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General discussion

Doh! Did I make a mistake on this Ebay auction?

Sep 14, 2004 12:30PM PDT

I feel like a fool for even posting this, but I was looking at some ebay items, and saw this combo kit:

"New AMD Athlon XP 2800+ 333 FSB 512 K L2 Cache Socket A CPU in Retail Box
AND
New ECS N2U400-A Motherboard
nForce2 Ultra 400 Chipset, AGP 8X, 6 Channel Audio, Support Dual Channel DDR400 Memory in Retail Box
Brand New! Not Refurbished! Never Used!"

I won the bid for $144.48. The Athlon chip goes for $140 retail on newegg. The ECS (jumperless) supports a 400 Mhz FSB and goes for $40-$50 depending on where you buy from, and got really good reviews.

I really don't NEED this setup, and kinda feel I did good getting the chip and highly reviewed mobo for less than the chip retail. Having just upgraded my daughter's system because of a blown motherboard with a Biostar P4VMA-M motherboard and a 2.8 intel Duron, I kinda feel like I tossed some $$ out the window (not to mention what I'm gonna say to my wife,lol). I can always pop the chip into my existing system that has an XP2000+ chip w/a FSB of 266 and upgrade my ram to 333 FSB for a little speed boost. But after a dialogue here with Ray Harinec here, we both kinda agreed it wasn't worth my upgrading to a 2500 Barton that he was offering for sale. I guess I can try to sell the ECS board on Ebay (never have sold on Ebay, only bought) to recoup a few bux, may bundle my 2000+ chip too. I've kinda put off my AMD 64 upgrade for awhile, while waiting for the chip prices to come down a bit. I have to admit I wasn't paying attention too well during the bid cuz I was looking up reviews on the ECS board (all very good), and bid a a couple of bux above the last bid (kinda leaving it up to the pc gods), and before I knew it, I won the bid! Oy! So I guess I'm asking- what others would do in my place; swap out chips, sell the ECS board, resell the whole kit, sell the board and my old 2000+ chip. Or you can just tell me I was an idiot for not paying attention. Assuming this is in fact a retail chip as advertised, it's not the end of the world (until my wife finds out), but now I'd have to spend some bux on pc 2700 ram to get the 333 FSB. I normally don't buy chips from Ebay, especially from a seller with a short history. I did pay for the item with a credit card, so I feel somewhat protected should things go wrong. fwiw, here the link to the sale:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6707423784 Doh! I do feel like an idiot at the moment. Would appreciate opinions, good, bad or ugly, lol.

Discussion is locked

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No, settle on the socket type [939 LOL] THEN
Sep 18, 2004 5:37AM PDT

the CPU that you can afford

Remeber 939 is the only way to get dual channel except for the FX51's

Go up to the AMD site. Download the "AMD Athlon 64 Processor Power and Thermal Data Sheet" a PDF file. It gives the info that you want and the exact part numbers for each. I presently have the June 04 version. Time to go up and get the updated version.

Congratulations on the Honorable mention. I never look at the email from CNET, delete it immediately. Maybe I'm missing something.

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I have a great idea, Ray!
Sep 19, 2004 11:49AM PDT

YOU get the socket 939, and report back. You have all the know-how, so you're the perfect person for this!

Last night, I spent about 4 hrs. on the net reading about socket types, chipsets, etc. and come to a couple of conclusions:

It's a mystery to everyone what the architecture of the A64's are, but they're really FAST; writers from mags like MaxPC, CPU, The Register, all think the 64 is the greatest thing since the wheel, fill pages in articles, but don't REALLY know why, except it's FAST, and beats Intel.

As you said, there's no FSB in the chip, but there's a memory controller in the higher-end chips!.

Dual channel isn't all it's cracked up to be.

There's rumors that that the A64's as they are now, will be phased out, for yet another socket type (but no one knows who's going to make the boards to support them- rumors are they're in cahoots with NVidia.)

The market for the A64s are really gamers, who are generally insane (include myself in that group.)

AMD is deliberately keeping availability of chips low to justify the prices on the high end chips (and even the Athlon chips) before they move to the next level of chips (whatever that may be.) These rumors may be spread by AMD itself, while testing the waters of sales of the 64's. There's still plenty of interest in the Athlon chips, that's why prices have remained pretty steady.

Intel either has something up it's sleeve re:64 bit procs, or simply is counting on MS to spend the next few yrs. to come out with a resonably working Longhorn. The beta version is available, so why don't we hear anything from Intel, other than their "quad-pumping" P4s? (btw, I hear you can get a beta version of Longhorn in Malaysia for $2 US!)

Microsoft is deliberately witholding the release of Longhorn, because the world is pissed off at them with their endless "patches", and "Service Packs". *I* certainly wont pay for Longhorn, you can bet on that. I'll get my license from work, like a good American- I have a friend in the IT dept. and they have licenses up the wazoo!

MS is concerned that people wont spend their hard earned money for yet *another* version of Windows, and more than that, people couldn't care less about a 64 bit OS, and have great reluctance in upgrading all their software (backward compatibility or not, MS will manage to screw things up so much that people will stick with XP or even 98.)

I was thinking of "future-proofing" my next upgrade, but, in truth, all I want is raw SPEED for my video projects, and games. I was thinking about about this while tweaking my daughter's system with a cheapie Biostar micro-atx board, and an Intel 2.4 Celeron-D processor w/a 400 Mhz fsb. I've tweaked it so much I can play Far Cry and Grand Theft Auto with barely a hiccup, using my old ti4200 vid card. It boots in about 30 secs. I have to say I'm impressed with such a cheapie setup. I raised the benchmark from pcpitstop from under 1000 to over 1100.

So I'm thinking of the cost/benefit ratio. Do I spend upwards of $300 for an A64, or use that money for a high-end Barton, decent motherboard, and some extra ram? How many software vendors will be writing 64 bit apps? I suspect the gaming companies will, but do they want to alienate those customers with P4 rigs? Hmmm...decisions, decisions. OK, Ray- Are YOU going to upgrade to an A64? Wink

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Re: Getting (a VERY) small handle on this
Sep 18, 2004 11:50PM PDT

i will just say 1 gig cache is what id get i wish i had $

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Maybe another way is to saythat for the AMD 64's
Sep 18, 2004 2:12AM PDT

the mobo has nothing to do with the FSB except to provide a fast enough memory bus to provide data fast enough to feed the MCH. As the CPU design progresses the output of the MCH [the FSB] speeds will be able to utilize faster memory bus speeds. That's when DDR2 will phase in.

DDR is over 500 MHz now but running out of growth capability.

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I finally figure that out from all my reading last nite.
Sep 19, 2004 12:01PM PDT

And I really did spend hrs. reading about all of this stuff. My previous post was a bit tongue in cheek, but it *was* based much on everything I read. The rumors from some message boards may be taken with a grain of salt, or maybe not?

Sales on retail computers have really bottomed out, and you can get a very decent system for <$500. Just after I got all the parts to fix up my daughter's system, I got an email from tigerdirect for a refurbed e-machine, that had something like a 3200+ Barton, 512 ram, 160 gig HD, and a DVD-RW; cost: $300! I'm getting so tired of upgrading and digging into the guts of my systems, I think I would have bought the system; just to gut the system for parts and the chip would have been worth it to me.

As for DDR2, pci Express.....I don't even want to think about it, lol. All I've been thinking about lately is "Barton, A64?" Now, it's "Barton, A64, P4, refurbed?" Oy!

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A64..A64..A64...
Sep 19, 2004 6:56PM PDT

The latest and the greatest..A64 is the only way to go. So I looked at the amd64 and really got confused; it comes in 4 variety and the prices jumps all over the place. Maybe I'll just stick with my dual p3, LOL.

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NT: HAH! You've just proven my point! Socket A all the way!
Sep 19, 2004 9:53PM PDT

.

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Re: NT: HAH! You've just proven my point! Socket A all the w
Sep 20, 2004 5:13AM PDT

thats why you deal with a rep shop or do what ive done i called amd they helped allot

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Dual Channel on mobo like Marks AMD and Toni's Intel
Sep 17, 2004 5:04AM PDT

The dual channel must have two same capacity memory sticks in seprate sockets [or more but in pairs].]they even color code the sockets LOL]

Each of those sticks has its own bus directly to the MCH that is in the Northbridge chip of the chipset. [Intel now simply calls the Northbridge the MCH and the Southbridge the IOCH IO Controller Hub Thus instead of 32 bits of DDR data per clock [64 data bits because DDR's 2 reads per clock] you have another 32 data lines 64 bits also clocked at the same time. Thus there is 128 bits of data available each clock cycle compared to the normal 64 bits of data.

In the case of the 32 bit AMD's there is only one set of 32 data lines to the CPU so the MCH has to stage the data to the CPU.

The Intel P4's have two 32 bit data lines from the MCH to the CPU thus it's FSB can be 800 MHz while the AMD is only 400 MHz.

The fact that AMD's perform on a par with Inel's [maybe better], is the internal achitecture of the CPU not the FSB speed.

There are a number of articles that tend to show that Dual Channel may not really buy a heck of a lot of speed advantage [down in the single digit %]

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It would make no business sense to
Sep 17, 2004 5:07AM PDT

have the expense of a Dual Channel Northbridge and NOT have Dual Channel sockets and artwork. Thus a moot point.

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The A 64's
Sep 17, 2004 5:22AM PDT

Prior to the 939 socket CPU's The CPU that you use determines Dual versus single channel.

The standard CPU's were single channel MCH on the CPU, and 500 cache and did not require registered memory.

The FX51 series CPU for that mobo have the Dual Channel MCH on the CPU and 1 meg onboard cache AND the FX51 version required registered memory. [in the 939 socket that is no longer true].

Basically for the socket 939 CPU's the only difference is that the FX51 version for that socket has 1 meg of onboard cache, the regular still only 500K onboard cache.

Remember the CPU can be access memory on the chip [onboard cache] far faster than the CPU can fetch it from the normal memory. In general more onboard cache [everything else equal] faster performance. I'm sure that there is a limit to that statement.

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SATA. Possibly your techs
Sep 17, 2004 5:39AM PDT

are missing the growth issue.

IDE has run out of steam at ATA 133. SATA has just started at 133 [approx]. Yes it has been reported for some time that current SATA drives are NOT faster than the IDE's, HOWEVER it has just started ino its growth phase and will soon be far faster. Intel doesn't even bother supporting ATA 133 on there mobo's they stop at ATA100 because SATA is the way to go for growth.

Same re the 939 socket AMD will continue to make faster CPU's for that socket. They claim that they will continue to "support" the socket 754. [they can't afford to continue developing two lines of CPU, especially if you read Robert Proffitts inputs re the dual 64 bit CPU's coming]. Both Intel and AMD have seen that dual CPU's in one package will be far superior [when the software to match gets fully implemented]

Also getting rid of the d----d ribon cable cables and trying to put two drives on one ribbon bable is a PITA.

Don't pooh pooh RAID EXCEPT be sure to get a mobo where the RAID controller can also be used for ATA and ATAPI drives. Last time I looked the MSI controller would handle RAID and ATA but NOT ATAPI. The Gigabyte controller handles RAID, ATA, and ATAPI.

There are so many details to consider when selecting a mobo. But the tomshardware and anandtech articles give all the details. More RTFA LOL

You seem to be looking to make a future buy but listen to info from your techs on current hardware.

BTW DDR2 and PCI Express are in the same boat, offer little now [except higher cost LOL], but next year may be the way to go.

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Minor point
Sep 17, 2004 6:14AM PDT

I don't believe that the AMD FSB's are "Locked" the Multipliers are Locked, so that the only way to over clock is to increase the FSB by increasing the speed of the memory bus. A number of mobo's support overclocking by giving the ability to increment the memory bus in 1 MHz steps and control the various CPU voltages incrementally.

I did read that Intel was going to somehow limit the CPU speed. Guess that locking the FSB would be one way, but with the FSB control in the MCH I'm not sure how that would be done.

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Dodged a bullet, lol
Sep 16, 2004 11:07AM PDT

Was tracking the shipment, UPS reported as delivered, but since I work in a gov't building, everything needs to be scanned so I expected a delay until t'mmw. Just checked UPS tracking now, and it was reported as damaged and returned to sender.

I called the seller, and he had no identical units, and offered a 2600+ and a "similiar" motherboard, so I passed. I asked for a refund if possible. He was trying to negotiate a wait for about a week, but I said I really didn't want to wait, so he agreed to refund me, minus the s/h & insurance. Figger that's fair, since he had to ship it and all that. So I have to eat the ~$20. Worth it to me cuz I really didn't want it anyway and I can stop obsessing over this, lol. Have to say the guy was really nice about it.

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Re: Dodged a bullet, lol
Sep 16, 2004 2:57PM PDT

my 2800s great lol

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the bullet boomaranged!
Sep 20, 2004 10:16AM PDT

I just confirmed with my credit card company that I was in fact refunded; it was. Then I get a call from security there's a box waiting for me. I got the chip and the motherboard! The cardboard box was slightly dented, but everything inside seemded well protected by what looked like plastic air pillows. The amd chip looks like it is in fact retail, encased in plastic. The board wasn't externally wrapped, but the motherboard itself was covered in plastic with a seal to close it. I've emailed the vendor, but gotten no reply yet. The board supports a 400 Mhz bus, but the 2800+ only goes up to 333. Aaack! What to do, what to do. Guess I'll try calling the vendor.

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Re: the bullet boomaranged!
Sep 20, 2004 11:57PM PDT

my msi board same 400 fsb 2800xp runs like the wind in a class 5 huricane i play any game with it

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MARK where the heck did you getr
Sep 21, 2004 5:52AM PDT

400 MHz FSB 2800+?????????? The AMD technical documents show the 3000+ as the first of the 400 MHz units. [downloaded the latest PDF today.

There are two versions of the 2800+ the Model 8 and the Model 10, but both show 333MHz FSB,

Or are you overclocking ???? I know that the mobo supports 400 MHz FSB, thus you could enable it.

What speed does the BIOS report for the CPU????

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Not Mark, but I'm reasonably sure Mark is running @333
Sep 21, 2004 8:19AM PDT

Think I got an email to that effect.

Still haven't heard from the vendor; gonna try and call him.

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I re read his posts and he DOES say 333.
Sep 21, 2004 9:16AM PDT

For some reason he keeps mentioning the mobo's support for 400 at the same time. I got confused. Sorry.

Thjanx for the clarification.

You've spent your way out of a 64. LOL

Hope you buy something really nice for your wife's birthday or anniversary whatever is next, or maybe just because she is a great wife.

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Re: I re read his posts and he DOES say 333.
Sep 21, 2004 10:53AM PDT

Yeah, my daughter's upgrade has taken a nice bite out my upgrade budget. But I got a nice little bonus in my paycheck today...but no way to hide it from my wife cuz it's direct deposit, lol.

My wife and I have an anniversary coming up next month. I should tell her the computer upgrade is her gift! Alternatively, I should tell her I want a computer upgrade; either way it's "my" money, in that I'm the breadwinner. Both kids are in school, she should be making some money!

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Re: I re read his posts and he DOES say 333.
Sep 21, 2004 10:35PM PDT

the board will support 400 but i wont bother why im so fast now im very pleased
sorry if i confoosed you

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Re: MARK where the heck did you getr
Sep 21, 2004 10:33PM PDT

i never overclock
its running at 2.083 in bios i beleave ill look next reboot.

xp sees it as 2.08 Ghz

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Re: Doh! Did I make a mistake on this Ebay auction?
Sep 17, 2004 5:07AM PDT

I'll take it off your hands, if it has been tested.
usenix1@yahoo.com

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NT: Sorry, damaged on delivery. Returned.
Sep 18, 2004 4:48AM PDT

.

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Just to p you off. LOL
Sep 21, 2004 9:32AM PDT

that package shows for $109 pls S & H at outpost.com in google.

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Re: Just to p you off. LOL- The *exact same package*? Aaargh
Sep 21, 2004 9:46AM PDT

Well, contacted vendor, he's arranging to send me a pre-paid ups box. If I'm gonna have a board that supports 400 Mhz, then I want a chip to match. The 3000+ chip on newegg is about $140 w/512 cache. Bet that really rocks. BUT I DON'T HAVE A MOTHERBOARD WITH A 400 FSB, 'CEPT MY DAUGHTER'S! Her system is faster than mine. Arrrrgh!

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Check with newegg. I got the soyo for $54
Sep 21, 2004 10:18AM PDT

Not particularly recommending it because I have no reason to. No reason to not recommend it either.

It really depends on what extra features that you want.

Don't need RAID . Nov issue of Max PC has tests to show that RAID adds nothing to gaming and a single drive is frequently faster for gamimg.

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heh, heh,....You'll like this Ray....
Sep 21, 2004 10:48AM PDT

My next upgrade will be an A64. I figure, if the high end Athlon XPs are about the same as low end A64s, I may as well go for the A64. My brain is so discombobulated from the last coupla weeks, I have to start with a clear head. From everything I've read, as far as the motherboard, MSI's Neo-something is the best board (Asus seems to have issues). Has RAID and SATA; understand RAID to limited degree, but that's a future project for research. I just want RAW SPEED! Did I mention my daughter's system is almost as fast as mine with a 2.4 Celeron-D? Well, I found out that this chip isn'y recommended for for her Biostar motherboard, so my techies are ordering a 2.8 Celeron-D for me (will have to pay the difference in price.) THEN I think her system will definitely be faster, if the pcpitstops benchmarks are to be believed.

Don't know when I'll be doing the upgrade; my techies tell me to wait for prices to drop, and I'm not sure that's going to happen anytime soon. They're having trouble even getting the chips. So I'll monitor newegg, and some other sites. May even go barebones, I think at the Monarch site I saw some decent barebones A64 systems. One thing I really, really hate about building computers is pinning the motherboard. I'm really paranoid about putting a PS connection to something like an audio header- something I did years back on my first build. Will keep you posted.

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I'll be watching. BUT
Sep 21, 2004 11:29AM PDT

Whatever you do for any mobo. Go to the mfr's site's forums. The earlier MSI NEO mobo for the P4 875 chipset got raves in anandtech forums. The mobo became a disaster when a string of BIOS updates to correct performance problems actually damaged the mobo's. Took many month's to get a safe BIOS for it and anand's rating dropped to the real world. Think that it was the 7th BIOS change that actually got things working.

Not criticizing MSI [had ordered it and sent it back to newegg and asked for refund to buy the gigabyte. When I referred them to the problems they exchanged for me]. The giga was considerably higher price though.

Again not picking on MSI, any of these new high performance mobo's have many problems with various brands of memory. The users forum really let one see how many problems the mobo is having. I looked at the forum for the MSI that you mention. See a number of problems BUT I didn't check any others. For all I know they are having more problems.

And again if you don't get a socket 939 A64 as opposed to the socket 754 or 940[ which is older than the 939, but I'm not sure that they ever released the 940] I would think that you are missing the point of why that socket type is really the only solution for using the lower cost CPU of that socket type.

I think that you are correct about prices not dropping. One reason is that Intel still doesn't offer anything really competitive so no reason for AMD to drop prices.