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General discussion

Death penalty saves lives?

Jun 11, 2007 3:38AM PDT

Now keep in mind I am against the death penalty. Not because I shrink from an "eye for an eye" philosophy, but I find it horrific that even one innocent person should ever be executed... and there is proof that innocent people have been executed. I view this as murder by the state.

But on the other hand...


... a series of academic studies over the last half-dozen years that claim to settle a once hotly debated argument ? whether the death penalty acts as a deterrent to murder. The analyses say yes. They count between three and 18 lives that would be saved by the execution of each convicted killer.

The reports have horrified death penalty opponents and several scientists, who vigorously question the data and its implications.

"Science does really draw a conclusion. It did. There is no question about it," said Naci Mocan, an economics professor at the University of Colorado at Denver. "The conclusion is there is a deterrent effect."

A 2003 study he co-authored, and a 2006 study that re-examined the data, found that each execution results in five fewer homicides, and commuting a death sentence means five more homicides. "The results are robust, they don't really go away," he said. "I oppose the death penalty. But my results show that the death penalty (deters) ? what am I going to do, hide them?"

Statistical studies like his are among a dozen papers since 2001 that capital punishment has deterrent effects. They all explore the same basic theory ? if the cost of something (be it the purchase of an apple or the act of killing someone) becomes too high, people will change their behavior (forego apples or shy from murder).

To explore the question, they look at executions and homicides, by year and by state or county, trying to tease out the impact of the death penalty on homicides by accounting for other factors, such as unemployment data and per capita income, the probabilities of arrest and conviction, and more.

Among the conclusions:

? Each execution deters an average of 18 murders, according to a 2003 nationwide study by professors at Emory University. (Other studies have estimated the deterred murders per execution at three, five and 14).

? The Illinois moratorium on executions in 2000 led to 150 additional homicides over four years following, according to a 2006 study by professors at the University of Houston.

? Speeding up executions would strengthen the deterrent effect. For every 2.75 years cut from time spent on death row, one murder would be prevented, according to a 2004 study by an Emory University professor.



Now, I have publicly proposed before that if the death penalty is to act as effectively as possible as a deterrent, that all executions should be held publicly. Not only that they should be public but that they should be televised across all TV channels (cable, network, local, et al) if the justification for use of the penalty is that it is a deterrent to others.

Then again, like I say, if one innocent person is killed by the state in the name of justice... it is as if we all have committed murder.

Discussion is locked

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Mistakes are only inevitable....
Jun 11, 2007 6:52AM PDT

when you set the bar low enough for them to happen. Our justice system needs to be held to a higher standard. There's no need to outlaw the death penalty, just make sure that those you use it on are guilty beyond any shadow of a doubt. NO innocent person should ever face the death penalty metted out by a system that is supposed to protect the innocent.

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I agree, but...
Jun 11, 2007 7:07AM PDT

perfection can never be achieved in any system.

And if you make execution too rare it seems the benefit of saving many more innocents might be lost. Do you want that?

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The alternative is not "let them go scot free"
Jun 11, 2007 7:25AM PDT

It seems I am hearing "either we invoke the death penalty or more will die" on one side and "we cannot invoke the death penalty if any innocents could be killed under it" on the other.

I think the compromise is not to let the accused out to murder the 3-18 more people the statistics point to, but lock them away for life (or until innocence is apparent). In other words, if there _is_ a shadow of a doubt as to their guilt, lock them away instead of invoking the death penalty. That way if they were not executed, they are around for a pardon or release if found not guilty later.

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I think you are not understanding it...
Jun 11, 2007 7:29AM PDT

I believe the 3-18 murders prevented are not murders done by that one criminal, they are 3-18 murders by ANYONE which would be deterred because of the execution.

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Ahhh
Jun 11, 2007 7:36AM PDT

Yes, thanks for the clarification. That being the case, the state would end up weighing the value of innocent executions against the perceived value of the execution itself as a deterrent.

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Edit.
Jun 11, 2007 7:41AM PDT

"value of innocent exections" in my prior post was meant to be "negative impact of innocent executions".

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I was once a DP advocate until
Jun 11, 2007 8:40AM PDT

one day a cop told me it costs a ton of money, with the appeals process. Though I've like the DP in principal, I've decided then that I'd rather have more money to spend on prisons. If the guy is in for life, then that is a deterrent.

Some people who are against the DP site instances in which a guy apparently takes too long to die, or who experiences pain. I'd ask them how much pain he has caused other people. But I've found that some states do not use the proper procedure for the DP.

That last is a side issue for me since the first paragraph seems to cover my bases -- even if the DP is something of a deterrence above and beyond being out of circulation forever or until there is a natural death (that is, unless another prisoner kills him...good riddance).

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Quick is good...
Jun 11, 2007 8:57AM PDT

The issue of painless is nonsensical since many of us will experience a long, drawn out death in a hospital with tubes stuck in our bodies,,, pain killers trying to stem the tides of age. A quick death is merciful.

I wasn't trying to be morbid. Just factual.

Life is pain. It's what tells us we are alive.

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I was in the same boat....
Jun 11, 2007 10:48AM PDT

Like yourself though, I found out it costs like 10 times more to get someone executed than it does to support them for life. Then along comes DNA testing and the ever flowing news reports of exonerations. I still favor the DP for unquestionable guilt with a greatly reduced appeals process but the rest can just rot in jail.

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Id like to go a little further with some crimes
Jun 11, 2007 12:30PM PDT

For child abuse and rape, I'd throw away the key.

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I agree
Jun 11, 2007 2:04PM PDT

I'm not so sure any punishment is "cruel and unusual" when it comes to verified child molesters. Rapists are not far behind.