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General discussion

Computer crashing with no BSOD

Apr 19, 2018 6:09AM PDT

Hi I'm kinda new to this so I'll try and explain my situation as best as possible. I have owned my current PC for just over 1 year now. A few months into using it I started to get random freezes where the display would just stop accompanied by the sound freezing too and making a buzzing sound. The only way to stop it would be to manually restart the PC. Event viewer would show no errors. These could be at any time with seemingly no trigger. It could happen when Idle, when gaming or watching YouTube videos etc. In some weird situations, the computer may freeze completely during watching a video and pressing keys will seem to stop the freeze which is confusing.
I have tried a lot of things to try and fix this issue including uninstalling unused software and re-installing software I do use. Uninstalling my Anti-Virus to see if that was an issue. I have tried rolling back my Graphic Card Drivers to what they were when I first bought this PC. I have ran CHDSK and MemTest, I have checked and updated any drivers on the system. At this point I can only assume that maybe it is a hardware issue. I'm pretty lost right now as to what I can do to fix it and so am seeking any advice and help anyone can provide to me. It would be greatly appreciated.

Speccy Link to Specs etc: http://speccy.piriform.com/results/CMwxcgTox6AcuEVBRwbLsA2]

Discussion is locked

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Bad Speccy Link
Apr 19, 2018 6:43AM PDT
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New Speccy Link
Apr 19, 2018 6:58AM PDT
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1 year?
Apr 19, 2018 8:10AM PDT

The CPU came out in 2012. Hang on here. Let's check out that board too.
Motherboard is from mid-2016. So I can't guess why the dated CPU.

Let's see if the BIOS is current. Speccy says Version F1, maker is up to F1. So far so good.

You write that you checked drivers. This usually means you used Microsoft's update driver button.
Sorry but this is not how it's done. For your machine you get drivers from the makers. Such as
https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-990X-Gaming-SLI-rev-10#support-dl

I'd redo the drivers the old fashioned way and see if that helps.

Also, take a moment to disable the following:
https://www.howtogeek.com/224981/how-to-stop-windows-10-from-uploading-updates-to-other-pcs-over-the-internet/

I don't see the power supply make and model but let's state that it shall be a SINGLE RAIL MODEL of about 500 Watts.

The random hangs are again traced back to GPUs so research which driver to use. https://www.google.com/search?q=rx+550+hangs finds many others having issues. May want to swap this for another card to sniff this out.

Sorry if I don't give a line by line reading of the Speccy but the machine is one that I expect to find its way to a repair counter. Next time? Consider PCMR builds at https://www.reddit.com/r/PCMasterRace/wiki/builds

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Thanks
Apr 19, 2018 8:37AM PDT

Checking with my order invoice this build is actually less than a year old in terms of when I acquired it, can't speak for the age of the actual hardware though of course. I was unaware of the age of the CPU in relation to Motherboard, this PC was custom built but I was assisted and advised by the store it was built at and so I can't really answer why that might be the case.

I had already checked the BIOS to see if it was up to date. I'll give updating the drivers via the Gigabyte site another go, I was aware that this is how it is done.

The tweak with Windows Update was already done as well.

If you're still interested the PSU specifications are as followed:
Thermaltake 600W TR2 S 80+ Certified PFC PSU

I'll also look into rolling back to a stable GPU driver to see if that helps, there was a period where the hangs seemed to stop so I should probably try rolling back to different drivers and seeing how long I can go without getting any crashes, if of course that is the issue.

Thank you for your response its been tough for me to try and nail down the problem without any proficient knowledge myself.

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Not a single rail PSU.
Apr 19, 2018 8:45AM PDT

It's possibly OK for this build as the GPU is about 75W peak. But we like to stay under 50% using a simple rule. Take the CPU and GPU TDP and don't exceed the Watts of the 12V rail. If split rail we take the lower of the rails which in this case is 20A. Or 240W. The CPU is 125W and the GPU about 75.

So this breaks our house rule. Remember each shop has its own rules about this. Here we stick with single rails because we don't want to spend another minute trying to get by with a cheaper PSU.

I forgot to mention that we want to disable W10's driver update system. How is on the web. Then we install drivers from the makers in the order of motherboard chipset, audio, video, LAN and the rest.

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Clarification
Apr 19, 2018 9:18AM PDT

Windows 10 driver update system was already disabled. Given what you said about the PSU am I to understand that the PSU I am using is under capacity? Sorry I'm a bit of a simpleton haha. I guess the implication is then that some of my hardware just isn't up to scratch? Again I appreciate your responses.

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I missed a few words.
Apr 19, 2018 9:37AM PDT

I meant our house rule is to not exceed 50%. We'll give it a grudging pass at 75% but this is pushing it as it's a dual rail and bound to see issues down the road for this and other reasons.

I am not writing this is the problem. Just that it wouldn't be an advised build.

You still have a lot of work on drivers.

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Done some updates
Apr 19, 2018 10:44AM PDT

Okay thanks sorry I misunderstood or rather didn't read your response properly. I have re-installed/installed all the drivers listed on the Motherboard manufacturers website. I believe I did this previously but have been more thorough this time. I also used DDU and rolled back my GPU Driver to a previous version. We'll see if I get more stability this way. As I said before there was a period where the issue seemed to stop perhaps it was related to the GPU Drivers I was using at the time. I tend to keep them updated but perhaps issues with newer versions have affected my system. If the issue persists I will take my system to a repair specialist or store local to me. Thanks for the advice.

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As a favor could you check out your Windows handles?
Apr 19, 2018 10:50AM PDT
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Update
Apr 20, 2018 10:05AM PDT

Thanks I checked out the article and took a look at the Handles in Task Manager, nothing seemed to be using anymore than 5,000 Handles of the processes that were running at the time, not even when playing Games. I had another crash today, total freeze of the video and sound, but I spammed keys on the keyboard and the freeze went away instantly. This seems pretty strange, not sure if that can help nail down the issue. I'll note your advice on Video drivers. Thanks

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To nail down the issue
Apr 20, 2018 10:15AM PDT

You have to change things until you find it. Here we can only point out suspects. The PSU is not one I'd use in a new build because it's split rail which is problematic for most folk as most are not electronic or electrical engineers. They won't be able to measure the loads and move loads from one rail to another to balance the rails.

The machine is sadly you see in shops all too often. But to nail what it is, you have to fix it. This is where the PC industry is failing today. There is no sure way to know just with the data we covered so far and we know a lot about the PC.

Again, this means you do the work, swap out the parts that are suspect and keep testing. Then swap more.

-> I didn't see any signs of heat issues but this does not mean it's not heat. Parts can degrade or just be heat sensitive and you end up swapping this or that because you suspect it and keep testing.

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One or Two Things to Consider
Apr 20, 2018 8:09PM PDT

The AMD FX8350 is a good processor/cpu. It does have, however, a tendency to run hot compared to some other cpus. Therefore, it needs good cooling, and so does the computer case itself. Since this is a custom built pc we must assume the builders provided a good cpu heatsink/fan and a couple of case fans for good airflow. Dust accumulates in the case, so i suggest that you unplug the power cord, remove the side panel, and blast all the dust from the cpu's heatsink fins as well as from all the fans and any dust filter/screen at the front of the case. Also, blast air into the fan(s) of the graphics card. It's best to do this outdoors if possible.
Speccy says your hard drive temperatures are 32 deg. C. Just for comparison, my pc has a hot-running Intel Core i7 extreme edition cpu which, like your cpu, generates a fair amount of heat. My case has two front fans and one rear exhaust fan. In addition to an SSD the pc has three hard drives. According to Speccy the temperatures are:
Sandisk 953GB SSD - 23 deg. C.
WD 931GB - 25 deg. C.
Seagate 931GB - 26 deg. C.
Toshiba 5589GB - 25 deg. C.
Based on those temps, is it possible that dust or a lack of front fans are a problem? Can you see if any front fans are actually spinning?
Maybe it's dust buildup in the graphics card? Or, maybe the graphics card itself is failing prematurely?
Another possibility: If i read your Speccy report correctly, you have a lot of tabs open in Chrome browser. From experience, i can confirm that uses a lot of system memory. Add to that all the background processes and services that are running, and just maybe memory is running low? If you have all those tabs open while playing a demanding 3D game that could tax the system heavily, especially memory and graphics.
Regarding your power supply: Since your graphics does NOT draw a lot of power, the power supply should be sufficient for all requirements of your pc. If, however, you ever have reason to suspect the power supply isn't doing its job, consider investing in something like a Seasonic G-550.
I've experienced the same freezing as you while playing a graphically intense game on Windows 10. Maybe my graphics was overwhelmed by the demands placed upon it when i got killed and quickly respawned, killed again and respawned, etc.. BUT, it never happened on Windows 10 when it was first installed (or on Windows 8.1). It only happened over the last few months after the Creators Update to Windows 10.

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Agree. Heat related.
Apr 21, 2018 9:26PM PDT

That's a "hot" processor. Freeze with no BSOD is a good indication the processor has dropped out due to heat. Replace the thermal paste on CPU.

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Update
Apr 22, 2018 8:40AM PDT

Thanks for this response. I do try to keep the system as clean as possible and clean it out every other week. I'll give it a more thorough cleaning though especially of the Graphics Card. As to the Chrome Broswser processes, I never have anything else on gaming for this very reason. When the crashes first started I made sure to have as little running as possible whilst playing and have kept to that. I think what I will try to do is give it a proper cleanout, and make sure the front fans and everything are clean too. Replacing the thermal paste too will probably be a good measure as recommended by another post here. Hopefully these steps go some way to resolving the issue. I'll try keep this updated if I have anymore crashes

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Power Supply
Apr 22, 2018 7:09AM PDT

Hi,

How old is the Power Supply & what is its constant power output in watts?

Many cheap power supplies say their peak capacity rather than their constant output capacity.

If it is something like an old 350 watt PSU it may not be up to supplying enough power for all your components thus browning out your computer which can damage almost all your components over time.

I once upgraded my Video Card & the computer wouldn't start up at all. A mate swaped out my 500 watt PSU for his 800 watt PSU and it ran no problems at all.

Look forward to your response.

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PSU
Apr 22, 2018 8:53AM PDT

The make of the PSU is as follows: Thermaltake 600W TR2 S 80+ Certified PFC PSU

I can't speak for the manufacturing age of this unit but I bought the PC home from the shop just under a year ago now, June 7th 2017 was when I got it home. If I'm honest I'd hope that the need to replace any parts can be avoided but obviously if it is a hardware fault or issue then eventually I will have to replace some parts. I'd just like to at least know why the crashes happen for peace of mind haha.

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This PC breaks our house rule about PSU and other issues.
Apr 22, 2018 9:11AM PDT

PSUs lose capacity over time which is why we have our rules. Don't want the client coming back too soon for repairs.

But let's get something out of the way. The machine is one you see at repair counters often. Since diagnostics often don't find what's amiss we tackle this by fixing what we don't like then if the machine doesn't behave we move to new motherboard and in this case another GPU.

The research on the GPU and hangs showed it could be an issue.

AMD is known for iffy drivers. This is part of the reason why we don't update drivers unless we have a good reason. There are companies that promote driver updaters and frankly make more business for repair counters.

--> Here's what you have to know. Today's PC is not always going to reveal what's amiss and in this PC we have too many suspect areas. You have to choose to make this a warranty issue as you took it home June 7th 2017 and it hasn't been a year or to start the work of changing the suspect parts and fixing it yourself.

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PS. The machine as noted used an old CPU.
Apr 22, 2018 9:26AM PDT

I noted it's from 2012 so I'm left with a worry they were recycling parts. Maybe it's for meeting a cost target but I find these build for the cost often to cost more over time so I won't build those. Even if that's what the client wants. Let other companies take the hit.

There's a lot to consider as no one part jumps up and say "It's a me." But given it's been less than a year why not let the maker fix it?

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Swap Out Parts
Apr 22, 2018 4:36PM PDT

Hi

Thanks for the info on the PSU. Should be OK but time & use wears them down.

If possible swaping out different components might find the problem.

Hopefully you have a friend with a working system who would allow / help you to swap out components and test as follows. You may simply have one component that is causing your problems.

If the problem goes away when one component is swapped out you have your answer. Process of elimination can find that a component though still working may be causing your system to crash.

Process
1/. Disconnect the cables from DVD Drives. See if the System still crashes. If it does reconnect them.

2/. Swap out RAM. See if the System still crashes. If it does reinstall RAM.

3/. Swap out Video Card. See if the System still crashes. If it does reinstall Video Card.

4/. Swap out PSU. See if the System still crashes. If it does reinstall PSU.

If you can used parts from a friends computer the only cost is time and if you find the problem goes away when one of your present components is swaped out you simply replace it.

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Update from OP
May 1, 2018 1:55PM PDT

Apologies for appearing to abandon this thread. I can provide an update on my situation now. It appears the crashing issue was almost certainly down to temperature. The CPU was at times overheating significantly. The AMD website specifies that this core can handle up to 61c. Using hardware monitoring software such as HWInfo I was able to see that at times my CPU was getting as hot as 85c which if it stayed at for long enough was causing the system to either crash or switch itself off entirely.

Upon advice here, I removed the CPU fan which I found to be improperly attached, and noticed that the thermal paste on both the heatsink and the CPU plate was not properly applied. I bought some new thermal paste and re-applied it properly as per the recommended way for this CPU, a guide to which I found online. I also re-attached the CPU fan properly.

Using HWinfo again I have been able to see a noticeable drop in the average CPU temperature. I have not had a crash since performing these changes and am monitoring my temperatures daily. I am also making use of the Gigabyte App centre software to customise my fan speeds, for example when gaming I am running them at full RPM and averaging about 55c. I have noticed that occasionally but for only a few seconds the CPU temperatures go above 61c, which I put down to other processes activating in the backgorund perhaps. I will continue to monitor it however. I think long term I should seriously consider upgrading my CPU fan as to ensure the CPU is getting sufficient cooling all the time.

Hopefully I don't have further crashes. The unfortunate thing for me was that the store at which this PC was built went out of business early this year, and so I was unable to take it back into them for a check up. On top of that I was in the process of moving so I kind of had to figure this one out for myself as I had no time nor resources to take it into another shop for repair. Fingers crossed I have resolved the issue for now. We'll see if anything else becomes a problem in the future.

Thanks everyone for your responses.

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Thanks for the update.
May 1, 2018 2:02PM PDT

If things are improperly assembled, all beats are off. As the temp was sporadic and Speccy in this case didn't report temp on the CPU your investigation found the issue. Good sleuthing.