Dean admits using deferment to skirt draft.

Dean claimed a bad back; then went skiing. GW at least served in the National Guard. He took the chance that his unit would be called up. Cheney certainly didn't do the same thing. He had legitimate deferrments as did thousands of others.

Dean did not "claim a bad back." He had a medical examination and was rejected by the draft board as a result. That he was able to ski does not mean he met the physical requirements for military service at that time.

It's interesting to note that Pat Buchanan was also rejected for medical reasons. Buchanan himself said that in 1960, when he was 21, the draft board rejected him because he had Reiter's syndrome. What's that, you ask? It's a form of arthritis usually caused by chlamydia, a sexually transmitted disease.

One of the "thousands of others" to whom you refer was former President Bill Clinton, who is still called a draft-dodger by his opponents despite it. And I'd use the word "served" with tongue planted firmly in cheek when describing GWB's stint in the ANG.

Josh, I noticed that you didn't mention **** Cheney again. Since he started having heart attacks in the 1970's, I can't but wonder about the state of health of his heart before that.
I have more respect for someone who served in the ANG than I do someone who agreed to join a ROTC program to get a deferment and when the time came to show up didn't, but went to another country.
Ah, well, it's still too early, there are too many candidates for the Democratic nomination. When it shaves down to one or two it'll be easier to look into things like driving records when they were younger, casino spending records, and other such things that are apparently now "in play".

Of course we can only speculate whether Cheney would have passed the physical since he never got that far.

Again mentioning my amusement at the term "served" regarding Bush, since he used family/political connections to get himself bumped ahead of others on the waiting list for the ANG, went AWOL for nearly two years (not one person who he was supposed to have served with during that period can remember ever seeing him), was once grounded for failing to show up for a physical (some have speculated that he was worried that he'd be subjected to a drug test -- random screening had just been instituted), and got himself discharged early so he could attend Harvard Business School.

It will be interesting indeed if the Democratic nominee turns out to be John Kerry, and the two start comparing their records of military service.

Hi, J.

The only reason casino activities came into play was because the "whale" in question wrote a book telling others how to be virtuous. What's that quote about not pointing out the mote in someone else's eye while ignoring the beam in your own?
-- Dave K.

Dave does that mean that it would be O.K. for someone to get their hands on the private business records of a Democrat, justified by an opinion they said in a book?
Dave, what if I slipped a pile of bucks to somebody at a resort, got the billing records of Ted Kennedy, and publically used the details of the liquor bill to politically damage him? (Also out of line, in my opinion.)
I find your political double standard to be somewhat frightening. It seems to be that you condone illegal actions as long as they are against a Republican.

Hi, J.

I frankly don't know the details of how the information was obtained. If it was by illegal means, I definitely oppose that. My recollection is that he was recognized going into a high rollers' area, and someone interviewed some casino employees -- but it could well have gone beyond that later. Guess what happens in Vega$ doesn't always stay there, after all...
-- Dave K.

Hi Dave:

I don't recall Ted Kennedy ever writing a book decrying the evils of alcohol, do you?

not by him but about him from public record.

Most also concerned some female named Mary Jo and most mention his love affair with the bottle and how it affected his relationship with the aforementioned Mary Jo...

"Do we operate under a system of equal justice under
law? Or is there one system for the average citizen
and another for the high and mighty?"
- Senator Ted Kennedy, 1973 -

because as the "epitome" of the drunkard and lush one does often say "He wrote the book!" so yes, he did.

To be honest, Josh, I never read Bennett's book. I assume you have. What did he say about casino gambling?
But that's neither here nor there relating to either Bennett or Kennedy, I was refering to illegally obtaining private personal information and using that information in a political smear campaign. BTW, I have serious doubts about Ted Kennedy even being in that car when it drove off the well-known bridge.

In that context, I agree with you and DK that if the information was obtained illegally then it was inappropriate to do so.

I have not read Bennett's book either but have seen excerpts from it. I don't recall off the top of my head exactly what he said about gambling.

There's a good book called Senatorial Privilege: The Chappaquiddick Coverup that presents several theories about what happened that night, including the notion that Kennedy wasn't in the car when it went over the bridge.

Josh, interviews with the policemen involved (especially the Deputy who saw the parked car and went to investigate), the woman who lived on that road, the pilot who got an overhead view in the morning, the hotel night clerk, and other statements on a TV show (History channel as I remember) I found to be more enlightening than some book about supposed plots. They rerun it every then and now, a quire interesting program.

Hi J:

It's not a "conspiracy nut" book at all. The author interviewed all of those same people and more, and did not advocate one theory over another, though he did point out flaws in some of the theories where he thought it important to do so. It was a good read.

Hi, Josh.

The most likely speculation I've seen is that Ted and another female staffer were in the front seat, and Mary Jo was passed out in the back seat, unbenownst to either of them...
-- Dave K.

Hmmmm....I hadn't heard that one. The scenario to which J referred went roughly like this:

Senator Kennedy and Mary Jo Kopechne were in the car driving away from a party. He was driving as they passed a police car. Realizing the potential for scandal if they should be pulled over, Kennedy stopped the car down the road apiece, got out and told Mary Jo to drive on without him. She was quite drunk and drove the car off the bridge.

Josh, that is what it looked like to me. If he had just have acted shocked and not tried to build a senario and/or alibi, I think in all probability that he would have skated totally. The problem with alibis and senarios built in haste while in "panic mode" is that in many cases they are later shot full of holes when they are closely examined.

Dave, after hearing those interviews, the most likely in my mind was that when the they saw the Deputy and worried that he might want to check out the car, He got out and she drove off. After all, getting caught "necking" with a staffer would have been politically embarrassing for a maried man. How could he have known that she had taken the wrong turn and gone off that bridge when she drove off? The later actions appears to have been panic mode. If I had just learned that one of my staffers had driven off a bridge and drowned, my first implulse would not have included caling my lawyers.

is that he was indeed driving and that is reinforced by his previous driving record which is memorable for the infractions and recklessness.

Dave, it was not somebody seeing him going into a high roller area. It was 40 pages of documents what Newsweek Magazine called internal casino documents that were given to them. The management of Caersar's Atlantic City was quite ticked off.
BTW, the term "whale" that you used as a label makes me wonder if you know what that term means. He was a high roller, yes, but not even in the area of the ballpark of being rated as a whale. Whales have been commonly known to drop more than 5-10 million in one session at a table. When a whale wants to play, they'll send a plane to pick him up if he desires.

Josh,

As you may remember, Clinton got a deferrment by promising the join the ROTC. Only problem was he never did. 'Thousands' did not do that, and GW and Cheney certainly did not.

How did Dean's draft board find out about his condition if he didn't tell them? What do you think they would have done if they knew his back was good enough to spend 10 months skiing?

....to the head of the ROTC program at the University of Arkansas in which he detailed his opposition to the war:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/clinton/etc/draftletter.html

It's too long to reprint here (character limits in the "message body" field won't allow it) but makes clear that Clinton opposed the war passionately, which is a clear distinction from Quayle and Bush, both of whom expressed support for the war but managed to avoid having to actually go fight it.

Bill Clinton thanked the ROTC Colonel for 'saving' him from the draft, and apologized for hiding his beliefs while convincing the Colonel to help him. What a man!

'First, I want to thank you, not just for saving me from the draft, but for being so kind and decent to me last summer, when I was as low as I have ever been. One thing which made the bond we struck in good faith somewhat palatable to me was my high regard for you personally. In retrospect, it seems that the admiration might not have been mutual had you known a little more about me, about my political beliefs and activities. At least you might have thought me more fit for the draft than for ROTC. Let me try to explain.'

...which is where former Air National Guard pilot George W. Bush dared the Iraqi insurgents to "bring 'em on," again not having to worry about any direct consequences.

...Cheney supported the war in Vietnam and apparently found it much easier to do so from the safety of his college dorm room. If he was so supportive of the war, he could have volunteered or simply taken no action at all (e.g. not requested deferments THREE TIMES). At least Clinton had the courage to stand up for his beliefs, even if it took him some time to come around to it.

deferments did Clinton receive before he was forced to escape the draft by 'joining' ROTC. Of course, that was only a subterfuge until he could get to England. He was losing his undergraduate deferment because he was on his way to graduate school. So you see, Clinton showed no courage at all in 'standing up for his beliefs'.

You make it sound like Cheney was a notable voice in supporting the war. Where did you get that? Frankly, I never heard of Cheney during the 60's and early 70's.

By the way, you didn't 'apply' for a student deferment. You simply went back to school, and the school notified the draft board who then made no change in your student status.

either Clinton or Dean had opposed the war in dealing with the draft. However, both avoided it by lying and then going off to enjoy themselves. Neither was willing to 'pay the price' for their 'principles'. It looks like their 'opposition' had more to do with justifying their behaviour than it did with 'beliefs and philosophy'.

As I said, both Bush and Quale at least exposed themselves to some risk. Their units could have been activated. Cheney had legitimate deferments.

What really riles me up is the consistent effort by the democrats to prescribe things for the common man while exempting themselves. Teddy Kennedy, for example, loves to spend other people's money, but keeps a tight hold on his own. The Clintons sent their daughter to private school while opposing the efforts of inner city minorities to do the same.