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General discussion

Discouraging posts

Sep 26, 2004 4:36AM PDT

Sometimes, the replies to questions leave the impression that the questioner should do research outside the forum rather than come to the forum for answers. This has discouraged me from posting at times so that I feel the need to take some issues to other support forums, whereas I would like to be free to post my problems here. Most people unsophisticated in computer technology have a natural reluctance to "show their ignorance", even though the forum is for the purpose of eliminating that ignorance. If there is some kind of precondition to posting, that should be plainly stated in the forum rules. If there is not, individual experts should be reluctant to leave the impression that there is. From my perspective, posting questions on a support forum such as this is the optimum way to research a problem. I expect that all if not the big majority of posters are quite aware of the alternative to research other sources than this forum, and also aware of the great amount of time and perplexity that can involve. Perhaps I am wrong in thinking that the very purpose for the existence of this forum is to save people from the time and effort of reinventing the wheel.

Discussion is locked

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Sometimes the questions are repeats. Such...
Sep 26, 2004 5:12AM PDT

The ones about defragmenting in Windows 98 or ME.

Here's my question. Should be have hundreds of discusssions about this? Or should the forum member use the SEARCH?

With all due respect, I think a little search on the member's end will find the answer faster. There can also be a misunderstanding in the way I give my replies. I often try to show how the member can find their own answers and don't give the answer. The premise here is that "If you give a man a fish..." story.

Now that you know this, watch the almost apropo public service video at http://www.trials-shack.co.uk/posting.html

Bob

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Re: Sometimes the questions are repeats. Such...
Sep 26, 2004 6:35AM PDT

Very cute "public service" video, Bob. Thanks.
I watched it twice, to pick up all the quick humor that flashes by.

I understand what you are saying, but you have to remember that the sort of people who stumble upon these help forums come from all walks of life. They could be seasoned veterans of the internet, or they could be people who are still wondering where the "anykey" is (as in "press any key"), or anything in between.

I do lean toward "teaching a man to fish, rather than just feeding him a fish" myself, but again, that most times only works well when the man is in the frame of mind to want to learn. That is much easier to detect their desire, of either, when you are in the same room, but much harder to detect through the internet.

Sometimes telling a person a way that they can find out information themselves is not well received when that same person is becoming frustrated using those same tools that you are espousing.

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Then what's the choice?
Sep 26, 2004 7:01AM PDT

These forums are very tame compared to what happens if someone posts such questions on an internet news group.

There are very few that don't want to learn. Those usually end up paying dearly for that position.

And it's a good thing we don't have stickies... (see video)

Bob

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Some truth, some fiction
Sep 26, 2004 7:01AM PDT

Bob, there would certainly be less need for the forum if people went elsewhere to do their research. I just don't know how much priority the forum gives to cutting down on its workload. If you neither give the man a fish or teach him to fish, but instead tell him to go to the library and find out how to fish, soemthing you yourself are good at teaching, you have not had to spend much time with the man, nor have you helped him very much. Spending an hour or several trying to find where the answer to a question is located is a very frustrating but not a very educational endeavor. That's one reason support forums are so popular. A person can spend more time learning and less looking.

Of course, you spend a great deal of time helping people on this forum. I am not sure how you make the judgment to help some and tell others to go elsewhere, but perhaps it would be better not to discourage people from asking questions because you think they shouldn't have asked them. After all, you haven't walked in those moccasins and could be misjudging. I myself have impaired memory and some impaired congitive function because of a brain injury which causes me to get easily confused in dealing with complex matters (judging complexity from my standpoint rather than yours). But you wouldn't know that from reading my posts, so the only way to accomodate such conditions is to not judge.

I do a lot of tutoring. The biggest problem I have is that the school system purports to encourage parent-types to help their kids with their homework, but then makes is impossible for most parents to do so by failing to give the parents the information they need to help the kid with his homework. Thus, when one of "my kids" asked me to help him with questions on electromagnetism, but had no paperwork at all with information on electromagnetism, I could have helped him by going to the library or internet and and spent considerable time trying to find out where the information is. Or the teacher, who already had the information, could have shared it with me. The hours I might have spent learning about electromagnetism could have been much better spent.

If you don't see any connection, so be it.

grandpaw

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Re: Some truth, some fiction
Sep 26, 2004 9:50AM PDT

A few items.

1. We have a search in these forums...

The forums now contain ready answers to prior issues.

2. The issue I see you struggling with is not something you might research your way out. It's a problem of epidemic proportions with what I'm guessing some 80 plus percent of PC owners are now plagued with.

I read a post by you and see the issues of malware and exploitation of your machine by malware writers. Many PC owners don't get such an assessment and ways to keep the pests out. If you can't use the advice, then find something that works for you and report back.

Hoping you find a speedy recovery.

Bob

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Re: Some truth, some fiction
Sep 26, 2004 1:46PM PDT

"The forums now contain "ready" answers to prior issues", just like the library does. In either case, plan on spending from a few to several hours, not learning anything, but searching for something from which you might learn something. And, unlike libraries, forums are inherently not designed as research sources.

Much too late for a speedy recovery. I'll settle for an eventual one.

I began with McAfee updated and Window updated, and used Adaware and Spybot. That didn't protect me, though it is most of the package you suggested. If avoiding problems was as easy as you suggest, "it's that simple" I think were your words, it wouldn't be one "of epidemic proportions".

The forum is not just to help people avoid problems, but it is also to help solve them. And the forum is not just for people in computer-related businesses, but also for the guy or gal who has only a limited amount of time to use computers, maybe an hour or so a few times a week. Or perhaps I am wrong about that.

grandpaw

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And when I share a solution, do you use it?
Sep 27, 2004 6:43AM PDT

It's a simple problem to solve. I've solved it at home, the office and in the lab.

Here it is for completeness...

Find what software allows the malware to get on the machine and then see if there is a fix. If not, then you replace it. Don't expect Microsoft to fix this issue. It's up to you.

Use of an antivirus would be nice if we were dealing with a virus, but we are not. It's also not a trojan. It's something entirely outside what Mcafee shields you against. If that is unacceptable, then complain to Mcafee.

Sorry to read your woes, but a solution was supplied.

Bob

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Could you be missing the point Bob?
Sep 27, 2004 7:37AM PDT

Say I have a problem and ask a friend for help. They say, Geez, go to CNet forums, they are great.
So I go to the forums, and I'm advised to Google it. I mean these are HELP forums, right? Advice to do a search outside, and "learn how to fish", is practical advice, but some people just want a little hand holding sometimes, or maybe a quick answer from someone who has had the same problem.
And I consider any handholding, and solutions as a learning experience. Always copy any replies (that work), to a special folder, so I can reference it here, in case it happens again, rather than bugging you guys again. Well, I almost always do that Happy
Anyway Bob, in spite of you (LOL, just kidding), I learn something new almost every day on these forums.

Really think we need a FAQ section for questions like defragging, Should I leave my computer on or off, How much RAM do I need, etc.
But then again, would have to cover all OS's. Oh well........

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Re: Could you be missing the point Bob?
Sep 27, 2004 8:47AM PDT

Not at all. Each mod has their own style. If you feel that this should be a fish store, then we need a lot more people to supply the fish.

The FAQ is sorely needed as well as stickies. Either would kill off the old DOS WINDOWS DEFRAG posts. The power on/off post is one that consumes too many megabytes and needs to be gently controlled.

The originator of this post needs to sort out the issue of pests and how Internet Explorer is being exploited by very bad people. He's found the answer, but is having difficulty digesting it.

Bob

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Yep, guess I do..
Sep 27, 2004 9:40AM PDT

think this should be a fish store. Bob I know you post in almost ALL the forums, so trying to give any detailed advice in all, would surely drive you up the wall. You've smacked me around enough that I know better than to come here without doing a search on my own. LOL

Anyway, "the poster" does seem to have a lot of problems, and I have followed many of his posts. Appears that all problems started after installing WINXP? Think that you think he has some parasites, but I may have missed those posts.
I'm a grandpa myself, but had no real problems with upgrading, except that some things were a bit different. Ha ha, well I hope so.
My dad is 86 now, and just got a new computer with XP. Has had no problems that I know of, but he has another son living close to him who has a bit of nerd in him, so maybe I just didn't hear about it. LOL.

Also saw a post or 2 about how this OS should not require constant checking, AV scanning, and malware checks. I totally agree!!
But still a fact of life. Changing browsers is a fix, for now, but once the hackers/crackers think enough people have switched, well, what do you think will happen?

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Just noting an alternative that I use.
Sep 27, 2004 10:46AM PDT

It's a Linux box. And if I've really found a vile site, I boot up a KNOPPIX CD and open the site to see what code it tried to run.

As to Windows, the screams are being heard quite clearly. But this is a no-pay zone and if no fishing lessons were being handed out, it would quickly degrade to something that, in my opinion would be just as helpful as an internet news group.

As to Mozilla/Firefox issues, I found one so far. Not an exploit, but a denial of service. At least its a site that you close the browser and don't go back there.

The Knoppix solution is very far out for some, but it's a very good tool I carry always. Here's an article I inspired about it -> http://tips.oncomputers.info/archives2004/0401/2004-Jan-11.htm

Best of luck,

Bob

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Re: Just noting an alternative that I use.
Sep 28, 2004 8:25AM PDT
The Knoppix solution is very far out for some, but it's a very good tool I carry always. Here's an article I inspired about it

I read that article a while back. Sounds great, but after looking at the download size, and not speaking German, I just clicked out, and went and had a beer Happy

I really enjoy learning new tips and tricks about computers, and I know enough about WIN95, 98, and XP to make me dangerous. And although I hear LINUX is great, think it would probably do me in. I have the alternative browsers, Mozilla, Firefox, and Opera, but IE is like an old comfortable shoe or something. Been very lucky for many years, so if, or when I get nailed, I won't bug you guys about it, since I have been forewarned many times. LOL.
What's funny, at least to me, is that I put Firefox on my daughters computer, then deleted all the IE icon links, and they adapted to it right away. But they are young, and obviously smarter than me Sad
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Re: Could you be missing the point Bob?
Sep 28, 2004 7:20AM PDT

"Not at all. Each mod has their own style. If you feel that this should be a fish store, then we need a lot more people to supply the fish."
---
I totally agree with that. I remember when I needed lots of help, because I didn't know anything. I always tried to find the answer on other websites but even if I saw a solution to a similar problem, it wasn't my problem. Many errors and many users are unique. They ask questions in their own ways and expect an answer to -their- question, not someone elses. Someone mentioned that some people have limited time, like an hour a day or so. They don't want to spend that researching their problem. That's why forums are forums... we talk, help each other. A link to a specific post that helps them is OK, but I wouldn't tell anybody to search the forums. Some people have trouble with "well, what do I seach for." Other people get thousands of hits and go "well, which one is it." If they have to look at a thousand posts... then we're back were we started: wasting time and researching. Bob's method is not wrong, and my method is not wrong. They are just different and based on what we believe is the best way to help. i'd rather repeat myself over and over again in several different ways. Even if I think I know what I'm talking about, it always shows me different aspects I never thought of and I learn even more. That's all I have to say Happy

Regards,
Ryan Sechrest

[email this member]
---------------------------------------------------------------------->
"Any technology significantly advanced enough
is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clark
<---------------------------------------------------------------------

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Are we taking Bob et al too much for granted?...
Sep 30, 2004 6:49PM PDT

For example, I often read questions and automatically think "Bob will reply to that - I'll check in later" and, true enough, his reply appears in virtually real time. Once you get to know Bob through his replies (excuse me, Bob, for talking about you like this!), you do realise that you might need to employ some self-help to resolve a problem, though usually for those questions most frequently asked.

Also, for example, I occasionally read new defrag posts for the heck of it to see how well Bob has managed to retain his cool yet again! Devil And, yes he has retained his cool probably far better than most of us would have...

As a help Forum, Bob might be one of the main anchor-men (no disrespect to the many other Mods who consistently respond), but there is nothing to stop - and in fact every encouragement given to - any and all to reply with any useful information. I take the point elsewhere noted that some non-Mod advice is not always brilliant, but at the end of the day, it is up to the reader to decide whether he acts on advice given or not.

In summary, I see no reason why non-Mods cannot help by being fish suppliers when they can and help reduce the complacency of reliance on Mods such as Bob. Ask yourselves this: "I might not always agree with Bob sending me off on my own, but what would I do if no advice were given?" I'm not aware of anything in the CNET Forum words which say that a response is guaranteed, yet urgent Newbie questions invariably do receive a speedy response.

I think I've just used far too many words when "Thanks Bob" would probably have done it!

Regards
Mo

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Re: Are we taking Bob et al too much for granted?...
Oct 1, 2004 6:51AM PDT

Hi Mo,

It used to be that Moderators (red M) were paid. There were also Assistant Moderators (green M) who were not paid, but were bucking for paid jobs when money was available or additional Red M's needed. The dot.com crunch came along and all Moderators were made Red M and became volunteer unpaid Moderators. Currently as far as I know there is nothing being required of a Moderator to answer any question. I do note that there are some questions not answered and if for a long period of time they may ask again, but that may mean no one has an answer, or desires to answer be it Mod or member.

Myself, I would not care to be a Mod, even being paid, so my hat is off to those volunteer Mods.

JR
Besides how can one be a little critical of CNet or another Mod if on the company chain.

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Dear John, Thanks for confirming the position...
Oct 1, 2004 10:47AM PDT

I have noticed that some questions remain unanswered in the less active forums, and have also mentioned before that IMO a rationalisation to reduce the number of forums would not go amiss.

We seasoned readers do occasionally have to re-direct people who are in the wrong place, but it takes little more than a quick scan to see which forums are more active - i.e. thus they will be read by more people and questions will be more likely to receive a response from whichever fish supplier.

You will know of course that I am not part of the company chain (or in the Mods' case, ball and chain), so am free to criticise, provided realistically justified.

Again, I take my hat off to CNET's unpaid Mods who actually took one step forward (i.e. when all others took one step back of course).

Regards
Mo

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Re: Discouraging posts
Oct 27, 2004 9:40AM PDT

I think whether Cnet or other techy forums, the waiting list may be too long for a response.
:
:
Patience to the rescue I suppose...and eventually somebody will come along and help. IMO Wink

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Re: this won't be news to some ;-)
Oct 27, 2004 9:20PM PDT

i would be among the first to 'criticise' one particular mod (hi Bob P, nothing personal) on his "not too friendly bedside manner".... BUT i WOULD be the FIRST to say that due to his "seek and you shall find" approach, i can discuss (amongst other things) the ins and outs of imapi.sys with some confidence...

it's what makes the forii such an experience...

just my 2c worth

jonah

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