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General discussion

David Chan. Starting new thread because my Reply

Nov 18, 2003 6:20AM PST

won't go in the original thread. Re Administrator account use.

David, I want to question some of your comments in your post.

that I am replying to. However, the forum setup doesn't allow me to see the entire post.

The first one that I will comment on is "Only when one sets up XP will one be aware of the Administrator account and also set up a user account."

I know that I am dumber than most, but I have set up XP Pro three times; original, dead HDD replacement, and once when all else failed. I HAVE NEVER had any such burst of knowledge during those processes. I never assigned an Administrator or a password [just stepped through without taking any action].

You seem to imply that the corruption of the Administrator file [account?]or whatever it is is highly likely.

I tried following all of the posts in this thread and am still confused.

Could you please provide a step by step tutorial as to how one should install XP Pro from scratch? When, in the process, and where does one install ones applications.

Now that I has apparently screwed up my installation you seem to be saying that I will have to create a user account and copy files into it. Does that mean that I then have to reinstall the App's which were in stalled when the was only one account, which you seem to say that would be called Administrator.

Sure sounds again as if XP is not as great an OP Sys as advertised if one can't even install it without total knowledge of the program before one installs it.

NEXT. If installing XP Pro as an upgrade to 98 SE what process has to be followed then??? Where do the existing files app's, profiles, etc go that are in Win98 SE???I expect to do both on different machines in the next few weeks. How does the Admin account get setup and what goes into it and how many other things have to be moved to not be as screwed up as my system apparently is at this time [of course, it is working fine].

This is so D----d frustrating. How the h--l can I honestly tell people that XP is a great improvement? This issue and the corrective action would be totally beyond their capability.

Discussion is locked

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A little more, and another question.
Nov 18, 2003 6:31AM PST

This is all done while using my 98 SE system.

I read the new thread where Non-Such applied all of your suggestions and they worked fine. I am trying to accumulate those posts into a single document to possibly apply to my XP system. My experience with XP is such that this will likely turn into a total disaster.

My statement is valid that in a few weeks I will do a clean install of XP on a computrer that I am building and to also uprade a sytem from SE to XP [Pro in both cases].

Also, do you have any idea why my response would not even go preview when replying within the original thread strted by W.Proffitt??????

I tried it with two separate instances.

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Also what do you mean by this comment by you from that thread???
Nov 18, 2003 6:40AM PST

" personally used Computer Administrator for my user account and have been doing so since XP came out."

Is your "Computer Administrator" account the same as the "Administrator" account being discussed in that thread???

Thus are you basically doing the same as me, and have never set up a "user" account in XP???

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Ray...I am busy at the moment and will reply in detail later....
Nov 18, 2003 7:23AM PST

My pet dog is sick (seizures) and I have to attend to him right now.

Sad

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Hey David, I'm a dog lover. Take care of the dog.
Nov 18, 2003 9:43AM PST

I can wait for as long as it takes.

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Ray..You read through my 5-Part answer yet??
Nov 18, 2003 9:52AM PST

My dog is in his Senior years and suffers from epilepthic seizures once in a while. 'cept since yesterday he's had 5!

He is heavily sedated now and hopefully will get back to his old self tomorrow.

Sad

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OK Ray, here goes....Part 1.
Nov 18, 2003 8:21AM PST

"but I have set up XP Pro three times; original, dead HDD replacement, and once when all else failed. I HAVE NEVER had any such burst of knowledge during those processes. I never assigned an Administrator or a password [just stepped through without taking any action]."

Answer: In this case the main Administrator account that we are talking about does exist but no password is assigned to it.

"You seem to imply that the corruption of the Administrator file [account?]or whatever it is is highly likely."

Answer: No. I did not meant it that way. What Bob and I are saying is that if this "Hidden" Administrator account has been changed to say Ray (user account) without you creating a separate Ray (user account) and it is the only active account you used all the time then one day it will get corrupt and you have no Administrator account to fall back on.
So we are cautioning everyone to check that the "Hidden" Administrator account is intact and that you use a separate user account for general use.
The Administrator account is also required when you boot into the Recovery Console for maintenance purpose.

"Could you please provide a step by step tutorial as to how one should install XP Pro from scratch?"

Answer: I have created a website detailing various methods of installing XP. Please go through the step by step instructions and let me know if you need further clarifications.
Windows XP Installation

to be continued...

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Thanx David, I'll keep that link and print it out later tonight. But a question
Nov 18, 2003 9:50AM PST

I haven't taken time to read it completely and folowing this thread. So I may ask questions here that may be explained in your procedure.

I'll still confused as to what is meant by "hidden" administator account, if there is no other account.

Also, if, on my existing XP system I create an admin account and a user account will I always have to select which one I want at each and every boot?????

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Answer...
Nov 18, 2003 10:08AM PST

"I'll still confused as to what is meant by "hidden" administator account, if there is no other account."

Answer: If you did not create a second user account during setup of XP then the Administrator account will be no longer hidden and you end up using it on a day-to-day basis. This is what Bob and I are trying to warn people not to do.
Have you done the tests I gave to determine if you are indeed using the only Administrator account?

"Also, if, on my existing XP system I create an admin account and a user account will I always have to select which one I want at each and every boot?????"

Answer: No. In this case the Admin account will remain hidden. And if you do not set a password for your user account XP will auto-log on to your user account on boot if you activate the Fast User Switching and use the Welcome Screen.

If you've set a password for your user account then you can still by-pass the selection screen by setting this option in TweakUI.

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Re: your Answer...
Nov 18, 2003 10:19PM PST

"Also, if, on my existing XP system I create an admin account and a user account will I always have to select which one I want at each and every boot?????"

Answer: No. In this case the Admin account will remain hidden. And if you do not set a password for your user account XP will auto-log on to your user account on boot if you activate the Fast User Switching and use the Welcome Screen.

I guess that I can find out how to activate Fast User Switching, but have no idea what you mean by "USING" the welcome screen. I never watched my system boot up. I simply turn the power on the UPS and come back later and my desktop is there. I know that there is no screen that I use during the booting. A screen may show momentarily but nothing that requires my attention.

Sounds like another of XP's user friendliness. LOL

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David, that link is disappointing with regard to tthe subject of this thread.
Nov 18, 2003 1:29PM PST

If you will read the text for a clean installation of XP, you should notice that it DOES NOT, in any way shape or form, imply any special emphasis of setting up administrator and users.

I hope that you can get to the author and ask him/her to make a special note as to the importance of the step, give the reasons and the penalties for not doing it and to make it very clear that it applies to people [such as me] whose computer will never be used by any other person.

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Also when if one actually sets up the administrator account and one
Nov 18, 2003 1:35PM PST

user account, is the administrator account still a hidden account?? Difficult to understand this without doing it, because I don't know what the steps for setting up the admintrator account consist of.

The link certainly didn't explain it.

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David, [APOLOGY] I just re-read the post that this is a sub link to
Nov 18, 2003 2:31PM PST

and just realized that you said that the link was to an article at YOUR website. Went back to the site and article and noticed the DC. My comment was not meant to be derogatory, just to show that the subject is NOT stressed in any book that I have ever looked at. Had I remembered that it was your text, I either would make no comment or certainly one that doesn't look like strong criticism.

Since the author is you, please don't take the bit about asking the author [him/her] as an intentional dig.

I'm totally embarrassed and trying to apologize.

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Re:David, [APOLOGY] I just re-read the post that this is a sub link to
Nov 18, 2003 7:50PM PST

Ray,

Thank you for pointing this out.
I will update the webpage to incorporate this important issue of Admin & User account.

Keep that link and in a couple of days check back and it will be updated.

Thanks for drawing that to my attention.

Happy

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Part 2.
Nov 18, 2003 8:28AM PST

"When, in the process, and where does one install ones applications."

Answer: After you have D/L and installed SP1 & ALL Critical/Security Updates then only is it safe to install your other software like Antivirus, Ad-Aware, SpyBot, MS Office, Photoshop etc.

"Now that I has apparently screwed up my installation you seem to be saying that I will have to create a user account and copy files into it. Does that mean that I then have to reinstall the App's which were in stalled when the was only one account, which you seem to say that would be called Administrator."

Answer: You have not ascertained that this is so. In your case did you recall setting you a user account called Ray? You can determine this quite easily with XP Pro using these methods:

1. Double-click My Computer. Do you see on the top section the following Folders?
Shared Documents
Administrator's Document
Ray's Documents

2. Install TweakUI. Start TweakUI and click the heading Logon. Under Settings is there an item Show "Administrator" on Welcome screen?

3. Start | Logoff. On the Welcome screen press Ctrl+Alt+Delete twice. In the Logon screen enter Administrator and if you didn't have any password do not enter anything and just hit OK.
If the Administrator account exists XP will boot into a new Desktop with no desktop icons except the Recycle Bin and the wallpaper is the default "Bliss" wallpaper.

to be continued...

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Re:Part 3.
Nov 18, 2003 8:40AM PST

"Sure sounds again as if XP is not as great an OP Sys as advertised if one can't even install it without total knowledge of the program before one installs it."

Answer: Debatable. Usually if you are not in a hurry you will see all these steps during the setup of XP. If you'll recall at the final stages of the installation when XP boot into the Desktop for the first time with the "Wonderful" music you are prompted to set up the Administrator and password as well as there are 5~6 text boxes for you to create several User Accounts. I don't understand why many have missed this crucial step?

"If installing XP Pro as an upgrade to 98 SE what process has to be followed then???"

Answer: See my first link for Step by Step instructions on Upgrade installation of XP.

"Where do the existing files app's, profiles, etc go that are in Win98 SE???"

Answer: In an Upgrade installation of XP over Win98 the Win98 System Files are backed up so that there is an uninstall XP listed in Add or Remove Programs. This allows you to uninstall XP and restore back to Win98. But it also means that XP will be using FAT32 instead of NTFS.

"I expect to do both on different machines in the next few weeks. How does the Admin account get setup and what goes into it and how many other things have to be moved to not be as screwed up as my system apparently is at this time [of course, it is working fine]."

Answer: I think this has already been covered? But if you are not clear let me know.

to be continued...

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Re:Re:Part 3.
Nov 18, 2003 8:47AM PST

"How the h--l can I honestly tell people that XP is a great improvement? This issue and the corrective action would be totally beyond their capability."

Answer: Honestly XP is the best Windows todate! Trust me! But seriously once you have set up XP the correct way by deligently following all the prompts it's a truly user friendly OS. In fact if you have high speed internet it even goes through the setup of yout Network and automatically connects you to the Internet and activate your license within a few seconds!

"Also, do you have any idea why my response would not even go preview when replying within the original thread strted by W.Proffitt??????"

Answer: This stupid new Forum Software limits the post to a certain lenght. So if you try to post a rather long reply like what I am doing if the length exceed the limit it will not preview!
That is why I have to break up my reply to you in so many parts!
I have posted muy complaints several times in the Forum Feedback that this is ridiculus for a Technical/Help Forum when some members like you asks for Step By Step instructions.

to be continued...

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Re:Re:Re:Part 5.
Nov 18, 2003 8:55AM PST

" personally used Computer Administrator for my user account and have been doing so since XP came out."

Answer: What I meant was that I have the Administrator account safely hidden away for a rainy day.
I have set up a user account called David and rather than give it a Limited User status I have made it a Computer Administrator.
In a multi-user shared PC you will want to password protect all your users and also assigned some as Limited Users.

"Is your "Computer Administrator" account the same as the "Administrator" account being discussed in that thread???"

Answer: No. I have to practice what I preached. As explained above I left the Administrator account hidden and set up a user account with Computer Administrator privileges.

"Thus are you basically doing the same as me, and have never set up a "user" account in XP???"

Answer: No.

I guess that answered all your questions Ray?

Let me know if you still have any.

Cheers.

Happy

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I read absolutely literally, thus I do not fully understand yet
Nov 18, 2003 10:30AM PST

Does your Computer Administrator account have every single capability that the "hidden" Administrator account has???? If not, why not???????


I will have to re-read all of this to fully understand why the hidden administrator would be so critical. Unless I missed something, it seems to be able to get to the recovery console, something that I have no idea how to use, so why should one care??? It is anothewr MS tool like SFC. If one does not have any basis to decide what version of a file would be the correct one, it becomes rather useless for determining correctness of files. I tried it a number of times and when I selected to replace an older date file with a two year newer one things went to hell. Without, in depth knowledge for the recovery console, how would one have any idea what commands to type?
Microsoft engineers sill have not fgured out that the largest number of computer buyers want to use them without having to understand anything about how they work. BTW, very few Engineers/software designer have this deign ability, basically because they forget that they are to design for someone without knowledge, but they design for someone with knowledge at their same level.

I guess that I am just railing because this fabulous XP is just another PITA.

Remember, a few weeks ago I decided to remove the older restore points and immediately make a new restore point. Sure as heck, XP died. Haven't had any thing like this with 98 SE.

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Re:I read absolutely literally, thus I do not fully understand yet
Nov 18, 2003 11:02AM PST

"Does your Computer Administrator account have every single capability that the "hidden" Administrator account has???? If not, why not???????"

Answer: No. A Computer Administrator has all the authority of the "hidden" Administrator except the authority to log onto the Recovery Console which requires you to sign on as Administrator.

The Recovery Console is a very powerful tool, even more so than System Restore or System File Checker.
You can use it to fixboot, bootconfig, fixmbr, partition & format, delete files and repair your OS system files.
The Recovery Console is the last line of defence before you have to reinstall XP!

Review these links:

Windows XP Recovery Console
Windows XP Crashed? Here's Help
Fixing The Registry

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I've been around these forums a long time and am aware that the
Nov 18, 2003 10:05AM PST

new forums have many limitations, and I am willing to put with them even if I didn't know that they existed until I hit one . Thus, I'll stick aound and put up with the problems.

It's people such as you that I hope don't leave in despair. I find that your responses in all of the forums are superior.

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To your first answer. Microsoft did not IN ANY WAY make it known
Nov 18, 2003 9:56AM PST

that this was a critical step, that some day the setup may get corrupted and one couldn't get to the recovery console or whatever!!!! Since I am the only person that will ever use the computer, why would I even think about these steps????

How many XP users have enough knowledge to have the slightest idea how to use the recovery console????????

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That is correct Ray...
Nov 18, 2003 10:21AM PST

Perhaps Microsoft is unaware of this implication too!

But this situation has been around since the NT/W2K OS were released. Except these OSes were normally used in the Corporate environment and usually set up by the System Administrator or the IT staff.

With NT & W2K the first set up uses the Administrator account. Then the Sys Admin or IT staff will create other User account/s and assigned them as Power Users or Users with very limited priviliges.

Unfortunately XP uses the same security set up and M$ obmitted to make this known to the average users who are migrating from Win98/ME which does not require such procedures. M$ could have easily added into the setup steps to make it mandatory for a separate user account to be set up and that would have solved this problem.

Thus this problem has now come to light when many users are blissfully unaware and only use the Administrator account without creating a separate user account.

I guess the only solution in such situations is to format and reinstall!

Hope this clears thing up for your inquiring mind.

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Not only that. MS and many posts in these forums said that
Nov 18, 2003 10:35AM PST

installation of XP was so easy that one just starts the process and then sits back while the installation program does everything for you.

Don't you think that it would be nice if MS would revise their installtion process to make these steps madatory.

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But that is actually quite true...
Nov 18, 2003 11:21AM PST

On a fully XP compatible H/W one can basically sit back and relax while XP sets itself up practically unattended and only step in at the final stage to create the user accounts! This is the final step that M$ made a mistake in not making it mandatory to create at least one user account.

The only additional input is when you want to create additional partitions on your HDD during the setup. But this is optional.

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David, please don't take any of my comments as a personal attack
Nov 18, 2003 1:44PM PST

on you. I consider you to be one of the premier Mods/posters.

I am simply so damned frustrated to have to look forward to trying to redo my set up and transfer files and get my desktop the way it was that I am boiling over at the MS claim that this is a great Op Sys.

MS still has no idea how to develop user friendly systems. Some of their dialog boxes are actually counter productive [in any of their Op Sys'/ applications].

I'll bet the dialog boxes for setting up an administrator have ambiguities in them that could confuse the non computer literate turkeys such as this writer.

I guess that I'll find out when I do a clean install in a few weeks on a new computer. GRRRRRRRR

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Heh! Ray...
Nov 18, 2003 7:36PM PST

Don't worry about it...
That webpage was written early last year when I was experimenting with XP set up and documented the step by step of how I successfully set up XP using various methods.
At that time the significance of the Admin and user accounts was not obvious as I was doing it right and had always set up the user account separate from the Admin.

I gave that link to demonstrate how to install XP the proper way.

I can see now that I will have to modify the text to include a section relating to the importance of setting up user accounts.

But I hope that you & others will find the step by step instructions on XP installation informative.

Happy

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(NT) Heh! Ray...the website is updated already! Thanks.
Nov 18, 2003 10:14PM PST

Just note that there are numerous useful links in the page too.

Appreciate your bring this to my attention.
I was getting behind on updating it.

Ther's more work to be done and will spend some time on it soon.

Happy

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Re:(NT) Heh! Ray...the website is updated already! Thanks.
Nov 18, 2003 10:41PM PST

I just read it, thank YOU. Now when I understand the "welcome" screen I will be able to convince the people that I know what I am doing when I do the XP install and the upgrade. LOL

I do tell people about these forums and the great help here, but most of them won't even use Windows Update. This is why I strongly feel that XP has done absolutely nothing to help this type of user any more than 98 SE. I have yet to see a reason to tell this type of user to upgrade to XP.

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For such users you can...
Nov 18, 2003 11:05PM PST

configure XP to auto-update all critical updates when they are online so they don't have to be bothered. LOL!

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Re:Re:(NT) Heh! Ray...the website is updated already! Thanks.
Nov 18, 2003 11:49PM PST

What's XP..is that anything like linux? LOL