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General discussion

Constitutional Legal Scholars On the Unconstitutionality of

May 18, 2006 8:54PM PDT

the NSA's wiretapping

ON NSA SPYING: A LETTER TO CONGRESS
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18650

By Beth Nolan, Curtis Bradley, David Cole, Geoffrey Stone, Harold Hongju Koh, Kathleen M. Sullivan, Laurence H. Tribe, Martin Lederman, Philip B. Heymann, Richard Epstein, Ronald Dworkin, Walter Dellinger, William S. Sessions, William Van Alstyne

Dear Members of Congress:

We are scholars of constitutional law and former government officials. We write in our individual capacities as citizens concerned by the Bush administration's National Security Agency domestic spying program, as reported in The New York Times, and in particular to respond to the Justice Department's December 22, 2005, letter to the majority and minority leaders of the House and Senate Intelligence Committees setting forth the administration's defense of the program.[1] Although the program's secrecy prevents us from being privy to all of its details, the Justice Department's defense of what it concedes was secret and warrantless electronic surveillance of persons within the United States fails to identify any plausible legal authority for such surveillance. Accordingly the program appears on its face to violate existing law.

The basic legal question here is not new. In 1978, after an extensive investigation of the privacy violations associated with foreign intelligence surveillance programs, Congress and the President enacted the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). Pub. L. 95-511, 92 Stat. 1783. FISA comprehensively regulates electronic surveillance within the United States, striking a careful balance between protecting civil liberties and preserving the "vitally important government purpose" of obtaining valuable intelligence in order to safeguard national security. S. Rep. No. 95-604, pt. 1, at 9 (1977).

With minor exceptions, FISA authorizes electronic surveillance only upon certain specified showings, and only if approved by a court. The statute specifically allows for warrantless wartime domestic electronic surveillance?but only for the first fifteen days of a war. 50 U.S.C.

Discussion is locked

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In the matter of that last sentence. I really don't think
May 19, 2006 4:54PM PDT

that's true (that you won't like it). I do find this an enormously stimulating environment, and I do enjoy examining the assumptions here, and examining my own assumptions, and trying to understand why I'm on the wrong side of every issue here. I also enjoy trying to formulate my thoughts to my own satisfaction if not to yours. Therefore this is an extraordinary learning environment, and so long as I can keep ego out of it (wanting to convince somebody, anybody of something) and just keep writing I get better and better at saying what I mean and at formulating long arguments. I've still got a lot of learning to do, but it's like a writers workshop here in a "take no prisoners" sort of way. I've started the book, and I'm feeling kind of high because I've got two big subjects the history of Physics and particularly its development in the twentieth Century, and a biography of Nathan Isgur which are two strands that I plan to tackle in parallel moving back and forth between the two. It has the wonderful benefit of making use of my expensive education and doing something worthwhile. The story is great and learning about Physics in detail is fascinating.

Nathan was a student of Richard Feynman at CalTech, and occasionally went camping with him and Feynman's family and sometimes others including other physicists. On one of these trips at a gas stop Feynman and Nathan were debating the mechanism that causes the gas pump to shut off automatically when the tank gets full. Each of them had their own theory and didn't agree with the other's idea. So they asked the gas jockey. The guy in the greasy red baseball cap looked at them like they were children and said "Sure I can tell you how it works. You lock it on fill and as soon as the tank gets full it shuts off." He then walked away shaking his head at how stupid some people can be.

There are now several hundred, if no several thousand people who have heard that story. Its a story of perspective I guess, some people are satisfied with a less detailed understanding of how things work than others.

Thanks for helping me hone my chops everyone, and thanks for helping me get out of a big hole of depression caused by what is effectively the development of a disability that interferes with conventional work by preventing me from having a regular sleeping pattern along with the Sleep Apnea. Sorry if I'm a bear when I haven't had enough sleep. It's not personal. My animus toward George Bush is as personal as a dislike of someone I have never met but whose politics and personality I really despise, but my feelings here are mostly focussed on expressing myself.

All the best

Rob

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Pull your money out of the US now
May 19, 2006 9:52PM PDT

Buy yourself an air conditioner. Summer is approaching.

Not ONE direct response to even ONE premise put forth by Hinderaker. Typical.

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We don't throw away the newborns
May 19, 2006 9:44PM PDT

What a total horse's behind statement that is, and you know it.

Hope you're warmed up. Won't be waiting for any books from you.

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Can you ikmagine what taht would be like?
May 19, 2006 10:02PM PDT
Won't be waiting for any books from you.

Imagine the reviews! Oh please; it would be sooo funny!
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It may be
May 19, 2006 10:07PM PDT

the only book worse to read than "Earth in the Balance"

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BTW, why don't the Moderators moderate...
May 19, 2006 10:22PM PDT

This? Just the latest in a long string of offenses.

if George Bush's woodchuck's bum of a mouth wasn't a give away...

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Because,
May 19, 2006 10:32PM PDT

special rules for special people

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Or
May 19, 2006 11:09PM PDT
Part of the problem you guys have is that this is just a place where I warm up my chops. Musicians call it woodshedding, playing without an audience to improve your control, your inventiveness, your agility. I enjoy writing here not because there's anyone to persuade (I got over that really fast) but because you inspire me with your True Believerism, your incontrovertability, your immuneness to Beauty Truth, or a cogent argument. And so having warmed up, I move on to real writing, which seems to be going very well thank you. I promise you all a mention in my book, I just don't promise you will like it.

and

Thanks for helping me hone my chops everyone, and thanks for helping me get out of a big hole of depression caused by what is effectively the development of a disability that interferes with conventional work by preventing me from having a regular sleeping pattern along with the Sleep Apnea. Sorry if I'm a bear when I haven't had enough sleep. It's not personal....

All the best


Kinda reminds me of someone who is about to screw you thanking you first.

We're just a great warmup for the "real thing" ... well at least he said "thank you!" ... and never to go unmentioned the various maladies that can be blamed for whatever is offensive about the rant du jour.

Evie Happy
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So, do you now oppose abortion?
May 20, 2006 4:32PM PDT

That would be news, but I'll bet the answer is no.

In a liberal society that tosses 'fetuses' into the garbage, why would you expect newborns to fare a lot better? There's not much difference between the two, and conservatives don't usually run the hospitals that care for babies.

Let me give you a bit of a clue. Our daughter was in the hospital several times when she was quite young. On one of those occasions, there was a call to take care of a black mother about to give birth. She had not seen a doctor at all during her pregnancy, so this was the first doctor to see her. She got whoever was available at the time. The baby was probably addicted to drugs, and probably had been exposed to a few diseases. That wasn't because the mother could not afford health care. All she had to do was make the effort.

Any questions?

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HEY, ALL RIGHT WING MOONBATS !!!!!
May 19, 2006 9:42AM PDT

Rob has declared it unconstitutional, leave it alone now

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Pay attention, DM...
May 19, 2006 11:01AM PDT

Right wing = WINGNUTS

Left WIng = MOONBATS

Didn't you read the Federalist Papers?

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Many times
May 19, 2006 11:06AM PDT

haven't found moonbats or wingnuts in it. Is it in t0Go's version?

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Yes, I have a deep faith in my government
May 20, 2006 1:51AM PDT

And in my lifetime have found no reason to destroy it. It works beautifully with its checks and balances. When things have gone askew, corrections are made through at least one of the branches.

You see, the president is only one branch of our government. Though he does have executive powers and can claim executive privilege, it is all done in the light of day. A president is sitting in the Oval Office by the will of the electorate.

I can recall only one true abuse of presidential power in my time.

Sure, some others on the Hill and on the staffs did, but it did not go forever ignored.

We now know of secret actions taken during WWII. It seemed the thing to do at the time. The press sometimes knew, but kept silent. It was a world war.

Perhaps the worse action against our citizens ever taken was to the Japanese ones. Yet German prisoners of war could work on farms. It seemed the thing to do at the time. Our Consitution and Bill of Rights were not shredded then, but was a learning experience.

You admitted to a pre-conceived opinion of our sitting president from past performance, and, IMO, that colored your take any future performance, so he will always meet your expectations.

My presidents came with criticisms .... "just a shoe saleman"... only a peanut farmer"..... "a general will turn us into a military government"..."a Catholic will turn us over to Rome".... "He had too many head injuries paying football"..... "That Checkers speech!".... etc.

So I don't have to like a president. In these days of deep political division in our country, I realize that they play to their bases. (As does Congress.) IMO, the day is long gone when any boy could be president. It takes too much money, demands too much scrutiny and expectations of purity, and exposes the family to ridicule.

Again, a president is not the government. If he proposes an action, the Congress can either deny or embrace it. We have seen lately that even the majority party in power does not always embrace the proposals, and can be the severeist critics.

That's why I don't personally care for terms like "Georgie Porgie", or "Ray-Gun", or others, whether or not I liked the presidents that are the objects of them.

I respect the Office as much as I respect our flag. I believe that differences of opinion can be expressed without slurs. I believe that I can say I did not/do not support the tax cut, that I am concerned about the burden on my grandchildren for the huge burden they will face from the borrowing, and more. My goals are not always the same as those of the sitting administrations. But those are my opinions, and I respect those who take the opposite view.

That is, if they are presented in a respectful manner.

Yours have continued to grow more venomous. Cool it, please!

Angeline
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email
semods4@yahoo.com

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(NT) (NT) I like your way with words, Angeline. Amen! :)
May 20, 2006 2:36AM PDT
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(NT) (NT) here here ty
May 20, 2006 2:58AM PDT