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Debate rages on gay tolerance

Debate Flares Over Teaching Kids Tolerance.
(Washington Post login: semods4@yahoo.com; pw = speakeasy)

The conservatives' answer (including that of newly confirmed Education Secretary Margaret Spellings, whose letter to PBS warning warning the public TV network against airing an upcoming episode of the kids show "Postcards From Buster" in which Buster visits a Vermont farm with "two mommies," is best summed up in the following Rogers and Hammerstein lyric from South Pacific -- You've got to be carefully taught:
>>You've got to be taught before it's too late
Before you are six or seven or eight
To hate all the people your relatives hate
You've got to be carefully taught<<

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!
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Your quote

In reply to: Debate rages on gay tolerance

"You've got to be taught before it's too late, Before you are six or seven or eight"

Isn't that the mantra of the NAMBA, "Sex before eight or its too late"?

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(NT) (NT) Hate before eight or it's too late

In reply to: Your quote

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(NT) (NT) Absolutely right (as in correct), Diana. Kudos

In reply to: (NT) Hate before eight or it's too late

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The only agenda gays and lesbians have is to be treated

In reply to: (NT) Absolutely right (as in correct), Diana. Kudos

equally and to be free from discrimination. They're not recruiting, they just want to be recognized as full and equal participants in society and not as pariahs or "sinners" needing to be saved or cured.

God knows it would be easier for them to be straight and not have to deal with all the crap.

Rob Boyter

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What's your point?

In reply to: Your quote

Maybe NAMBLA got the idea for the slogan from the song.

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i want to be there when litlle Johnny comes home and says

In reply to: Debate rages on gay tolerance

"Mommy, we have a new kid in class, he has a daddy but his "mommy" is a "daddy" too, must be a real PITA having kids in his family"

sheesh! i know people who have major problems explaining the "birds and the bees".... what happens when it's "birds and birds"??


jonah "let me here a hallelujah for women and wombs" jones


.

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But that's the real world, Jonah.

Refusing to deal with reality is not a well-adjusted approach! Here's an op-ed piece along those lines:
Bluster over TV's 'Buster' only splits us further apart.
(Chronicle login: semods4@yahoo.com; pw = speakeasy)

>>What world are Education Secretary Margaret Spellings and the executives at PBS living in? It seems they think that there is one world where all the families and children live and another, separate one where all those gay people live. Apparently it's up to (straight) parents to decide when to open the borders and let their children have a controlled peek at the other side.<<

The parallels to dealing with differences in race, religion, and ethnicities in previous times are clear, and chilling. Homophobia really is the last legal form of discrimination, and it's way past time that stopped!

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Homophobia really is the last legal form of discrimination,

In reply to: But that's the real world, Jonah.

... and it's way past time that stopped!

This has got to be one of the most overused and erroneous cliches.

Were you taught hatred in your family?

Evie Happy

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Hi, Evie.

Since you asked, my father hated "queers," and passed that on to me. That was the last of my discriminatory behaviors/attitudes to be cured, perhaps 15 years ago now.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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The cure was a personal evolution ...

In reply to: Hi, Evie.

... as such normally occurs. The cure should not have been indoctrination at a young age by some government agency that knew better what was "proper" for you. No matter what the beliefs of your parents, they were entitled to them and entitled to raise their children as they saw fit so long as that didn't include abuse. Doubtful your Catholic upbringing included turning whatever hatred you were raised with to violence.

The surest way to polarize those that object to homosexuality further against it is to enforce the notion of normalcy through PC, indoctrination, etc.

Evie Happy

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Homophobia is legal discrimination? PC B?S!

In reply to: But that's the real world, Jonah.

cards on the table dave? i happen to think that one guy ******* another guy in the *** is disgusting!

and so as to prevent you calling me 'homophobic' i also think that eating worms or beetles or vomit or octopus is disgusting too!

everybody says "gay rights"? well i happen to believe in "straight rights" and that means that i don't want/like/encourage "two daddy" families....

am i discriminating...i don't think so!

.

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I agree with one thing in your post, Jonah.

In reply to: Homophobia is legal discrimination? PC B?S!

>>I also think that eating worms or beetles or vomit or octopus is disgusting too! <<

Yes, but instead of discriminating against those folks in employement or civil rights, we put them on TV, watch them do it, give them prizes, and call them entertainment. Or don't they show "Fear Factor" over there?

Point is, there are lot of things that may be repugnant. I find S&M sex just as discusting as you find homosexuality, but heterosexual couples who engage in that bahavior (as well as the one you so graphically describe in your first sentence) can still get file jointly on their income tax and get spousal medical coverage, even though both behaviors can obviously be harmful to their health.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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What does this have to do ...

In reply to: I agree with one thing in your post, Jonah.

... with indoctrinating children in the name of "diversity"?

Good to see you are finally coming around to recognizing that homosexuality is a behavior, not an innate characteristic like gender or race.

Evie Happy

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There's no proof for that

In reply to: What does this have to do ...

homosexuality is a behavior

There is also no proof for a gay gene. At least one study has found a genetic influence for sexual orientation though. In the off chance that they are born that way, is it OK for us to persecute them for the way nature made them?

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Ummm....

In reply to: There's no proof for that

.... Clay, I am ONLY saying that homosexuality is a behavior in the manner that ALL sexuality is behavior -- an appetite for the risky (S&M to use DK's example), promiscuity, chaste heterosexual couplings, orgies, etc...

BTW, if they find a genetic influence for pedophilia should we start inculcating children that such is genetically determined, therefore no different than "normal" and must be accepted in the name of "diversity"??

Who is persecuting homosexuals?

Evie Happy

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OK

In reply to: Ummm....

I am ONLY saying that homosexuality is a behavior in the manner that ALL sexuality is behavior

OK. I only meant that I am not convinced it is a choice or a chosen behavior. Of the gays I've known, I believe they were likely born that way.

BTW, if they find a genetic influence for pedophilia should we start inculcating children that such is genetically determined, therefore no different than "normal" and must be accepted in the name of "diversity"??

For me that is comparing apples and oranges. Pedophilia is never victimless. OTOH, if it is shown to be caused genetically then I would think we should send them to mental institutions instead of prisonsYour point is noted though, genetic cause does not imply normality.

Who is persecuting homosexuals?

Look around. There are plenty that will persecute them for what they are regardless of why they are that way. I did not mean to sound or imply that you had done so though if it sounded that way.

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I think we have some agreement here ...

In reply to: OK

... and I come from the perspective of a former feminist on some of this. I remember all the "studies" done to prove the male brain was different, that men were biologically wired against monogamy (of course this was a conspiracy to excuse male infidelity), etc.

Homosexuality remains aberrant behavior (note to those less likely to read this carefully, I didn't say abhorent) exhibited by a very small minority of the population. I just don't see how not extending a privilege to this minority (talking marriage here) is persecution. And yet this is but one of many "rights" that are claimed to make them the targets of discrimination.

I don't think the schools should be the indocrinators of "diversity" for diversity's sake. Pre-schoolers don't need to be indoctrinated about the various alternative families and taught that homosexuality is ACCEPTABLE (not just to be tolerated without hate or violence) against the beliefs of their parents. If religion can't be taught then neither should things that go against the religion of others be indoctrinated into children by the agencies of government? If I didn't want my child to go play over at Ben and Ken's kid's house, that should be my choice and I don't need my child being muzzled from expressing something as innocent as "my Mommy doesn't want me to play with you" lest he/she get scuttled away for "sensitivity training" to correct the behavior.

This hate before eight stuff just seems so BS to me. I didn't know what a homosexual really was until well in to my teens and it hasn't stopped me from having several gay friends. My parents had prejudices. They didn't teach them to me per se, but neither did school teachers and TV use me as a guinea pig in their social agenda.

As to pedophilia being "never victimless" ... not sure about that. There are those like Kinsey that would argue it is beneficial to the child Sad

I've only seen one person here ever suggest something even close to persecution. Seems to be a bit of an emotive word. JMO.

Evie Happy

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Gotta agree with one thing, Evie.

In reply to: I think we have some agreement here ...

If I didn't want my child to go play over at Ben and Ken's kid's house, that should be my choice and I don't need my child being muzzled from expressing something as innocent as "my Mommy doesn't want me to play with you" lest he/she get scuttled away for "sensitivity training" to correct the behavior.

My views are probably as strong as anyone's here, since they're from the (in)famous bible. Happy But my TV has a power switch, and my young kids (if I had any) wouldn't socialize with Ben and Ken. At the same time, my 'strict, judgmental' religion forbids me to bash or even be rude.

BTW, I'm not sure "sensitivity training" means your child has. to go to Ben's (if that's what you were thinking). It does mean (in the schools where I teach) that we're polite to each other in class, and that we ought to smile and say "hello" when we pass on the street.
Regards, Doug in New Mexico, where men are men, and the women are pretty sure that's the case.
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True Doug, if the kids don't have something in common

In reply to: Gotta agree with one thing, Evie.

nothing will get them together, and if they like one another, nothing will pull them apart.

Rob Boyter, in Canada, where men are men, and the trees are nervous.

Old joke,
Definition of a virgin in Arkansas is a girl who can outrun her brothers.
Definition of virging wool is it comes from sheep that can outrun the farmer.
I got so disgusted I stopped reading before I found out what virgin timber was.

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Actually Doug ...

In reply to: Gotta agree with one thing, Evie.

... it is not too far-fetched to envision the following scenario.

-Johnny comes home and says he has made a friend in Jimmy

-Johnny is invited to go to Jimmy's home

-Not knowing Jimmy's folks, the parents decide to call them before letting their little Johnny spend an afternoon in his home.

-So the call is made and and Ben picks up the phone. 'Who will be home with the kid?' is one question asked. 'Why my life partner Ken' replies Ben.

-At this point Johnny's parents do not feel comfortable with the idea of Johnny spending time in Jimmy's home.

*** There is nothing wrong with that!!! ***

-Towards the end of the conversation the parents politely decline the playdate invitation. They tell Johnny that he should continue to play with and be friends with Jimmy in school, but they are not comfortable with him going over to Johnny's house. They may even go so far as to say that Jimmy is, however, welcome in their home.

-Next day in school Jimmy asks Johnny about the playdate and Johnny says he can't go over because his parents don't know Jimmy's parents very well and aren't comfortable with it.

-Jimmy exclaims "it's because they're gay isn't it!"

-"What do you mean" asks Johnny ...

-Eventually the discussion is overheard by PC teacher and Johnny is "being disruptive", or worse yet, he used the wrong term or expressed it the wrong way and he gets tagged with having used hate speech. The parents may even be called in for a conference for being intolerant.

These little absurd items in the news these days tell us that the above scenario is far from being out of the question. Now the school system can't force Johnny's parents to let him go play at Jimmy's, but they can make life a royal pain for a while, and they can undermine the parents (that basically feel Johnny isn't ready to have to deal with homosexuality at six years old) by creating an atmosphere where Johnny is made to feel like he is a bad person for not embracing diversity with a big kumbaya!

I often leave Nick at Nite on low volume when I go to sleep. At 6am it turns from sitcom reruns to cartoons and there's Nick News with Linda Ellerbe. The "news stories" are VERY slanted to promote "diversity" and a leftist enviromental agenda. It is difficult to watch such programming without seeing it as advancing an agenda by getting to them early with their agenda. All those railing against "hate before eight" seem to have no problem with "indoctrinate before eight or its too late". Read the NEA's position papers and social engineering curricula. It is all quite scary.

Public schools have long since ceased to be community schools that complement the parents in a community and teach kids skills for life. They have become arms of an intrusive government that seeks to impose its values on everything from sexuality to religion (radical secularism and environmentalism IS a religion in and of itself) to politics beginning at whatever age an apathetic populace will allow them to.

Evie Happy

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Substitute black for gay and re run your argument.

In reply to: Actually Doug ...

and you're right back in the 60's and early 70's.

Rob Boyter

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Being black and being gay are NOT the same thing. One

In reply to: Substitute black for gay and re run your argument.

is a biological issue, the other is a moral issue. Many blacks are insulted by the notion that black and gay are equivalent. I think you owe the black community an apology.

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(NT) (NT) So you can prove they're not both biological?

In reply to: Being black and being gay are NOT the same thing. One

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(NT) (NT) There is abundant evidence of that. Identical twins are

In reply to: (NT) So you can prove they're not both biological?

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Evidence of what?

In reply to: (NT) There is abundant evidence of that. Identical twins are

That blacks are not black because of their biology or that gays are not born that way because of biology? I am not aware that anyone has concluded that sexual orientation is not biological. Can you provide any links?

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And that's not intimination of the debate?

In reply to: Substitute black for gay and re run your argument.

Isn't playing a 'guilt trip' about opposing a homosexual lifestyle is the same as being racially prejudice trying to force people to accept your belief?

JMO

Roger

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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(NT) (NT) But you can't just make the substitution.

In reply to: Substitute black for gay and re run your argument.

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Good, thoughful post, Evie.

In reply to: Actually Doug ...

First: I agree with your scenario; we've already experienced something similar on other issues, many more flammable. (Flag salute, military service, medical treatments ...)
In the United States, for the time being, here's what would happen if the "offending" child is a Witness: Kid goes home crying with a note for parent-principal conference initiated by the PC teacher. Upset parent calls a congregation elder. Elder sends a note to the legal department in Brooklyn. Brooklyn sends back a packet of legal citations. Parents and perhaps the elder visit the school and show the material to the principal. Principal turns pale, calls in the teacher and informs him of the need to keep his opinions to himself and apologize to the parents. In the US, for the time being.

Maybe you need to belong to an organization with more clout. Happy If not, but if you had a strong connection to the bible, you could tell the school board what Peter told the men who were nominally his religious and political authorities: Acts 4:19,20; 5:29. But don't play that card unless you're ready for all the possible consequences: Acts 7:60. Also, you'll need effective, internally consistent teaching materials for your kids. Besides the bible we have published several over the years. Visit your nearest Kingdom Hall and ask to see them. Maybe they'll give you one just to get rid of you. Happy

Also, we train our kids for abstinence and heterosexuality, but not by ignoring the alternatives. We honestly acknowledge the pressures from peers and from within, because the bible does. (Gen 39; 2 Sam 11; Gen 34- the good, the bad, the ugly.) Speaking of Gen 34, when we read it we ask ourselves and our kids, "What could Dinah have done to prevent it? Did Shechem have any good points? Were the consequences only in the family, or otherwise? Did we notice that a cross-reference from Gen 34:1 is 1 Co 15:33? What were the 'bad associations,' if any?"

Ellerbee is a veteran journalist with her own history under the glass ceiling. (And a breast cancer survivor also, I think. That changes one.) No doubt she relishes a chance to 'get back.' I like her credentials, so I listen to her if she pops up on the TV. But I don't listen for long when she's into the area you mentioned. Nick's on cable, which we've never had for money reasons. Again, the TV has a switch, and we don't let our kids watch it unattended. We're not alone; isn't "Knowledge- the anti-drug" a secular advertising catchphrase?

"Public schools have long since ceased to be community schools that complement the parents"
Very. long since. We've been re-educating our kids for years, every day beginning when the bus drops them at home. Happy In the old days, when schools weren't afraid to mention Christianity and bible values- the 50s, let's say- they also taught our kids allegiance to imperfect men and pieces of cloth, and to get into deadly fights with entire nations. That night, we would re-teach them Daniel ch. 3; Dan 2:44; Isa 2:4, 11:9; John 13:34,35; Mr 12:17 (the whole verse, not just the first half).
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

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Linda Ellerbe

In reply to: Good, thoughful post, Evie.

I have nothing but respect for her personally. She does a really good job with her new gig too. I'm not even sure she realizes the bias in some of the things because it is so ingrained -- e.g. the ideology behind Earth Day. Also, the whole show is not constant bias. Almost makes it more insidious when the indoctrinating slips in, because if you didn't watch it start to finish several times, you could easily miss it. I don't have kids, but if/when I do I'm giving very strong consideration to home schooling them or becoming a teacher in their school when the time comes Wink

Evie Happy

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Surely, Doug

In reply to: Gotta agree with one thing, Evie.

You would not deny your children the society of their friends because of the sins of their fathers. Would you?

Dan

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