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Da nice Christian white-folk down da block (RANT)

by crowsfoot / February 23, 2005 12:58 PM PST

are having another covered-dish s

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So what you're saying is ...
by Evie / February 23, 2005 10:00 PM PST

... they didn't invite you again this time, and that BBQ sure smelled good from downwind! I feel sorry for you Bob to have such a hole in your life that you need to ridicule the beliefs of others to feel better. I hope you find what you're looking for some day, in fact, if you don't mind too much, I'll pray for that.

Evie Happy

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For the most part, I give pretty good silent suffering.
by crowsfoot / February 23, 2005 10:10 PM PST

It ain't jealousy, Evie. And I usually don't want to do anything to take away crutches.

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Have you actually talked to them yet to find out what they
by Kiddpeat / February 23, 2005 10:30 PM PST

believe and why? I haven't heard the 'crutch' phrase in 40 years. That's getting kind of old isn't it? Wink

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Give him a break, KP...
by Evie / February 23, 2005 10:35 PM PST

... I'm guessing we all have our "crutches" Wink

Evie Happy

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We need our doubts.
by crowsfoot / February 23, 2005 11:17 PM PST

They're more valuable to us than assurances, magical or otherwise.

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Bob, refresh my memory, if I may ask,
by MarciaB / February 23, 2005 11:24 PM PST

as to why this occasional(*) gathering at your neighbor's place has you so upset / bent out of shape / hornswaggled / or whatever.

(*)It seems that it was several months ago that you first brought this up ("first" meaning what I can remember in the 4+ years I have been around SE).


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It's not these particular neighbors so much.
by crowsfoot / February 24, 2005 12:01 AM PST

(although there IS the whole guns connection down thar) It's the up to my ears in rock-solid surety and the willing setting aside of all doubt and guilt that gets me. Not a good decision making atmosphere, IMHO.

Got'a go to work now. Thanks for the reply, MarciaB.

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If you've never talked to them ...
by Evie / February 24, 2005 12:11 AM PST

... how do you know what goes on over down thar??

Evie Happy

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(NT) (NT) Well, I've talked to you. ;-) Over & out till 7:00.
by crowsfoot / February 24, 2005 12:33 AM PST
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How you can draw conclusions about your neighbors ...
by Evie / February 24, 2005 1:06 AM PST

... based on anything I've said here is beyond me Bob. I've never been to an "all white Christian with guns and ammo lying around" hoe down.

Evie Happy

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:-) Me either.
by crowsfoot / February 26, 2005 3:52 PM PST
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I think I hear you, Bob
by Angeline Booher / February 23, 2005 11:50 PM PST

Personally, I'm not sure which is harder - being a parent or being a Christian..

My Irish gggrandfather told the kids that if they could be really good for a week, on the next morning when they opened the door they would see a leprechaun sitting there. My Mom spent many a week trying to be really good. When she sought explanations from her gfather why one of the little people had not appeared, he would have her think back. Sure- she hadn't hit a brother, had obeyed her parents. But had she had unkind thoughts toward a brother, or wished her parents wouldn't be so strict- those sorts of things. Of course she had, as did we all.

That's one reason it is so hard to be a Christian. Try as we may, being Christ-like is a tough road to hoe.

Add to that the differences between Christian congregations, and which battles they pick to fight. Some churches are considered to be liberal, some conservative, with ultras for both. IMO, folks can choose in which venues they feel suits their views, or captures them.

My father-in-law was a minister in a main-stream church. Believe me, it is not an easy job to shepherd a flock.

My point is that, IMO, those who hold to the Christian faith can be judged, not only by their words, but by their actions. I think that sometimes the most basic teachings of Christ go down the tubes, such as the "Do unto others". "By their fruits ye shall know them" also comes to mind.

I suspect that the same holds true for other main-stream religions.


click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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Life is short and full of pain. Dust you were...
by crowsfoot / February 24, 2005 12:30 AM PST

So what's important? Justifying your new Norge? Or the fact that half the worlds people live on two dollars a day? Are we team, or are we individuals seeking advantage and mollification?

I probably wouldn't have been an easy parent. What do you think? Wink

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Easy answer there !
by Angeline Booher / February 24, 2005 1:38 AM PST

For as long as I have "known" you over several years, what I have seen (read) tells me that you would be a great parent!

You have an inquiring mind, wide interests - good qualities to pass on to young 'ns.

Though set in your ways (like me !) you not only listen to others, but hear them.

As to the suffering around the world, you care. IMO, there are some things we can do to help alleviate it somewhat, but it has long been with us, and will continue to be so. Some of it comes from ignorance, tribal wars, and over-population, but mostly, IMO, has been because of their despot and dictator "leadership". Why does a merciful God permit this? Maybe it is to spur us to do more, or remind us that we are our brother's keeper. On the flip side, there are people who spend their lives in the midst of the suffering, for which a goodly number have lost their lives, so it has not been ignored. Then, too, some live in places that cannot offer much to their economies except tourism.

Or maybe to teach the more fortunate a lesson. Those living on $2 a day are working for that $2.

I don't recall the details, but there was a pygmy tribe that was non-warring, and had no crime. I could be mistaken, but it seems they lost their innocence when "civilization" caught up with them. As Robert Ruark wrote, when something is taken away, it must be replaced with something of value.

I was a far from "easy" parent. Happy


click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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by Paul C / February 24, 2005 9:18 AM PST
In reply to: Easy answer there !
I was a far from "easy" parent.

I bet you weren't, Angeline; I also bet that your children have made you proud with their accomplishments.

I know that my wife and I raised our kids' hackles on numerous occasions. But we have a son who's a good husband and dad and who has a promising career, and a daughter who's poised to graduate at least with high honors (the software won't let me use the Latin; it thinks the word between "Summa" and "Laude" is obscene!) this spring and who will do real well herself.

That's when all the tears and sweat are repaid, IMO.
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Thanks, Angeline.
by crowsfoot / February 24, 2005 11:30 AM PST
In reply to: Easy answer there !

I hope your right. >>>listen to others>>>

PBS had a wonderful series on the Yanomami Indians of Southern Venezuela and Northern Brazil. What's the likelihood of their beliefs being given much credence, I wonder? Even though 10 or 20 or 50 thousand years in the making.

Like I said, I feel up to me eyeballs in one-way Christianity. It's not like I don't believe anything. And I didn't choose my beliefs. Anyway, it's awfully nice to be at least partially affirmed in a speculative way by a fine person like you.

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I just don't get all the hatred ...
by Evie / February 27, 2005 6:44 AM PST
In reply to: Thanks, Angeline.

... aimed at your neighbors. You seem to be the "one-way" thinker here assuming what their beliefs must be. If they aren't shooting guns in your direction or otherwise generally disturbing the peace, what's your beef with them? That they are white and have no black friends? Do they have lots of faith bumper stickers on their pickups or something so that you know their denomination?

I guess what I'm saying is that if it was a philosophical discussion of faith, team vs. individual, futility of life and all that, it makes no sense to me to couch it in an offensive, stereotyping, screed that brimmed with disdain to say the least.

Evie Happy

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If you see it as hatred, you DON'T get it.
by crowsfoot / February 27, 2005 7:14 AM PST

Disdain? Maybe. But not for the people. More for the taking of the easy way and encouraging others to do the same.

What I feel like I haven't done very well, is explain why I believe religion promotes bad behavior, and bad decisions. THAT'S what I "hate" and that's why the rancor. It has to do with focus and perspective and things missed.

Maybe it'll wait till next years rant?

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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here ...
by Evie / February 27, 2005 8:30 AM PST

... I don't see religion as "taking of the easy way", anyone that has made an honest effort to follow the teachings of any mainstream religion would beg to differ. It isn't easy that's for sure. As for religion promoting bad behavior and bad decisions, again, I would say it is largely the opposite. Show me a human secularist gathering and I would bet there are far more examples of bad behavior and bad decisions.

Evie Happy

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I'm getting pretty used to that.
by crowsfoot / February 27, 2005 12:12 PM PST

You might get a chuckle, but I do kind'a take pride that I don't demand agreement. Just honesty.

You don't think religion is taking of the easy way? I can't imagine trying to raise a kid without it. Sure, it's the easy way. Not dealing with death is one big example.

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No, I don't think religion is taking the easy way at all ...
by Evie / February 27, 2005 8:13 PM PST

... witness the myriad "a la carte" religious folks that claim to follow the teachings of one church or another but only follow those that are personally comfortable for them in the end. It is very hard to be a good Jew, Catholic, Muslim, etc. It seems laziest of all to just not even try IMO. Death? Yeah, it might be easier to tell a child that Grandpa is in Heaven now rather than whatever atheists tell their kids. A small trade off IMO. I'm still not getting where religion encourages bad behavior and bad decisions. It is quite the contrary. Those that make bad decisions and engage in bad behavior are those that are turning their backs on the teachings of every major religion that I am aware.

Evie Happy

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Without God, we're whoever we want to be, and no one else
by Kiddpeat / February 24, 2005 9:55 AM PST

has any basis other than force or persuasion to say that we shouldn't be. We do what we want, and force/persuasion simply modifies what we want. It's all a matter of preference. We do what we prefer to do.

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I understand that the BTK killer is a pillar of his church
by Ziks511 / February 27, 2005 9:04 AM PST

and a devout Christian. I hope he's not what God wants him to be. Apparently though he was unpersuaded by one or two of the church's teachings.

Rob Boyter

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and that is related to my post because.....
by Kiddpeat / February 27, 2005 12:04 PM PST

It should not be surprising to find sinners in church. That's what it's there for. Some people have a very good facade, especially those who are killing people. Only God knows for sure what's in your heart as an example. Christians can only base their views of fellow church members based on their facade. Jesus said there would be wolves among the sheep. This was apparently one of them.

What church did John Wayne Gacey or Jeffrey Dahmer go to? I don't recall one being mentioned. Does that mean people who don't go to church are responsible for what those two did?

Again. What's your point?

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My point is you can pontificate all you want on religion
by Ziks511 / February 27, 2005 1:02 PM PST

and insist that only good church goers are to be trusted or are the ones who count, but you can't even trust them. You'd be better off trusting a good-hearted atheist than putting your trust in a lip-service Christian like this creep. And to describe this guy as a sinner is like calling a hurricane a bit of a thunderstorm. Surely a sinner is the guy who cheats on his wife, takes the Lord's name in vain, breaks wind in a crowded elevator. This guy is so far beyond a sinner you can't even see him from there.

Rob Boyter

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People are people
by Diana Forum moderator / February 27, 2005 8:27 PM PST

Whether they are in church or in the hood. You will have saints and sinners, honest people and flim-flam artists, people who couldn't hurt anyone on purpose and people that kill people, people that let others go with love and control-freaks.

Church is no different than the local country club for a lot of people. A place to make contacts and look good.

I have met some of the most beautiful people I have ever known and some of the worse bigots I never want to see again in church and the local political party.

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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What I don't get ...
by Evie / February 27, 2005 9:51 PM PST
In reply to: People are people

... is how those that paint with broad stereotypic brushes about Christians (not you Diana) can decry bigotry so loudly while simultaneously expressing it so blatantly.

Evie Happy

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(NT) (NT) You're sure clinging to the idea that I HATE Christians
by crowsfoot / February 27, 2005 11:18 PM PST
In reply to: What I don't get ...
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I am commenting on ...
by Evie / February 27, 2005 11:37 PM PST

... how I perceive your "rant" Bob. You are not alone in not seeing the problem with your own post. What does the race or religion of your neighbors have to do with your own struggles about answering the mysteries of life? I am curious, for example, why black Christians are spared from your public expressions of disdain. Why does it bother you so that someone else is content that their lives are not futile and chooses to socialize on the rare occasions with others that share that belief? Unless they are harrassing you, it's pretty much none of your business, really, and you are certainly not expressing much in the way of tolerance by sharing your assumptions of what they might believe.

I'm totally lost at your logic about beliefs as well. You say we don't choose our beliefs, only what we say our beliefs are? Are belief systems inate? I don't think so, they can be ingrained, but they are not inate. If they were, then nobody would ever be able to change their beliefs. On this point you lose me entirely.

Evie Happy

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by crowsfoot / February 28, 2005 12:30 AM PST
In reply to: I am commenting on ...

On black Christians: 1) I'm white. I feel responsible for the actions of whites. 2) The main motivating idea I hear from my black Christian friends on their religious practice is Praise. I interpret this to mean setting one's self, and one's impulse to control, a step lower. This is a deferent proposition form my "bigoted" ideas about the motivations of many white congregations. 3) YOU are assuming I let blacks off the hook, here. Not true at all.

I don't believe life is futile. Only the seeking of advantage over others.

My main problem is that, to some extent or other, at some level in their gut, EVERYBODY is dissatisfied with the basic nature of human existence. The choice is whether to lie about it (for kindness' sake, I suppose) or to gut it out to and allow everybody else to do the same. I mean: life after death? I mean: "vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord." ? Very nice for others to believe, regardless of whether or not you yourself feel can handle it. It's compromise. It's the slippery-slope. For the very best of motivations, perhaps. The forgiveness thing offers a chance to restart AFTER incidents of unforgivable guilt. That's a good thing,,, but the price? Too high for me.

>>>your own struggles about answering the mysteries of life>>>

As a member of the animal kingdom I don't have any right to demand the answers. There's only the seeking, for it's own sake.

The hard part of claiming to be religious is who to let in and how far.

Again, I don't HATE Christians or anybody else. Bigotry is a strong word, Evie. I expect accuracy from you in your choice of words.

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