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Detroit Gets Chapter 9 Bankruptcy

by James Denison / December 3, 2013 3:26 AM PST

Obama once spoke about helping Detroit, don't know if he did yet or not, don't know if he will after Michigan govt takes over as city manager.


"The issue for Rhodes, who presided over a nine-day trial, was whether Detroit met specific conditions under federal law to stay in bankruptcy court and turn its finances around after years of mismanagement, chronic population loss and collapse of the middle class.

"This once proud and prosperous city can't pay its debts. It's insolvent. It's eligible for bankruptcy," Rhodes said in announcing his decision. "At the same time, it also has an opportunity for a fresh start."

Minutes after the ruling, a lawyer for the city's largest union, said she would pursue an appeal at the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Cincinnati. City officials got "absolutely everything" in Rhodes' decision, she told reporters.

"It's a huge loss for the city of Detroit," said Sharon Levine, an attorney for the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, which represents half the city's workers.

Opponents want to go directly to a federal appeals court in Cincinnati, bypassing the usual procedure of having a U.S. District Court judge hear the case.

Orr, a bankruptcy expert, was appointed in March under a Michigan law that allows a governor to send a manager to distressed cities, townships or school districts. A manager has extraordinary powers to reshape local finances without interference from elected officials. But by July, Orr and Gov. Rick Snyder decided bankruptcy was Detroit's best option. "

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(NT) NT Another fruit of Starve The Beast coming ripe.
by crowsfoot / December 3, 2013 9:07 AM PST
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Cutting spending is one approch.
by crowsfoot / December 3, 2013 9:30 AM PST

Keeping taxes at it's historical established rate, is another. SHOCKED, I TEEL YOU! That we didn't do both!
What puffed-up self important cynicism is afoot on this land! Detroit could keep it's promises. Or cut taxes. Not both. Wonder of wonders, the rich won again.

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who won?
by James Denison / December 3, 2013 9:43 AM PST

Corrupt politicians won. Crime won. Unions won, till they finally lost. Black people won, till they lost. Detroit defeated itself. People can get up and leave when they don't like what's going on and that's why pure democracy will always fail, because those who have will get up and leave behind those who continually want more and more. The very first black mayor eviscerated law enforcement there while the community which said it wanted more police protection then turned on police at the same time and complained about police all the time. That mayor removed the STRESS force and cut more jobs, set in place Affirmative Action practices to drive out white officers to put in poorly trained black police officers and the crime exploded almost immediately. As the crime exploded the slow move of whites from the city turned into a flood flowing from the city and finally the blacks had it all. Forty years later you can see what they've done to it. Now again, the state has to take over the city and are the residents glad for help? No, they are pissed off that whitie has to pull them out of the pit they dug and fell into themselves. Even a so called reverend Shabazz has said they should burn the city down before accepting that. Crazy, that's what they are. Not even in Africa are they crazy enough to burn down their own villages.

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Strave the beast won. Ayan Rand won. Greenspan's flaw won.
by crowsfoot / December 4, 2013 6:52 AM PST
In reply to: who won?

As tempting as it is to accept things as they are, still there is history. Detroit (if there is one) is a city that was a hero of WW2. Still, time goes on and hero doesn't pay the bills. As a matter of fact it became the tactic and the stratagy TO NOT pay the bills. Labor became uppity? Is that really your spur? How uppity can you get compaired to the money that money makes?

>>>People can get up and leave when they don't like what's going on and that's why pure democracy will always fail<<< That is exactly the story of How The A**hole Became The Boss.

And just as an aside to you James, if the situation was reversed and blacks had been in our shoes for all this time, and us in theirs. Whites would look just as inferior as you see them.

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What I'm hearing from you guys
by crowsfoot / December 4, 2013 9:52 AM PST

is that you refuse to bail not one drop of water from the boat until AFTER the hole has been patched. We can disscus the nature of the hole. And whether it accually IS a hole, at our leisure. Or not.

To some, it's at least as important to sink the boat as it is keep the little people down. How else will we know who is king, after all?

What the rich hold is only as valuable as the context they find themselves in. Let them all move to Brunei if that's what they want. I mean we are now, where we are. We've been asleap. Nice bedtime story, y'all. It worked. For now.

Just because we have a problem is no a reason to make it worse. But "Oh no!"

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and the debt the blacks owe?
by James Denison / December 4, 2013 1:51 PM PST

After all, they were the ones responsible for the dramatic increase in crime which drove property values down and higher income whites out of town. Whites lost investment value in their property as it's price continued to decline, all while the taxes on the property became more than double percentage of any other real estate taxes around the state. What's that they always say? "No Justice, No Peace"? They got Justice done their way and couldn't keep the Peace at all. Nevermind though, it's always whitey's fault. Everytime they are left to their own devices they seem to go into a downward spiral.

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Half the world's people live on less than 2 dollars a day.
by crowsfoot / December 4, 2013 3:19 PM PST

Make of that what you will. If it's more tax cuts for the rich, then that's you. We could have paid off the debt long ago. But no. You want an increase in crime? Continue to pamper at the expence of hunger. Because the poor do the work and the rich go to Cabo. Does that sound like a sustainable situation to you?

So. Are the blacks, in your mind, any different than us? Is it worth burning it all down. We are in deep deep debt right now. It's but a flip of the switch to restart the financing of our bills. Doesn't it make more sense to invest in education than the starving of the whole country?

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what makes more sense is to....
by James Denison / December 4, 2013 11:46 PM PST

end the pandering to them. As for hunger,...have you seen the size (weight) of so many of them? Hah, starving or even hunger is as distant to them as Pluto is to the Sun. Now exercise, work...that's a different matter.

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(NT) NT - Valid point. Except for a few things.
by crowsfoot / December 5, 2013 12:52 AM PST
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You have a problem with pure democracy.
by crowsfoot / December 4, 2013 10:10 AM PST
In reply to: who won?

I'm not totally against you on this. Let's talk. My problem is with pure capitalism. Pure capitalism's prime motivation is to keep the littlest of people as far down as possible. Cheap labor is good. Cheaper labor is better.

Haven't you noticed the trend where pentions are being gobbled up by the money that money makes people? And haven't you seen how there are artificial crisises created on a now regular time table? This is the fruit of Starve The Beast. This is pure capitalism at work.

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There are things going on called capitalism I don't like
by James Denison / December 4, 2013 2:00 PM PST

How often have I railed against the Federal Reserve, which everyone it seems look on as "capitalist" when actually it's harmful to capitalism? How often did I say the banks should ONLY be bailed out to the extent of deposits in them, nothing more? Have I not urged "socialist" programs that actually were of benefit such as road repairs, bridge repairs, other infrastructure improvements to provide jobs and get money back into the economy at the bottom where it needs to be instead of just lent at low to no interest at the top where they hoard it all? Yes, I've done all that. Basically I'm capitalist, but not for the type that engages in lobbying for unfair laws which benefit them, but others can't take advantage. The Love of Money is the root of all evil, Jesus said.

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The story is strong. And diverting from the path unthinkable
by crowsfoot / December 4, 2013 3:41 PM PST

There are others, others than you, who would have us go Gault. Have the smart and educated people just go on strike. Slam shut and let the devil take the hind most. Starve the beast.

Thank you for this post James. I know that I don't like to having to go back and back and re re define myself. I expect smart people to know what I'm talking about to begin with. If I've taken advantage of your words instead of understanding who and what you really are, I appoligize. Anyone who will put themselves out there like you do deserves not to have their words spun. To the extent I've done that, I'm sorry.

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by Steven Haninger / December 4, 2013 5:45 PM PST

All you seem to want to do is rob the financially successful. There just weren't enough of them left in Detroit to rob. Detroit just suffered from the "fairy ring" principle. It's nothing new. Other cities may fall too. Once the poison in the center is gone, growth may come back.

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other cities will see Detrioits lead as
by Roger NC / December 4, 2013 8:03 PM PST
In reply to: Balderdash

an easier way out.

While I realize Detroit is broke, and many see government pensions as fair game, I suspect we're going to see a lot of municipalities that have underfunded their pension plan see this as a precedent to let them off the hook.

It doesn't even matter so much what your opinion of whether the pension promises are fair or not, it's just plain wrong in so many ways to cut someone's pension after they retire, or just before, after they've planned their entire situation based on a contract/promise you're going to throw away now.

I heard an estimate Detroit under the current proposal would pay about 16 cent on the dollar, including pension plans. Just think if most of the retired in this country had their income other than savings gutted like that. Cut social security to 25% of it's current level, cut all private pensions to 25%, cut everything but what you've actually hold in deposits you made to 25%.

How many could even survive on pet food at that level?

Oh and they'll cut the medical retirement benefits too in Detroit as I hear it, including disability on the job cases. So add Medicare and Medicaid to those cuts for the nation and where are we?

Well, it would balance the federal budget I suppose.

Not accusing you personally of anything Steven, just pointing out what will happen, this will spread. And what would happen if it were carried out all over.

One thing about the move from defined pension plans to 401K contributions by many employers, they can't take it back. You may lose it in the market, depending on your choices and luck, but at least the company can go bankrupt and you lose what you had planned your life around. Of course the company doesn't have to go bankrupt, they're legally change pension plans all the time, even for those already retired.

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That's how a Ponzi scheme works...
by Steven Haninger / December 4, 2013 9:30 PM PST

...or why it only works for so long. You're paying yesterday's retirees with money from today's workers. Social Security could end up in the same boat should the US economy collapse. Detroit was a one industry town but it was a big town. Look at the mining communities in Ky and W.Va. that have all but died. You'll only hear of them in folk song but little in major media. Yes, it's not fair to those who were promised better. It won't be just those folks who will lose but those who bought Detroit's debt. Many buy such bonds as being safer choices for their retirement plans. Woops! They lose too.

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(NT) sometimes broke is broke I acknowledge
by Roger NC / December 5, 2013 8:25 AM PST
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Under Raygun, Bush and W
by crowsfoot / December 5, 2013 12:32 AM PST
In reply to: Balderdash

... crop diversification seems to mean both opoum AND cocoa. Further proof of certain inferiorities of certain colors and types of peoples. Yes?

>>>Rob the "financially successful.?<<< It's a binary thing. Either the money that money makes pays, or the money labor makes does. Over and over again it's been the one and not so much the other. It's not punishment when we make the deal under the gun. So working people win the war,,, in no time at all they're both paying for it AND the intrest. And pentions are up for grabs. All with the right story of course.

So the subject is WANTING to rob the financially successful. If taxes is robbing, then what we're doing is robbing labor. Don't you think?

What we need more of is us, a 300 (almost) year old country, telling the Tigris and Euphrates how childish they are. All while we fail to tax the obscenely rich in the name of... What? Fairness?

More debt! Yeah! That's the ticket.

Don't think of it as a tax increase. Think of it as a promise kept. Think of it as a rollback of temporary measures. The circumstances that make it hard to do now are because we didn't and don't want to remember. Or some of don't.

Yeah okay. I like cheap labor too. But the price I pay, your way, is my soul.

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It was for tax cuts on the money that money makes
by crowsfoot / December 5, 2013 1:03 AM PST

that we got so indebted in the first place. No?

When interest rates go up even 1 or 2 percent, we're screwed. Not that the work is any less hard. Or the sitting by the pool, sipping margiritas and waiting for the dividends check, is either.

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You continuously babble
by TONI H / December 5, 2013 6:59 AM PST

on blaming the rich.....do you ever consider the fact that liberals spend and spend and spend....which NECESSITATES the belief that more taxes are required? When do you blame the spending that ISN'T necessary as the fault for our debt?

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I'm all for cutting spending.
by crowsfoot / December 6, 2013 2:47 AM PST

Let's go over the cuts one by one. I'm not blaming the rich directly. I'm faulting the Republican party for adapting a blatant fear tactic.

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We had us a little Nazi problem. You might recall.
by crowsfoot / December 6, 2013 5:37 AM PST

We were on track to pay off the bills under Eisenhower and get back to normal. AND THEN... This whole Starve The Beast thing. National suicide.

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And before BO
by TONI H / December 6, 2013 6:20 AM PST

we had a little problem called 9-11, you might recall........but even with that, Bush didn't increase spending in 8 years like BO has done in under 5. He has DOUBLED the National Debt all by his lonesome, but doesn't think HE'S unpatriotic or unAmerican like he called Bush. And now BO has added trillions again to the debt with Obamacare.

Tell me again about how Gawd-awful the Republicans are compared to the Democrats that have put NO reins on their spending, until sequestration forced the issue. Detroit had Democrats in power for 40 years, and look at it today. Under BO (with Pelosi and Harry Reid in lockstep), the USA will BE Detroit in a short period of time....and we'll be looking like Greece et al shortly after that.

The absolute worst thing that has happened to this country, until BO, was NAFTA......because it shifted massive amounts of jobs overseas and it just continues because nobody has had the courage (interpret that as 'balls') to get rid of it. It was finally discussed and offered up by Republicans during the last Presidential debate between the candidates and nearly all agreed that it had to go.

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Okay then. All rignt. Go Gault.
by crowsfoot / December 6, 2013 6:40 AM PST
In reply to: And before BO

There's no way to stop you. Try it and see what you get.

Disrespect whomever you want to. Disrepect: effort. Disrespect tonnage per hour. Tonnage per day. Play the ******* card. Go ahead. I dare you.

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Since I have no idea
by TONI H / December 6, 2013 7:37 AM PST

what you mean by 'go Gault'.....I'll ignore that while I wait for an explanation.

In the meantime, the only disrespect I have is for BO.......and what he's deliberately done to this country for a personal agenda.

As for Detroit.....there is actually a Republican plan by Rand Paul that he is proposing to try to get Detroit to have the ability to save itself. Since Detroit has nowhere else to go but up at this point, I think the Democrats would be wise to sit back, say nothing, and allow this plan to take place. It will either fail or succeed on its own merits, but it's definitely worth taking a shot at it, since if it does work, other cities will find that they have options as well.


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Well then, how about
by crowsfoot / December 6, 2013 11:37 AM PST
In reply to: Since I have no idea

the next superiority cult to come along, bent on enslaving us all, you don't ask us to participate? You really think that you can do that! You've got the story down in your mind just that good!

If you don't know what going Galt means, that's you. Not me. Look it up. And good luck.

In the mean time, can we please just try not to welch quite so openly? Polish up the old word game a bit. And, oh yeah. Let's go ahead and fininsh paying off the debt like we said we would. We really don't need that. Second best, if that's not appetizing to you, how about not expecting those interest payments? How about that? Money that money makes.

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and NAFTA wasn't opposed by the R's
by Roger NC / December 6, 2013 10:00 AM PST
In reply to: And before BO

in fact Bush pushed it.

Both sides have problems, I still say.

And today, both parties are being corrupted, tainted, and captured by less than half their membership that is the loudest and the best campaign fund raisers.

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I didn't say that Reps weren't involved
by TONI H / December 6, 2013 6:43 PM PST

I'm saying that the Reps are the only ones who have recognized that NAFTA was a huge mistake and are willing to make the changes necessary to revisit and change/do away with it. The Dems are loathe to admit any of their policies were/are wrong and instead just keep throwing tax payer money at a problem to 'fix' them.

Bush didn't push it (at least not Bush 43)........there were other 'trade' agreements' that he believed could be beneficial, but those agreements didn't even get passed until BO came into office. NAFTA has been around since at least the early 1970's, in various forms. Bush 41 was the one who negotiated the actual NAFTA Trade deal in 1992, but Clinton is the one who signed it into law in 1994. It was originally supposed to only be between the USA, Canada, and Mexico.....but it's been expanded greatly to the detriment of the USA.

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which Bush did what?
by Roger NC / December 6, 2013 11:15 PM PST

Hmm so the first Bush negotiated the deal, but it was Clinton's fault for signing it into law.

Bush 43 didn't provide for keeping all the cheap illegal labor in the country by helping making them legal? and not pushing for, indeed I think quietly fighting against, making it harder for illegals to get work?

I'll agree that things get expanded past what they are originally presented as to get approval, the nose of the camel in the tent effect. A standard tactic of all politicians.

I voted for both Bush presidents. The problem now the choice is always between extreme platforms that both aren't intended for me. I voted for Romney too, the lessor of two evils. Actually before Romney pandered to the more draconic conservatives to just get the nomination I liked him much better. I was seriously put off by Cheney and Ryan as vp, neither to me caring about the majority of us.

Yes, Democrats have pandered to buying votes with social programs. Recently Republicans have lived up to and even encourage the image of supporting big business, fat cats, and old white men.

Too bad our two party system is so entrenched and the political process so expensive and dependent on the party money machines that it's impossible for a true third choice to arise.

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>>>The absolute worst thing
by crowsfoot / December 6, 2013 2:22 PM PST
In reply to: And before BO

that has happened to this country, until BO, was NAFTA......because it shifted massive amounts of jobs overseas and it just continues because nobody has had the courage (interpret that as 'balls') to get rid of it. It was finally discussed and offered up by Republicans during the last Presidential debate between the candidates and nearly all agreed that it had to go.<<< - TONI

You want massive amounts of jobs going overseas? Picture Dan Quayle sitting down there in charge of The Council on Competitiveness.

In the mean time, back at the ranch, is Ollie North with the keys to the armory and a blank check. Or two.

BO is the first to double the debt? I don't think so. Handed a s***pie? Yes.

Good thing W had adults in the room. Eh? Like Powell. And like **** and Donald and all.

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People relied on government...
by drpruner / December 4, 2013 7:32 AM PST

...of the people, someone once said.

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