:18AM PDT

I was working at Autonetics in Anaheim, CA at that time a division of North American Aviation.
The rec center had indoor pool, two lighted manicured softball diamonds and a lighted Pitch and putt 18 hole golf course.

Came about when Ramo and Woolridge were at Hughes and established the "Engineer is King" philosophy.

I lived in Anaheim when Disneyland was built. Too dumb to invest in Real Estate, could have become rich. LOL

- Collapse -
I bet you would've too..
Sep 23, 2004 12:17PM PDT

if you started investing at that time. I didn't have such problem. I was working for peanut ($2.35/hr.). What kind of house can you get for that! Of course now even working for $23.50/hr. will not get much of a house either (especially in Pasadena); A house looks like a shack for $800 grand.

- Collapse -
Cameback east in 1967.
Sep 23, 2004 12:26PM PDT

Couldn't take the smog anymore. When I first moved there, each day I could see the snow capped mountains 60 miles away. When I left maybe could see them one or two times per year.

Went back on business a few times last in 1992. No desire to ever go back. The freeways at rush hour are unreal.

- Collapse -
Good..I am glad the myth lives on...
Sep 24, 2004 8:33AM PDT

and you you forgot the earthquake and forest fire, LOL.

- Collapse -
Re: Doh! Did I make a mistake on this Ebay auction?
Sep 24, 2004 2:35PM PDT

Considering the fact that i bought the same exact mobo combo 3 weeks ago from Fry's for 90.00, and the dual channel ram, (doubles your bandwith) for 45.00 each stick (must use two), i'd say: sell the 2 gig stuff and upgrade, already!

- Collapse -
I just may do that.
Sep 25, 2004 12:46AM PDT

This bundle must be popular (the 2800 + the ECS board), as I've seen it all over the net, 'specially at Fry's (but I read alotta rants about Fry's selling bad mobos.)

Well, I just may do that in the meantime. I just prefer to buy my motherboards from a local guy; if anything goes wrong, I'm too lazy to RMA stuff, send it back it wait for a replacement.

So, I still have the 2800 Barton and the ECS board (why would they sell a chip w/a 333 FSB when the board supports 400?) Anyway, if you've read through this long and tortuous post, you'd know that the ebay seller refunded my $$, BUT sent the stuff anyway. I've contacted him, and maybe we can work out a deal, or just pay him the $124, I had to eat the shipping of $20 as part of the refund. I figger, I got it, may as well use it while trying to figure out what to do.

My own system has an Asus A7V8X-X board that only runs up to a 333 FSB, so I just may pop the chip in there and upgrade the ddr 266 ram with pc3200; figure I can use the ram for a different upgrade. What I'll do with the ECS board, I dunno. Maybe sell it on ebay, lol. But you can get it online in some places for $29. Still, having the chip at that price isn't bad. Guess I'll have to make do. I'm tired of obsessing over this thing (and prob. tiring Ray out, lol.)

How's your system running, btw? What type of ram did you use?