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General discussion

Considering making the switch...

Mar 22, 2007 2:11AM PDT

As I write this, my 3-year old HP is on its way back to HP for attempted repair, which, if unsuccessful, will be my 3rd PC that has lasted only this long before becoming unstable in one way or another and needing replacement...so I'm finally considering making the switch, which I've always resisted before mainly due to higher price for comparable system specs. I've read much about benefits of going with an iMac in terms of ease of use of OS, space-saving design, seen great reviews of iLife software, etc. Just wondering from Mac users (especially former PC users) that have done so what experience they have had in terms of Apple support vs. PC support, how long their Macs have lasted them, ability to upgrade, etc. I am not a high-powered computer user, main uses will be e-mail, Web surfing, pretty basic stuff w/digital photos, music and videos (not a PhotoShop user). Any thoughts appreciated.

Discussion is locked

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3 years is normal.
Mar 22, 2007 2:16AM PDT

PCs are not appliances that run without attention for years at a time. So a repair or maintenance every year is normal. I'm finding laptop owners not knowing that a yearly dusting of the heatsinks and vents is required. They treat these devices like an appliance which you don't worry about till it breaks.

Has anyone talked to you about this?

Moving to a Mac is nice but you can't escape the maintenance.

Bob

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Re: maintenance
Mar 22, 2007 2:58AM PDT

Thanks...maybe I should rephrase the question, I could live with maintenance and a functioning computer but my experiences have been more that after 3 years the computer performance degrades so much, even after repeated and frustrating calls to tech support and following all suggestions they could give me to improve performance, that its no longer usable...so I guess what I'm wondering is assuming some necessary maintenance have people found Macs to be longer lasting?

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I think the Mac is a fine move. Just look at what...
Mar 22, 2007 3:09AM PDT

Let's look at what we need to arm our Windows OS with to survive. We'll need antivirus, firewall, antispyware, another browser, turn off our email preview and scan weekly or daily. Then Microsoft needs to add more code to be sure we're 'legit'. Pile all this up and it's quite a load for any owner.

You're right that most won't do this or reload the OS if it reaches the point they can't figure out what's wrong.

I've seen Macs run for years without all that. Still need to dust them out and check the fans (if they have fans.)

Bob

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"After 3 years"... when you notice things
Mar 22, 2007 10:02AM PDT

slowing down can - in my experience - typically be attributed to 1 thing: File fragmentation. Along with that can travel some companion issues like running low on hard drive space or newly added applications which are designed for more current or robust hardware, but that time-frame and symptom got my attention.

In the Windows environment, file fragmentation is a fact of life - which means running the defragger every 3-6 months is probably a good idea. This is a normal maintenance item - as mentioned in an earlier post - that needs to happen... like adding gas to your car's gas tank or changing the oil regularly. Besides defragmenting the files, the defrag application/utility also "optimizes" the system... so all the system files are where they are best used, all the fonts are together, all the applications are together and all the documents are together on the hard drive. It all looks the same to the person in front of the monitor, but under the hood, the location of the files on the hard drive makes a difference.

The Apple Macintosh OSX environment really does not run into this type of file defrag issue or system file location issue. When various updates happen (software updates from Apple or any other application install using the installer), the last step is the system is optimized. As for file defragmentation, the operating system works to take care of that as a normal course of it's day while the machine is on. There are very few people in the OSX environment who need to purchase a defrag utility (perhaps some high-end video editing contiguous file requirement).

If the hard drive that Windows machine of yours has not been defragmented:

1) Do a back up. Make sure you can use the back up and actually recover files.
2) Restart the machine in "Safe Mode".
3) Start: All Programs: Accessories: System Tools: Disk Defragmenter

The reason you start in safe mode is because, among other things, the defragger looks for files which have changed. Safe mode does not allow virtual memory to start. Virtual memory is hard drive based. When used, the disk defragmenter sees that virtual memory activity on the hard drive as a change in the file - so it wants to defrag that area... but virtual memory is dynamic, so it is constantly changing - so the defrag app wants to look at the area... In safe mode, without virtual memory active, the defrag app can efficiently do its job and not worry about file change activity. Don't do anything else while the defrag app is running. The amount of time it takes to complete the defragmenting process will depend on the number of files on the hard drive, the amount of available hard drive space and the extent of the file fragmentation...

AAAAAAAA = a file
BBBBB = a file
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC = a file
DDDDDDDDDDD = a file

Lets say I worked on them sequentially... and they now appear on my hard drive as:

AAAAAAAABBBBBCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCDDDDDDDDDDD

Then, I go back and make some changes to A. There is not enough room in the existing space, so when you save, all the existing A area is used and a pointer says to find the rest of it "over there"... so, it looks like:
AAAAAAAABBBBBCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCDDDDDDDDDDDAAAAA

Then I do more work on D:
AAAAAAAABBBBBCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCDDDDDDDDDDDAAAAADDD

And some work on C:
AAAAAAAABBBBBCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCDDDDDDDDDDDAAAAACCCC

I go back to A and delete a bunch of info:
AAAAA BBBBBCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCDDDDDDDDDDD CCCC

And imagine this has happened with hundreds of files that you might have used over the course of 3 years... and, of course, your hard drive is filling. All these little bits of available memory are all over the hard drive, so in order to make use of that space, the hard drive heads have to move all over the drive to get to those available spaces... Specifically, it is the virtual memory that is moving in and out of those little spaces rather than one (of just a few) large spaces...

I try to defrag my Windows machine about every 6 months or so. I have never worried about defragging my OSX Mac-based files.

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Agreed
Mar 22, 2007 3:02AM PDT

I use a PC and Mac's. I've had PC's for 5 years, and at one point I was using a Mac that I had for over 10 years.

The reason both lasted so long was that I maintained them:
- regular OS maintenance
- never upgrading software to the point that I now had OS/software combinations that were not ideal or optimized for my hardware. - NOTE: you don't always have to have the newest OS or version of some software - they do make your PC and Mac run slower.
- cleaning your hardware

That said, Apple does have good support, if you get AppleCare protection. If you have an Apple Store in your area, their Genius Bar support is pretty good as well. There is no reason that a Mac should not last you for 5-10 years, if you properly maintain it.

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Not sure if this is true but...
Mar 22, 2007 5:56AM PDT

I heard a piece about Apple and their computers on the radio a couple of weeks ago. They were saying how poor the Apple employees and support team are. They say there has been numerous complaints about ordinary people going to the Apple store and buying a Mac and while trying to learn the interface, the store employees and even people over the phone are rude and arrogant because they think, "How can you not know that?!" or other comments like that. People can even sense it when they talk to them and try to "help" them. If this is how they act to their new customers, I surely would not want to go into that store feeling like an idiot while they make fun of my "Mac ability deficiency".

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I wouldn't doubt
Mar 22, 2007 6:09AM PDT

I wouldn't doubt that at some retail locations, or even on basic phone support, that there are a few "bad eggs". It happens, I've had it happen to me on Dell phone support. I have to plead to get someone that speaks english, and that won't put me through the standard Q and A routine.

It can happen with any retailer. It has happened more lately with Apple.

Get to know your local Apple store Genius Bar people and develop a relationship with them. If you are completely new to the Mac, TELL THEM. That way they can't assume. And as with any retail location, at any reseller (even Best Buy) if you get poor service, get management involved.

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It's not me...
Mar 22, 2007 6:42AM PDT

I don't have a Mac. I was just letting people know what I have seen and heard. I have called Dell many times and I don't really care about what accent they have. At least they help me out with the problems I have and don't think of themselves as "being the greatest" and think of me as "the least".

On the Genius Bar employees, there is no reason they should be there if they want customers to be happy. Polite and courteous service = 50% of a successful business. If people pay $100 a year for Apple Care, at least $20 of that should go to helpful service. Invest in what's important Apple!

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Apple is losing LOADS of Sales
Mar 22, 2007 12:31PM PDT

You know Apple has the ability to beat up Microsoft easily. But problem is it does not sell internationally properly. Many countries dont have Apple Stores and they have to buy from other countries which is very expensive. Micosoft is much better in this case.

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Many States in the U.S.
Mar 22, 2007 10:48PM PDT

Do not have an Apple Store either.

How about you start your own Apple Authorized Reseller business in your country?

P

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I don't worry. Vista is helping the switch.
Mar 22, 2007 11:04PM PDT

Just visit our Vista Forum. I'm seeing more Apples at the local coffee shop. Last time I was mildly shocked to see 3 macs and 1 pc. I think you must be talking about 3rd world countries where the concerns are not pc related, but that's another story entirely. There I feel that other than Windows or Mac is the right answer. Maybe something developed locally or in their country.

Bob

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Dubai already has a Authorised REseller
Mar 23, 2007 12:48AM PDT

There are a few Authorised REseller but they charge WAAAY TOO high. If HP, Acer etc can sell for normal prices, then i cant see why Apple cant now that it uses 'PC' hardware.

Dubai is a BIGGGG business hub and a lot of sales are being lost by Apple. I personally know people who WANT to buy a Mac but because of the prices, PCs look a bit too attractive. Only high end pros like in the newspapers and mags use and buy Macs. Sniff sniff

I am going to get my Mac from Canada.

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"i cant see why Apple cant now that it uses 'PC' hardware."
Mar 23, 2007 1:01AM PDT

For you, the OS and such appear to not hold value. Also you may be shocked if your warranty is not honored outside of the country of purchase.

-> To wit you may not be aware that doing business in said other countries may carry increased costs such as tariffs or high fees for shop space or other requirements.

I've heard your argument before and it falls flat as we examine the market forces in whichever country we examine. It's not Apple.

Bob

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Other shops too.....
Mar 29, 2007 11:51AM PDT

WEll there are other shops as well that sell Macs and even they are expensive.

I was looking at the Macs yesterday at the biggest Electronics store in the middle east: EMAX and a Mac Pro cost around AED 10999 compared to AED 7300 from the USA. Ironically the iMac 20" cost around AED 7600 so looking at this wouldnt it be better for me to buy from USA or Canada? If I can afford around AED7000 then it would be better for me to go for a MAc Pro.

I can't get it why this is happening. Import taxes are only 5% here and then there are no more taxes or anything to anyone.

One possibilty is that IMC UAE, the authorised Distributor has a monopoly and is selling Macs to every one at big profits.

Other possibilty is that Apple sends the MAcs abroad for a big price so even IMC cant help it. If Apple does this then they are losing a lot of sales.

Another possibilty si that shipping fees are high. Maye because of the low sales, IMC might order small batches and so the over shipping might cost a lot. But if that is true then how do HP and all manage low costs? IMc should find a way out of this shipping problem if there is any.

Talking about market forces, most people buy PCs, I mean I dont know any one with a Mac except if they are designing pros. So I would say that the prices should be kept low looking at the low sales.

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I lean toward your theory
Mar 29, 2007 9:46PM PDT

of the importer making obscene profits on the machines.

Small market, only one supplier, write your own ticket.

P

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"Beat up Microsoft easily"?
Mar 23, 2007 12:48AM PDT

OK... if you say so - but personally, I feel better having a diverse ecosystem than 1 dominant player. I hate it when I hear/read about another piece of malware being released and a gazillion machines getting infected (and mine not) because the OS is different enough to not get infected - It allows me to be productive when others are tied up allowing their IT departments (or the Geek Squad or whatever) be productive.

When it makes business sense, more stores will happen. I just hope it is not at my expense...

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You are quite right...
Mar 29, 2007 11:41AM PDT

I was quite pleased to hear that Dell is going to use Linux on its new machines. Not mentioned which machines and all but it IS going to use Linux.

A market with good quality OSes would be quite an interesting place compared to the Windows dominated place we live in!

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umm..
Mar 25, 2007 3:51PM PDT

AppleCare isn't $100 a year, it's around $100-$350 (depending on what u purchase)ONE TIME ONLY.. AppleCare is a warranty. (are there warranties where you pay incrementally, like monthly/annually?)

the $100 a year is for .Mac, which is extra, online features. Such as hard drive on a server, email address, web account, etc.

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What does warranty mean?
Mar 28, 2007 10:07PM PDT

I have heard/read all this before.
For a proverbial man in the street it means little. My experience of Apple care is not much to crow about.
Most of the users have minor issues, which are best solved by help from Bob and P . A few who get landed with a lemon need some help which is worth having,it is enshrined in the law of the land .Where manafacturer's help is concerned, you need to develop a strong liking for listening to music, which Applecare dishes out(and others).

In spite of all we need to put things in proper perspective and weigh up our needs and likes.On balance I opted for Apple. I use both PC and Apple,

I have just bought a MacBook, which gave me problems,Telephone helpline guarantee did not do much to solve the problem. They promised to ring back but never did. I did not worry too much as the issue got settled.

I know it does not give a catagorical answer to the original question, but it points out one important principle: At the end of the day you are going to go with your prejudices or else acquire the expertise of Bob and P.
Shafiq

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I find a lot of PC owners...
Mar 29, 2007 12:25PM PDT

... seemingly challenge apple to be perfect in every way. Question is, why does an apple have to be perfect?

So many PC owners consider purchasing an apple because of nagging problems with their PCs that build up frustration year after year until they start saying to themselves, "there has got to be a better way". Then, when questions arise about apple's performance or service or cost... any possible problems become a deal breaker to obsess about.

Reality is apple computers are good because the OS and the hardware are well matched to work together. Apple tries to make no compromise in the quality of hardware like some bargain priced computers do. They do charge a premium price for their efforts.

About complaints with genius bar staff and/or service? I sold consumer electronics (high end TVs, home theater, etc) for 6 years. Not all the people I worked with were the greatest at service or problem solving. What can a business do? You need employees... business is expanding... some of your employee choices don't work out. Does that make the product defective? Hardly.

I don't expect PC users to quite being distrustful of apple. Why should they? They have had years of frustration with a product that they convince themselves is worth the annoying little problems they deal with on a daily basis. How can you give up on all the dedication you have put into making the relationship work? How can a PC user just give up all the time and money for the promise of something that might be better?

I had a girlfriend like that once. Spent a couple of years convincing myself that all the hassles would eventually be worth it. Dumping her was the best decision I ever made. Wink

Look, apple isn't for everyone. Some people get one and don't like it. But you can never speak with any real authority about apple computers until you actually drive one for a month or two... so how can I take a comment like "I don't have a Mac. I was just letting people know what I have seen and heard" seriously?

Hey... I think my old girl friend is still single. You want her number? Grin

grim

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I still find it hilarious...
Mar 30, 2007 6:11AM PDT

that when you hear the word PC you consider it to be Windows oriented. Is a Mac not a "personal computer"? Just like the word "gay" today. It has a whole different meaning than when it did 20 yrs ago and beyond. Seems to have gone the same way...

I'm sorry you are trying to defend Apple on this one, but it really isn't necessary this time. Facts are facts. This isn't a discussion about how a company hires staff and this really isn't about trying to bash Apple (as what most Mac OS users think we do), this is about telling people that stuff like this has happened and it's just a word of caution. No need to write a novel explaining why I shouldn't post my comment.

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LOL
Mar 30, 2007 10:30AM PDT

I didn't write to suggest you shouldn't have posted. You are quite welcome to post anything here.

I just tried to point out 2 things.

First... bad employees happen. Informative service is important. Doesn't mean the equipment is bad.

Secondly... how can you really give any educated opinion about apple computers when you don't have one?

Look, if you don't have an apple and don't intend on buying one, then your obviously hanging out on the mac forums for a different reason. You just might do us all a service and let folks know what that motivation is when you post. Now I will say you have made a few informative posts and even thrown a tip or two my way and I believe I said thanks for the tips. I'm just trying to suggest that you come off as frustrated and need some balancing to your comments. Maybe if you bought an apple....

Anyway... PC now a days is synonymous with windows. If you want to get technical, the first commercially viable Personal Computer was an apple. PCs will run a variety of operating systems if the right hardware configuration is available. Do you run linux? Maybe you could give mac users tips on the best linux for macs since apples can run linux as well.

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I switched a couple of years ago.......
Mar 30, 2007 7:44AM PDT

and recently switched back. OS X would go into complete freezes that were unsolvable without shutting the machine down. Never had any problem like that with XP. And the logic board problems were ungodly and remained unsolved after replacement. Not exactly uncompromising hardware quality. I might have had a few months of full functionality in my Mac experience.

The closed platform with Mac OS is a trap that works to Apple's advantage, not the user's.

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Sorry to heear of your bad experience.
Mar 30, 2007 10:44AM PDT

I had the same experience with a windows PC. Didn't stop me from buying 2 more PCs including a Compaq and a new E-Machine last year.

Fortunately my experience with mac has been much more pleasant than yours. Bought my current mac over 2 years ago and have yet to have a problem I couldn't fix.

What did you ever do with your problematic mac?

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Thanks and Question re: Leopard
Apr 5, 2007 11:26PM PDT

Thanks for this input and all the others, it has been very helpful and informative to me. On balance, I think I will likely go with an iMac for my next computer when I buy one(HP is now on attempt #2 to fix my computer they sent it back supposedly repaired once but it was still not working), but I won't expect perfection!

One other question I had was, if I am going to go with an iMac do people think it make sense to wait for the new Leopard OS? I'm not entirely sure what the differences will be or whether there would be the ability to upgrade (with or w/o cost) to the new OS if necessary. I am just always leery of buying a product where there is about to be a significant change.Thanks.

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In your situation it would
Apr 6, 2007 12:26AM PDT

be as well to wait for the release of Leopard (June?)before purchasing an iMac.
The "free" upgrade usually only applies to machines purchased within a limited time before the OS was released.
As Apple never gives an exact date for future releases, you would be guessing and may well purchase too early.

P