For those outside the church, I think they have a right to raise critical questions. If they do, they should listen to the answers. Some questions will be ridiculed and condemned such as the suggestions that he has a Nazi mentality. That is at it should be, and is the price to be paid for entering the conversation.
Christians outside the church also have every right to enter the debate. If the RCC were to change its stance on, for example, homosexuality, it would be that much more difficult for other churches to maintain their positions. If the RCC goes against the teachings of scripture, it can expect a shower of criticism from outside the church. This is also as it should be. The RCC is part of the church universal which has every right to comment on its teachings and practices. We've all learned what happens when there is no outside accountability.
We are commanded to be ready to give answers to those who question our beliefs. We cannot escape that responsibility to those outside the church. We need to try to persuade them if our views are soundly based on scripture, or change them if they are not.
It is certain that the RCC will make its own decisions however that process works within the RCC. It will be held responsible for those decisions for better or for worse. That is as it should be. Once it does, if members disagree with those decisions, they should strongly consider leaving it rather than creating controversy and disunion within the church.
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General discussion
Defending the faith
I found this quote humorous:
"You see, praise and pre-judgement from non-Catholics is as worthless as fresh underwear at a nudist colony."
Regarding the remainder of the article, I suppose we could substitute "Catholic" with many other words. Sometimes, however, what happens with one "family" affects many other families. What do y'all think about this in regard to that idea? Does what happens in the Catholic Church affect those of us who are non-Catholic?
Granted, all free people are entitled to their thoughts, the only voices that really matter when it comes to the future of the Catholic church belong to, well, Catholics.
So, after the smoke has cleared and the mysticism of the conclave has grown old on non-Catholics, it is up to the 1.1 billion of us who choose to be a part of this family to help plot its future.
And, like any family, we don't agree on all things.
The advice or urging of pedestrian pundits will have no bearing on any future decisions the church may make -- as it shouldn't.
Because Catholics, ultimately, are the ones who will bear the consequences of the church's direction.
So, to all the non-Catholic defenders of the new Pope, you are more than welcome to sign up for baptism class and join the family.
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Discussion is locked
9 Posts
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if they agree to use the bible- any bible. They all say "...one lord, one faith, one baptism..." somewhere, I think. 
Regards, Doug in New Mexico
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....as I can remember the beliefs, rituals, etc. of the Catholic Church have been criticized by non-Catholics.
It has been said that Catholics worship "images" (statues), so are idolatrous. That they do not read or study the Bible (I even heard that they were not permitted to do so). That they do not pray to God directly because they think their prayers must have an intermediary to be heard, And, a favorite one- the stance of the Church on Catholic marriages.
A few years ago a group of young people were targeting only Catholic homes in my neighborhood, saying they wanted to "bring you close to Jesus" (assuming they were not).
When I was a teenager I visited a church service with a friend of mine- we did that a lot in my town. The sermon was anti-RCC, and the congregation knelt around me to pray for my conversion to their church.
When other denominations are truly interested in an ecumenical joining of common views and understanding, I believe that each one will have an effect on all the rest.
Angeline
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com
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They can appear as very pagan. And, to some, to completely strip all visible signatures of a "false" religion is as necessary as adopting the core beliefs of a "true" one. This, IMHO, can only satisfy our human weaknesses in knowing how to find truth. Our perceptions aren't always correct but we still let them control our behavior and develop our prejudices...and too often make enemies of well meaning people.
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?... We are therefore always of good courage and know that, while we have our home in the body, we are absent from the [invisible] Lord, for we are walking by faith, not by sight [of icons et al.] ...? (2Co 5:6-7)
Regards, Doug in New Mexico
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And of course counterproductive. Doubt it was us; we don't do the 'group prayer' thing. I've researched some of these ideas myself, so you might be interested in an 'outsider's' view. You're welcome to keep your beliefs, if they mean that much to you. I offer this only because you made some statements that others will find non-factual, so you weaken your own case. I agree there's much misunderstanding about other religions, and we do our part to pass along accurate knowledge.
RC doctrine finds a difference between "worship" and "veneration." The former (they say) goes only to God- in three persons, remember- while the latter is what is given to saints, statues, articles of clothing, etc. All well and good, although I find the philosophy harder to follow than the bible's teachings. (?You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion. . .? (Ex 20:4-5))
There's a brief example from the redoubtable Aquinas, "Whether any kind of worship is due to the relics of the saints?" at
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/402506.htm
And on a personal note, I've always wondered what would happen to a lay Catholic's religiosity if one removed all these "venerated" things from his life. Doctrine says it shouldn't matter, but ...
As to "intermediary," you'll want to check "Iucunda Semper Expectatione; On the Rosary [by] His Holiness Pope Leo XIII, September 8, 1894" at
http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_le13is.htm
Contains the word "mediatrix" (L.fem.sing.) four times as a title for Mary. A glance at my Catechisms shows me the Rosary does indeed include several prayers to Mary, and to Jesus, the "son" of God.
"ecumenical joining of common views"
I understand "ecumenism" (in life, not necessarily the dictionary) to be something different from "joining of common views," and covered by Ex 20:4-5, above.
And there's some useful information in this Awake!, 1991 Feb 22, pp. 6-8, "A Dilemma for the Catholic Church."
'not permitted to study the bible'
That is a sad fact of RC history, but I assume you mean in these more enlightened times. In fact, I know something that many of your colleagues don't know: "A partial indulgence is granted to the faithful who use Sacred Scripture for spiritual reading with the veneration(!) due the word of God. A plenary indulgence is granted if the reading continues for at least one half hour. (Enchiridion Indulgentiarum, 1968 edition, no. 50." From my NAB, St, joseph's Edition.
So much for doctrine. At the real-life doors I go to, I often ask, "Are you interested in the bible?" The reply is often, "No, we're Catholic." One woman said, "Yes," then brought out a missal!
Regards, Doug surrounded by front-yard veneration in New Mexico
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scripture. It is interesting that you put Jesus into the same class as Mary without mentioning that this equality is not accepted by Christians. You are equating the Creator (John 1) with the creation. It is deceptive to neglect to explain how your views differ from orthodox Christian views.
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When you think about it, the physical Bible is an object produced by humans that many clutch while in prayer. Perhaps, for these folks, the tactile sensation of having the book in hand improves their focus and creates (in them) a certain important "nearness" they need to pray properly. I've known many who will place bibles stratigically in their homes more as adornments and reminders to them of their faith...something they can just gaze on when feeling a need to find strenght to face a task or problem. Catholics and many other Christian believers will have a crucifix or other image in their homes which serves the same purpose. Should I say it's ok to clutch an unopened Bible but not a crucifix during a prayerful moment?...or should it be neither? I ask only rhetorically, of course....but I see no difference.
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that it's your attitude toward the object that matters, and only you and Jehovah know that. More to your point:
The bible is a given for Christians, but the other things are optional/traditional. Ex.: Cross vs. crucifix.
'a bible they can just gaze on' Suggestion: 'Open and read' may be more effective.
Again, take away all the Catholic or Orthodox symbols, or a Muslim's Kaaba, and see what happens.
When early Roman officials went gunning for Christians, the records show they were surprised and disappointed in not finding any "real" religious items; no statues or incense burners. Only 'some scrolls, which these people seemed to value.'
"Religious objects" is a subset of the jewelry business; no religious feeling meant or implied.
Many of the front-yard shrines we see are in bad shape. (We call one of them "Jesus and Mary with leprosy.") Not a good advert for one's God. BTW we're counseled to use a decent-looking bible at the doors, for the same reason.
Regards, Doug in New Mexico
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