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General discussion

Do you think it's fair just to pick on Apple?

Feb 6, 2012 9:22AM PST

To give you some context to this poll, read this blog here:
Would you boycott Apple?

Do you think it is fair for consumers just to pick on Apple for this?

- Yes. (Please explain.)
- No. (Please explain.)
- Don't care. (Why not?)

Discussion is locked

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The connotation of what you say is on point, BUT...
Feb 7, 2012 8:07AM PST

Just because "virtually every American company is doing" it, does that make it morally right??? I, for one, think NOT!

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How does this work?
Feb 7, 2012 3:28AM PST

So, I'm not sure how this would work. What would be the benchmarks?
1). Give the workers more money.
2). Rebuild the entire plant so that the working conditions are much improved.
3). Give them less hours to work (now they'll make less money).
then what comes next: Free lunches for all, Paid time off, Full Benefits and a pension.
When they get all that they'll need a labor union to get them even more benefits.
After that's all accomplished, Apple will realize they're not making much of a profit anymore.
So, let's move the whole operation to Viet Nam and start back at number one again as soon as enough people complain.
This is why Apple went overseas to begin with - right?

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Domestic Factories are much better than overseas
Feb 7, 2012 3:32AM PST

Yep, and there won't be many domestic factories left soon.

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If I boycotted every company that did business in China.....
Feb 7, 2012 3:34AM PST

.... I probably wouldn't be able to do anything except lay on the ground naked and look into the sky (without my glasses or contacts, mind you)

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Actually,
Feb 7, 2012 8:27AM PST

What you or anyone needs to do is breath (Clean air), nourish the body (with wholesome, nonpoinsoned food), and secure some sort of shelter from the environment (including clothing) in order to live. All the rest is luxury. Now, how do you suppose people did that before the middle of the 18th century when there was no such thing as Lattes, Dockers, Apple Macs, etc. and the only thing there was to drive was a team of horse drawing a wagon??? Confused So, you DO have a choice. You've already made it by staying "on the grid", so to speak.

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yes boycot
Feb 7, 2012 3:37AM PST

I am NO longer a union member and live in a right to work state. I also have no dog in this hunt as I dont own any apple products in general nor a smart phone in particular. However when you say everything is made in china so go ahead and buy apple you loose all credibility if your job goes china way- T0 the person wyliefool Since you can't actually buy electronics that aren't made in China (without going to some effort to find them) Maybe it takes too much effort to find your company

When aII the jobs go to china who wiII be Ieft to buy.

AppIe aIways was a cIosed company propritary greedy bunch

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Apple Needs to Be Held Accountable But They Are Trying More
Feb 7, 2012 3:42AM PST

I will admit up front that I am a huge Apple fan all of my tech is from Apple. With that disclaimer out of the way I was upset with the New York Times article and voiced my discontent to Apple on their website and will continue to do so. The contracts that Apple enters into for overseas production are apparently so tight that the only way for producers to make a profit is to cut corners on safety and overwork labor. This is a problem with most products made in China and other low labor cost countries. At least Apple is monitoring the situation, is honest about results and progress and is trying to improve. Most other companies are not even that advanced.

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Yes, it is fair to pick on Apple
Feb 7, 2012 3:42AM PST

Apple is leader in its field, and has achieved iconic status, as such it should be ensuring that it employs companies to manufacture their products that have fair, safe, and just employment policies including signing up to providing a minimum wage to workers. It is only by the action of major companies that foreign companies, such as Foxxconn, will improve working conditions and the lives of their employees. US companies need to think more about social justice and less about profiting from people as if they are robots, not human beings. America and its people need to lead by example - boycott Apple! And boycott Intel too until the US stops vetoing the right for a Palestinian State in favour of Israeli based Intel and supporting the most gross atrocities against the Palestinian people. America is a big country it is time to show it also has a big heart - start thinking about people not profits.

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Unavoidable effect of a not-so-well-thought globalization
Feb 7, 2012 3:44AM PST

Of course not Apple only, it would be unfair if the other companies that do the same wouldn't also be picked on. But something has to be done, and on a global level -- it wouldn't work to tax those products in the US for their practices, for example, as we are already paying a high price for them: rampant unemployment and the dying manufacturing industry caused by the outsourcing of those and IT services. And don't tell me that we don't have qualified workers, greedy US companies have been outsourcing for a while to workers abroad that accept under the US minimum wage salaries. Globalization will only work if the field is level.

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Boycotting Apple
Feb 7, 2012 3:51AM PST
No. I think that everyone who does business in these countries where the conditions are pathetic to our standards, should pressure those facilities to improve their working conditions or the US or Japanese or whomever it may be, will move to a country where the standards are higher, even at the chance that the product may cost more. Look at how many people seem to afford those products now. i think that these same people could afford to pay more to help improve those who are working in subpar standards.
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Going further
Feb 7, 2012 4:20AM PST

Yes, I wish that would work. Just convince businesses that buy from those that explore cheap/slave work and compete on a highly greedy and competitive market to take the first step... Highly desirable, but also highly utopic. It would have a chance though if it were an action coming from an association of countries or organ in charge of regulating commerce. That was my thought about leveling the field.

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Sadly, the only way...
Feb 7, 2012 8:36AM PST

that everyone who does business in these countries where the conditions
are pathetic to our standards, would pressure those facilities to
improve their working conditions or the US or Japanese or whomever it
may be, will move to a country where the standards are higher is if WE pre$$ure them. This means voting with our wallets. This is the sad truth.

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sweatshops are good
Feb 7, 2012 3:53AM PST

They are produced by slave labor and we are lucky for it. Otherwise the products would cost 2-3x as much and no-one would buy them. The same thing was being done in the US the early 20th century. It stopped when unions and ethical labor movements took hold. So all the manufacturing went overseas where workers could be exploited. In 50 years or so when China is like we are today, Africa or S.America will be the cheap labor pool. It's how capitalism works. So just deal with it or go live in the streets like the Occupy crowd.

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Not anymore
Feb 7, 2012 4:37AM PST

It's time to stop thinking small. Capitalism as it is seen in the US today may have its days counted. We are in a time where we are affected by everything we do. We can't just expect that we have a good life while others are slaves. It's not socialism, it's fairness and reality. They are billions of people, we are millions. We already have a crumbling economy due in great part to them taking our businesses, they manufacture for almost nothing. Middle class in China will rise, while we struggle to keep our old standards. By the way, South America is far away from having cheap labor -- at least in Brazil, strict labor laws must make companies think twice before settling there. Their last president was previously a Union head.

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not anymore
Feb 7, 2012 9:50PM PST

Thanks for the tip on Brazil. The important point however, is that manufacturing will always go where it is cheap. In a global economy where shipping is cheaper then making things here (think about it, it's cheaper to make things in CHINA, ship them around the planet to us then it is to make them here) manufacturing will always go elsewhere. It's about more then factory pay. It's also workplace safety laws, lawsuits and all the attendant costs of business.
Its the same reason the US lets in illegal aliens to work here. There used to be Americans willing to do bad jobs for worse pay. Not anymore, but the jobs are still there so we use illegals. If we gave up illegals and imposed high tariffs, our standard of living would crumble. Ask yourself honestly if you are preapred to make that sacrifice. If you are, you are a noble soul. If you really care, go out and found a political movement and get it done. But if you are not willing to then stop wringing your hands. Capitalism is alive and well, it's just China that is going to be in the driver's seat for awhile and not us. England had it's turn, then USA, now China.

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not anymore
Feb 8, 2012 1:16AM PST

I don't think of it as a lost cause and I don't see the solution passing through sacrifice (not more than we are already making) -- manufacturing has been cheaper outside the US for a long time, but there was always something the US produced better or for some reason or incentive the country was managing to keep factories going. I think there are regulations missing on the globalization plan: it's not free market if someone is cheating -- using slave work, for example, or pirating products --, so there should be a consensus among countries and organs regulating free trade to banish those companies engaging in those practices from doing business.
About illegals, I think it's far more complicated than that. I think the jobs illegals perform have been stigmatized to a point that Americans that would gladly do them in the past (and would be gladly doing them today) avoid them. They may be pretty good jobs, I myself have done them while unemployed or recently moved to a place and I was looking for a job in my area of expertise. By the way, the country is missing a lot by not having a structure to legalize the right people and to deport/prevent the entry of the wrong ones, it's thousands of tax dollars lost and thousands of good people, good brains, left out of the workforce or living a marginal life.
About China, the world should be worried not about their domination, but about how a billion people entering middle class will affect natural resources and how much pollution this will cause. Then India. And also how to get those entering power to make wise decisions and promoting education among the new middle and high class consumers.

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history
Feb 8, 2012 5:36AM PST

The answers to what will happen as China and Indian create their own middle classes are found in history. If you look at Europe, Japan the United States you will see a very similar pattern. The concept of `fairness' and `charity' towards workers and the less advantaged comes with affluence. Poor, hard working farmers are not charitable because they have to work so hard for what they have. It is only when a society has been well off for awhile (a few generations) that a surplus of wealth and social `guilt' start to kick in and they want to help the disadvantaged. China and India have a few generations to go before they will be comfortable enough for charity, just as all the previous industrial powers were brutal towards their factory workers and poor for quite some time. Maybe your grandkids will see a kinder and more gentle China. Meanwhile, we all get to enjoy the cheap good that we get from their unfairness but are unwilling to abuse workers to make here ourselves. A hundred years from now, some socially conscious Chinese will probably be wringing their hands about working conditions in Africa...

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Boycott everything!
Feb 7, 2012 3:56AM PST

If we boycotted Apple we'd have to boycott nike, sony, toshiba, lg, samsung and a ton of other companies who produce goods in China. As long as the people of CHina are willing to work in such conditions the world will continue to buy the products of their labor. I hate to say it but the working conditions mentioned are similar to their living conditions and no one is concerned about that.

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Some people have short memories.
Feb 7, 2012 3:58AM PST

Back in the late 1990's there was a national campaign to promote American made products.
The most prolific promotional material was bumper stickers that proclaimed: "Made with pride in the USA" and down in the bottom right hand corner in very small print it said, "Printed in Korea".
Some things you need to get right first time, it's a bit late to complain now.

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I am not an advocate for foreign workers.
Feb 7, 2012 4:03AM PST

<span id="INSERTION_MARKER"> <span id="INSERTION_MARKER"> <span id="INSERTION_MARKER"> If foreign workers want better working conditions, shorter hours, or more pay they will have to advocate for themselves. Every time U.S. do-gooder consumers meddle in foreign countries they disrupt the status quo and hurt the people they are trying to help. If people feel compelled to "do something", try helping the local homeless.

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Not consumer do-gooder, but Governments and organs
Feb 7, 2012 4:46AM PST

I would say that if a consensus is reached by governments and organs to regulate work in foreign countries using cheap/slave labor, manufacturing will at least in part come back to the US, therefore the homeless will be no more -- at least on what depends on the economy (no drug addiction, diseases, social problems etc. considered.)

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Boycotting Apple
Feb 7, 2012 4:27AM PST

It's ABSOLUTELY fair to boycott Apple. They are the company that we know is guilty of this practice. There is NO DOUBT that Apple knows of the problems at Foxconn and they choose to ignore them. I will boycott any manufacturer that I know does business this way, including Dell, Sony and others. In fact, every day I look harder and harder to see where the goods I buy are manufactured. We need jobs in the U.S., so I'm more and more eager to buy locally grown food, locally provided services and products that were manufactured or assembled here. The ONLY way anything will change is for people to pay attention. Businesses follow the money, and nothing else. They won't treat employees better if consumers don't demand it.

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Not for this, but...
Feb 7, 2012 4:28AM PST

...I boycotted Apple for a while back in 2008, when they donated to the No on 8 campaign. Unfortunately, just like with the Chinese-labor issue, the competition also backs homorrhage, so it's lose/lose anyway.

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Apple can't be blamed.
Feb 7, 2012 4:34AM PST

While the conditions arent great in the factory Apple contracts to manufacture its products, Apple doesn't own that factory, nor are they a part of, nor expected to know, the working practices and conditions. Also, while it may be true that Apple could find a new company to manufacture its products, this may take a great deal of time and/or revenue, since they are likely bound by a contract. Apple likely took bids on who would manufacture their products, and this company just happened to be the lowest bidder; US companies do this ALL THE TIME, especially cities/counties that use private owners to bus children to/from school. Let me put it this way...If you owned a company that manufactured something, and you decided to contract out the manufacturing process, are you going to take the lowest bid, or will you pay a premium for better working conditions. The more important question is this: how would you even know the real working conditions of a potential factory, since any company wanting to take the business is going to make it look good, both on paper and in person; that is until you're not looking. Yes, Apple now has a dilemma, because people want better conditions for these people, but just remember this...those people choose to work in the environment they work in; Apple just needs to decide if they want to take work away from people who need it. You see, you people say you care about those who work under these conditions, but you expect Apple to snatch their business away from them, possibly putting people out of work. Just don't forget, Apple's products already cost a pretty penny, and if a change in manufcturer costs them, you can believe it will cost the consumer. The choice is yours now: do you continue to demand apple (potentially) cause these people to become unemployed, just to appease the bleeding hearts, or do you leave Apple to mind their business, let these people keep keep their wages, and worry about cleaning up the dirt swept under your own rugs?

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Some points....
Feb 7, 2012 8:50AM PST

1. Apple is a consumer just like those who purchase Apple products. Apple has the ability to vote with its wallet just like any consumer has.

2. Apple has ALREADY taken jobs from those who need them by not manufacturing it's wares here in the United States where it calls it's home.

3. Products that cost more than people can afford (notice I said afford, not want) to pay don't get bought.

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No, not fair to pick on Apple alone
Feb 7, 2012 4:44AM PST

Whichever company manufactures whatever product in "sweat shop" slave-like conditions should be targeted, regardless of who they are or what they make. Our grandfathers and great grandfathers fought and sometimes died to gain us the right to work in a safe environment and now American companies run overseas to get away with the same crap? Unacceptable! I am sure this is just the first of many such stories to come and action is needed by American consumers...whether that's petitions or boycotts or whatever...they need to stop.

I do hope that Apple will take the lead in changing their abhorrent practices.

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Apple Bite by Politics
Feb 7, 2012 4:46AM PST

Being of sound mind and body, I remember when Microsoft was made the poster child of bad politics, because they did not $contribute to the political establishment. Thus, Microsoft was intimidated by the Clinton DOJ, until they paid their tribute to the Clinton defense fund...then, DOJ made it all go away. EU saw what DOJ accomplished with legal intimidation and proceeded to extract their billions in tribute, also. Today, with Apple having all of the CASH, and Steve Jobs making negative statements about the current administration, the administration has decided to apply pressure, and threaten DOJ actions, for campaign tribute, and reelection. This has nothing to do with Chinese factory conditions, that is the Chinese govt's concern, which Apple has little control. Want proof, who is making all of the noise, and with whom are they aligned politically?

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Good point!
Feb 7, 2012 8:54AM PST

Sorry to see the Thumbs down. It's too bad that people are such narrow minded lemmings that they just can't see the bigger picture.

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Is it fair to pick on Apple?
Feb 7, 2012 4:52AM PST

Boycott Apple? Sure, why not (since I never buy Apple anything anyway). So, for me, fun; but hardly fair, since most, if not all, PC components are manufactured abroad, if not by Foxconn by similar sources. Two questions leap to mind--are there in fact any suppliers of computer components which are NOT equally guilty? If so, how many people, particularly in the current economy, could afford to support only those politically correct companies? My guess is there would be few if any such suppliers, & their prices would be higher to begin with, and would increase further with the lack of competition. I, for one, would be buying fewer, if any components.

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Boycott Apple???
Feb 7, 2012 4:53AM PST

If you boycott Apple, then you must boycott all the other phones, computers and laptops as well. Why just Apple? Have you looked to see where your underwear, pants, shirts or socks are made? Good chance they are from China as well. We have given our country away but it is unfair to just single out Apple.