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General discussion

Clueless about MP3 players, need help!

Dec 5, 2008 7:12AM PST
Question:

Hello there. I hope your community of members can help this novice out. For the holidays, I'm planning to surprise both my grandkids (ages 11 and 14) with an MP3 player each, but the sad thing is I don't know a thing about them. I went to the local store and I was quite shocked to find how many of these players there are. For instance, I thought the iPod was just one type of player, but to my surprise there are a few different models just from the iPod name, which makes it even more confusing. I know it would be difficult for you to determine what is best for my grandkids, but I would like to get them something that they will enjoy for years to come. I don't want to buy them a cheap one, nor do I want to overspend (budget is $100 to $200), but I do want them to be happy with what I get them and be the coolest grandma who is hip with what's in. It's a big surprise for them and bigger challenge for me because right now I'm clueless. If you can help me out and explain with simple terms the overall differences between the varieties of MP3 players there are, what makes a good and bad MP3 player, what features are favorable or unfavorable, I would be forever grateful.

Submitted by: A lost grandma, Louise T.

Here are some featured member answers to get you started, but
please read up on all the advice and suggestions that our
members have contributed to this member's question.

The MP3 player rundown --Submitted by MehStrongBadMeh -
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-7595_102-0.html?forumID=71&threadID=319109&messageID=2921723#2921723

MP3 players... --Submitted by Watzman
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-7595_102-0.html?forumID=71&threadID=319109&messageID=2921728#2921728

MP3 purchase... --Submitted by forkboy
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-7595_102-0.html?forumID=71&threadID=319109&messageID=2923013#2923013

If you have some additional suggestion, advice, or tips for Louise, please click the reply link and share it with us. Please be keep it in simple terms and when necessary in details when appropriate. Thanks!

Discussion is locked

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Get over yourself, mate.....
Dec 30, 2008 5:20PM PST

Look at the Motorola Razor, it was cool when it was new, mainly because it looked different compared to other phones, in the end, it was still a phone, and not even a cleverly designed one at that.

Look at Honda Civics, Mitsubishi Eclipses, and Nissan 240SXs, and the ridiculous body kits that came along with them, everyone (mainly kids) wanted these cars because of one of the worst movie series of all time, Fast and the Furious, now look how that has died off in recent years.

Mullets were also a fad (and hopefully contained to the 80's and modern day trailer parks) that died off after a while as well.

What I was intending to get across in the post you replied to was the fact that the iPod Touch (and iPods in general) and the Wii will continue to see lowering sales and increased disinterest in the product. IT IS A ******* FAD.... Neither of these two products will be as popular or become a standard as the television has. There is nothing revolutionary about a touch screen. There is nothing revolutionary about a motion tracking controller. There is nothing revolutionary about beating a substandard product into the youth of our world with mass marketing and overhype.

And honestly, children, fat people, and in general, any moron that thinks the Wii is a great form of exercise, should have gotten their out of shape asses outside and enjoyed some fresh air a long time ago. Now for the elderly, I do agree it is a good form of exercise/entertainment.

Seriously, you will be looking back on this conversation (if you can call it that, I feel as if I am speaking to a 2nd grade class with various degrees of learning disabilities at the moment) and see that, like the pet rock, the mullet, and Honda Civics with body kits, within the next 2 years and say "Damn, he and everyone else was right." These things will not last long in their current state, technology never really does...

Point made....

+1 the_eternal_dark

Now **** off, module409...

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lol
Dec 30, 2008 9:11PM PST

Great comment! Happy

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Forcefully Stated..
Jan 20, 2009 1:03AM PST

And yet still pure Bull****. The Wii and the iPod are NOT seeing declining interest and/or sales. That's just a fantasy you perpetuate to support your nonsense claim that the game changing Wii and the constantly evolving and bestselling iPod are fads. If and when those two end their runs, you will look back and claim "I told you so", but even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

You want to keep buying lowest common denominator crap, go right ahead. Want to be a "hater" and pretend you get street cred by bashing #1, Hey, go hard.

But it's quite instructive that the overwhelming majority of the suggestions in here believe that bashing Apple and the iPod constitutes good buying advice. It's not. You either have useful information or not. "Apple sucks and is overpriced LOL11!!!" are just the usual Apple bashing nonsense. Even the ranting about price is meaningless if you don't explain what you are or are not getting for your money.

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So Funny!
Jan 20, 2009 2:44AM PST

It?s so funny how MAC/Apple devotees get so upset when you point out a few simple facts! It?s as if they are discomfited by such statements!

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I completely agree bmaciver!
Jan 20, 2009 3:56AM PST

It IS funny! But that's how the Apple crowd reacts because they have no other way to argue their point towards a product they so blindly endorse. They call us "haters" or "bashers", but none of us have said the Apple Ipod is a bad mp3 player. We've only tried to point out other makes and models that have more features at a lesser price. (which by the way doesn't make them garbage or cheap)
If being a good consumer makes you an "apple basher" than so be it. The original post was about a Grandmother looking to purchase an MP3 player for her grandchildren and she was working with a limited budget. Nobody on this forum has claimed Apple puts out a bad product, quite the contrary. The Ipod is a great piece of equipment. However, the smart consumers here merely tried to offer Grandma other alternatives that would give her (& her Grandchildren) the best "bang for their buck". Apple, just like other brand names (Polo Ralph Lauren, BMW, Samsung HDTV's & the list goes on and on) are all great products. But you're paying a huge premium for the "name". And all good consumers know there are products out there that are just as good (and often times better) than a brand name product.
So all you trend following Ipod loving people out there, don't get so bent out of shape, it's not the end of the world. Happy Some of us merely attempted to "open your eyes" to other alternatives. Which in this day and age when everyone is trying to save money and/or get the best value possible for their hard earned money, is very important. (Especially to all the Grandma's out there on a fixed budget) So please don't take it so hard Mr Apple-man....it's just a friendly discussion. Happy
Have a great day!

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thumbs up eternal_dark
Jan 16, 2009 10:31PM PST

I agree his choice of words are wrong. Fad is not what neither of them are. He is however correct about what you get,,, Once you get past the coolness of the ipod it's just a over-hyped, over priced toy! The ipod is pure trend! The quality is far from the best. You get so much more bang for your buck by overlooking trend and being a smart shopper. Stop buying what the TV Commercials tell you is right and make a decision for yourself. Personally I put Sansa, Creative and Cowon towards the top of the list of Best Bang for your buck. Try checking out www.AnythingButIpod.com. This will give you some great information.

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excellent comments bmaciver
Jan 17, 2009 3:03PM PST

You said it best! I wish they would move your comments to the very front so people that have no clue about MP3 players would read your comment before all others. The fact is the IPod is just a fad and is extremely overpriced and over-hyped waste of money.
Like you said.....Please people....be smart consumers. Stop being "followers" and start being leaders. Think for yourselves for once instead of trying to keep up with the Jones's by buying into the Apple hype. There are so many other great MP3 players on the market that have twice the features and cost less than half of what the Ipod does.

a side note....I disagree with the poster that says "stay away from flash media like the plague". While hard drives are great, I've never had a problem with flash media and I've used SD and Micro SD cards in my pc, my MP3 player, my cell phone, my printer and two digital camera's for years without any problems. It's a great media and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. As well as it being extremely affordable these days.

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Ha!
Jan 18, 2009 8:41AM PST

Yeah, Right. The number One MP3 player on the planet, which has laid waste to all other pretenders to the throne, is just a "fad".

You Apple bashers really need to get over yourselves. You don't want an Apple product? Nobody cares. But if you think that your advocacy for some other brand is bolstered by your "hater" credentials, you are mistaken.

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Yeah but we get the last laugh
Jan 18, 2009 8:59AM PST

You Apple fanboy's have wasted your money on a product with half the features than a less expensive compatible all for a name. Those of us that choose not to buy into the hype end up with the last laugh.
Have a great day.

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Last Laugh?
Jan 19, 2009 1:07AM PST

You mean when your lowest common denominator junk isn't supported any longer, your proprietary DRM schemes leave you hanging and you have to buy another one, you'll still be laughing? Please stop. You want fads? Look at every dopey player that's been hailed as an "iPod Killer". Where are they now? In landfills, and probably not even made anymore.

Your bluster is ridiculous. Apple has sold 170 million iPods of all shapes and sizes. Unless it's your contention that every Apple "fanboy" bought 40 iPods each, once again, just to be clear, your Apple bashing just makes you a whiner and a hater, as well as disconnected from the reality that Apple is the #1 player for a plethora of reasons, and it's not because of fashion or hype.

It's because of a solidly built product with ease of use second to none, and a constantly improving and growing ecosystem of content, added functionality and accessories.

So please, keep up the charade, but the only one laughing is Apple and the people who choose quality over knock off devices with a laundry list of useless features. You have your hate to keep you warm. Good luck.

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Yes, the last laugh
Jan 19, 2009 2:17AM PST

So it's better to get the interface of a rotary dial phone on the iPod than getting the uselessness of four times the storage, an FM radio tuner, and MP4 video, all for a lesser price?

And the iPod wasn't the first MP3 player, so the iPod is actually a knockoff device itself. It just got hyped in the media so much that the clueless public quickly became obsessed with it.

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That's Nice..
Jan 19, 2009 3:26AM PST

Nice and nonsensical. Nobody cares who is first. It's entirely irrelevant. But it's a fact that the landfills are full of mp3 players that claimed to be iPod killers who are themselves dead. But I noticed that you didn't address that. There were cell phones before the iPhone as well. How relevant is that? Pretty irrelevant. Or are you going to argue that a Porsche Boxster has nothing on the Model T because the Boxster is a knock off of the first automobile?

MP4 video? Who do you think DEFINES the new MPEG standards for video? I'll give you a hint. It starts with APPLE. FM tuner? I have 16 gigs of storage because I want to listen to my own music. And the sales say no one cares about FM.

4 times the storage? 4 times what? 4 times who?

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Who's Bashing?
Jan 19, 2009 3:51AM PST

Bashing? Who?s bashing? When it comes right down to it, it?s not much different from politics and religion,,, everyone is better than all the rest. They all have their pros and cons. What?s important to understand is that we succeed in life by making our own decisions,,, not following the cults! Sure iPods are simple to operate,,, but some of us need simplicity! Some of us don?t have the ability to think things through on our own. Proprietary leads to lack of flexibility. Sure I purchase a new mp3 player every 3 to 4 years; only because there?s newer technology available on the market and I?m interested in something new. When deciding between an iPod and numerous other mp3/video devices on the market, what benefit do I possibly get from paying $11.00 per GB versus $31.00 per GB? What benefit do I get from purchasing a device that gives me 16.7m colors on the display versus 64k? What benefit do I get from buying a device that gives me the ability to upgrade and add additional storage space for minimal costs? I can go on with the ?what if?s? but what?s the point? I did forget one thing about iPods; they do offer tons of overpriced accessories if that?s what you?re interested in, such as FM Tuners which no one is really interested in but they sell them anyway!

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no bashing here
Jan 19, 2009 5:00AM PST

Nobody is "bashing" the Ipod. I never said it wasn't a good product. I'm just saying that people should look and see what else is out there instead of blindly following the Ipod loving crowd. As noted dozens of times in this post, there are tons of MP3 players on the market that are just as good as the Ipod at half the price. With Apple, you're paying a premium for the Apple "name". It's not by any stretch of the imagination a better product than the Zen or the Zune. Not to mention the Ipod has half the features as those other players.
As for the FM tuner: maybe you don't listen to the radio anymore, but I know alot of people that still do, including myself. Just because it's not something you like, doesn't mean nobody else will want that feature on their MP3 player.
But that's the thing with Apple fanboys like yourself. Unless everyone else is blindly following you and blowing their money on a product with less features and less battery life, their all "apple bashers".
So yeah....that's funny and I am having the last laugh all the way to the bank with an extra 80 bucks in my pocket.

All you have to do is look at the Macbooks. Again, a product with less than half the features that is severely limited in the amount of programs it can run than a comparable PC laptop, but at more than double the price. Again....you're paying for a "name" and not getting your money's worth. Nobody here "hates" Apple, we're just smarter consumers that's all.

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How true! How true!
Jan 19, 2009 5:11AM PST

Spoken brilliantly. I could not agree more.

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MP3 Players ....
Dec 5, 2008 12:13PM PST

Is that $100 to $200 total or per player? Either way it may be a lot more than you need to spend.

Yes, there are a ton of MP3 players. Prices range from $10 or so up to several hundred dollars for an iPod touch or a player based on a hard drive rather than flash memory (which, by the way, I would AVOID LIKE THE PLAGUE (regardless of brand)). Most modern MP3 players use flash memory, but a few (very expensive models) use actual hard drives. Hard drives have tremendous capacity, but they use a lot of power, they are F-R-A-G-I-L-E and in my mind they no longer belong in MP3 players at all. So that is the first consideration, but there are very few hard drive based players still around and they are very expensive, so they would probably rule themselves out anyway.

Here are some more criteria to consider:

Memory size: If you get a flash based player, how much memory do you need? The choice here is from about 1 Gigabyte to 8 or more Gigibytes. One gigabyte will hold about 300 to 500 songs, give or take. In truth, if the player is being used ONLY for music, 1GB is enough for most people, but in today's world .... more is better and the incremental cost of another gigabyte or two is only $5 to $20.

Memory expandability: SOME players (very few, actually, but some) have a memory card slot for adding memory just by plugging in a digital camera flash memory card.

Video Support: Notice that in the previous paragraph I said "if the player is being used only for music" ..... well, many people put not only music (MP3's) but also video on their MP3 players. Not all MP3 players support this, but a lot of them do once you get above the low-end products. Do you want this? [You probably do]. Be aware that once you start supporting video, your memory requirements and the need for a far fancier interface and display go way up. But, in today's world, the cost can still be surprisingly reasonable.

Display screen: Some low-end MP3 players have only a very simple display screen (black and white, mostly just a line or two of text ... not much more of a display than a wristwatch), while more advanced units have full-color screens varying from just over an inch to as much as 4" or more. Obviously, if you are going to buy a unit that supports playing video, it MUST have a full color screen.

Battery type: There are 4 basic options for the type of battery used, and in my mind this is an important characteristic. Some players use standard AA or AAA batteries (either disposable or rechargeable) (this is actually good, but it makes the players BIG). Some players use proprietary, model specific lithium rechargeable batteries that are user replaceable. Some players use proprietary, model specific lithium rechargeable batteries and when the batteries die (and they WILL die, in 6 months to about 3 years or so) you have to send the player back to the manufacturer to have them replaced (and, in some cases, YOU WILL LOSE YOUR STORED MUSIC WHEN THE BATTERY IS REPLACED). And, finally (this one is incredible but true) some players use proprietary, model specific lithium rechargeable batteries and when the batteries die you are expected to throw out the entire MP3 player and buy a new one; there is NO battery replacement available at all.

Other functions: Many MP3 players have built in FM stereo radios as well (SOME of them can also make recordings, in the device, of whatever is currently being broadcast on the radio). Many MP3 players have a built-in voice recorder. Many MP3 players can also store and display, in addition to music and video, still photos. Some MP3 players have built in or optional games (Tetris, Pac-Man, etc.)

Music Service and Music Format compatability: Players vary widely in how you get music into them, and in how they dowload and play music files that are not MP3 files but rather some other format that contains "DRM" ("digital rights management", aka copy protection). For example, the iPod line, while it will work in some other ways, normally expects you to install "iTunes" on your computer and it's primary intended music format is not MP3 (which, however, it WILL play) but rather Apple's "AAC" format that has DRM. Other players similarly are linked to other Music services such as, for example, "Rhapsody". But it's nice to have a player that does not require the use of either ANY software or ANY music service, that just looks like a "disk drive" (in "My Computer") when you connect it and you put music onto it by just using "drag and drop" from your computer in "My Computer" or Windows Explorer (this is sometimes called "MSC" mode). Another kind of generic option is players that use Windows Media player as a "generic" music management program (Microsofts intent was to support DRM-enabled WMA files, but it works with non-DRM MP3 files also), this mode is called "MTP" mode.

Let me first mention the one reason why, while it's not my favorite MP3 player, you possibly should get an iPod (the overall brand name for all of the MP3 players made by Apple computer): Accessory availability. There are a ton of iPod accessories, and very few for any other models.

Now, having said all of that, a specific recommendation:

I've been working with MP3s for over a decade, and I have to tell you that my favorite MP3 player is the Sandisk Sansa e200 series (available in 4 memory sizes from 2GB to 8GB as the e250 to e280 models). This is a wonderful player, in my opinion it has the best features of every single charateristic that I described above. It plays Music, Video, still photos, it has an FM Radio (which it can record), a voice recorder, it has both MSC and MTP modes, it has a user replaceable battery and it has a memory card memory expansion slot.

Now for the bad news: The e200's are discontinued !! They have been replaced by the Sandisk Sansa Clip (no video support), Fuze (nearly an exact replacement for the e200) and View (optimized for video, has a larger display screen). But I don't like these as well as the e200 series (really, the e250(2GB), e260(4GB), e270(6GB) and the e280(8GB)) becuase when their batteries die, you are expected to throw out the entire player and get a new one ... incredibly, there is NO battery replacement for these newer players, PERIOD.]

[Just as an aside, on my e260 (4GB), I have 404 songs, 3 short videos (2 are "American Idol" performances that I taped on a VCR and then put on the computer) and 172 still photos .... all in about 800MB (0.8GB). The player is less than 25% full (in fact, all of this would fit on a 2GB e250 and even it would still be more than half empty).]

But hark [the Herald Angels Sing]!! All is not lost.

There are a LOT of "refurbished" e200's available and they are CHEAP !!! I mean, generally, $25 for the e250's up to $49 for the e280's. Keep in mind, these are fantastic, high-end players .... a "new" e280, if you can find one (and you probably still can, if you look) is $199 to $249, but you can get a perfectly good "refurbished" one for about $49. And they are WIDELY available. What's more, it is reported that these "refurb" units actually ARE new (e.g. no one else ever owned them). Reportedly, they are actually not "refurbished" but rather "overstock" units that were left over when the Clip, Fuze and View replaced the e200's (I can't verify this ... but I've bought 4 of these, and this information LOOKS accurate based on the condition of the players I received).

If you are interested in an e200, you can get them on E-Bay (of course, you can get ANYTHING on E-Bay) but also at BUY.COM, TIGERDIRECT.COM, COMPUSA.COM, NEWEGG.COM and AMAZON.COM, although they often (VERY often) sell out, disappear and later reappear again; availablity is sporatic. [If you are familiar with Woot.com, they also often have them about once a month.] The e250 through e280 models are absolutely identical except for the amount of memory that they have. Note that the "refurbished" models do say "refurbished" on their backs (while it looks engraved, the raised letters are actually adhesive stickers that can (with difficulty) be removed). Also, the "refurbished" models do not come with all of the accessories that a new, retail packaged model came with, but they do come with the essentials (but note that you will have to download the manual (as a PDF file) and the video/photo transfer program from the Sandisk Sansa web site). Do be sure that there is some warranty with the player that you get, because there have been a number of problems with the headphone jacks of some units having been poorly installed and not working reliably.

I hope that this has been helpful. A trip to any large electronics retailer will likely let you see probably dozens of models of MP3 players on display that you can examine and ask questions about (you generally won't find an e200, but they are similar to the Fuze models). I do think that an MP3 player will make a truly excellent gift for any teenager (or Adult!! ... get one for yourself) who does not have one, and it's not necessary to spend a lot of money on this to have a truly great item.

Hope that this helps.
Barry Watzman

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One comment ....
Dec 12, 2008 11:50AM PST

Newegg had a bunch of NEW e260's (4GB) this week for $45. As the e200 series is a discontinued model, you don't usually find these "new", they are usually "refurbished" (although it appears that many of the "refurbs" are really never-sold new end of production overstocks). Whatever, I'm not sure if they are still available or not, but they were available for much of the week.

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Clueless about MP3 players, need help!
Dec 12, 2008 1:06PM PST
http://forums.cnet.com/profile/Watzman/

For Barry Watzman
This is exactly what you wrote:

Yes, there are a ton of MP3 players. Prices range from $10 or so up to several hundred dollars for an iPod touch or a player based on a hard drive rather than flash memory (which, by the way, I would AVOID LIKE THE PLAGUE (regardless of brand)).

This is exactly what you wrote, and as such, you have (by proximity) recommended avoiding the Flash Drive, when in fact, I believe that you meant avoid the Hard Drive.

You'd better clarify this or someone will rush off and buy the wrong type.

RonW
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MP3 Players -- I Faced the Same Dilemma, Researched, Decided
Dec 12, 2008 7:57PM PST

Barry Watzman's response to the "which MP3" question was quite good. It was thorough and hit the right points. I purchased four (4) MP3 players for my family awhile back after doing a lot of research (internet, store, owners, etc.). Our decision criteria:

Applications:
1.) Mostly for MP3 music listening without excessive digital rights (DRM -- ie., when you "have" to buy music from one source or it confuses the machine) and proprietary hardware/software configurations that "lock you into their view of the world" and limited options. Basically, an open architecture that allows you to do what you want to do. Proprietary often limits the ability to mix and match.
2.) Secondarily for small video (not full length movies).
3.) Thirdly, voice recording, FM radio listening and ability to record the FM radio signal.
Hardware/Software:
1.) Durabilty (as reported by countless users and reviews).
2.) Ease of use (scroll wheel, menus, etc.).
3.) Software (also called "firmware") that was upgradeable to keep the machine current with fixes and evolution, to the extent possible.
4.) Ease of adding and deleting music playlists and individual songs.
5.) Cost $100 or less per unit.
6.) Accessories availability such as portable speakers, playback/charging units, car chargers, home chargers, etc.
7.) Rechargeable batteries that can be replaced. Mr. Watzman was dead on here. Even rechargeable batteries go bad.
8.) Memory (storage) size and EXPANDABILITY. MP3 music can be recorded at various levels of quality such as 128, 256, 192, 320 bit rates. The higher the number, the better the sound quality AND the larger the resulting file. For headphones 128 and 256 is usually OK for most people and files are smaller so more can fit on the machine. If you want to play the MP3 music through bigger speakers for more listening experience, the 320 bitrate is OK--not CD quality, but pretty good.
9.) An some other incidental attributes.

Final decision after researching every player around relative to our criteria:
Sandisk Sansa E250 -- 2 gig memory expandable with a standard 2 gig memory card. It met all the criteria including price point. We have been very happy with them since last Christmas.

Sidenote on getting music onto them--after trying to organize and load the music using Microsoft's MediaPlayer, we ended up purchasing a copy of MediaMonkey which seemed to be a lot easier to use and more flexible over the long run (it cost $35 for a lifetime version so is upgraded periodically for free). A great little tool to maintain the flow of good music.

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Addendum to Which MP3 Player -- The Music Part
Dec 12, 2008 8:18PM PST

Just adding a thought to my prior response...Happy
After having the music player and music management software for the computer (music file format conversion, library, loading music, etc.), one important issue is where to get the music:

After using several sites to purchase both MP3 and CD music, Amazon.com MP3 music store has a great selection, is competitively priced, and reliable. Also, they do not use a cumbersome proprietary model that forces you to put lots of extra software on your machine. Basically, pay, download to your computer, archive/save it is a good idea, and copy/transfer to the MP3 player.

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free music
Dec 12, 2008 8:34PM PST

I've had my latest MP3 player for a little over a year now and I haven't purchased a single song for it. I used to use Urge and Rhapsody (urge was recently bought out by Rhapsody) and they were both great places to obtain music. But since I bought my Zen, I've been using Spiralfrog.com and Limewire.com. Both free and completely legal download sites. Why pay .99 cents a song (average cost) when you can get the majority of your music for free? Granted there are some artists you can't obtain, but you'd be surprised at all the songs you can get. I've currently got just under 800 songs and about 30 music videos and snowboarding videos and they were all free.
Stop paying for music unless you absolutely have to.

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MP3 Players -- I Faced the Same Dilemma, Researched, Decided
Dec 29, 2008 7:53PM PST

Good info! Just let others know that 128kbit/s USED to be the standard bit rate. The reason why it was replaced by 192 kbit/s is
because the bass quality could sometimes be obvious. (according to
Wikipedia) 192 kbit/s ...Wikipedia states that "differences can be heard by few people". Therefore, 128 may save memory space, but at a cost of poor bass quality that can often be obvious. Who wants to hear that? The standard bit rate from 128 to 192 was switched for very good reason. Anyone who can hear the difference between a bit rate of 192 and 320 would have to have hearing close to that of the bionic woman. Remember Lyndsey Wagner? She had the bionic hearing ability. Anyway, I'm 44...not 54 or 64...whether that matters or not.

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Disagree With You Watzman
Dec 12, 2008 8:09PM PST

I have been a techie for over 20 years and REFUSED to buy anything Apple. I even left a job when the company went to grey-market Macintosh hardware and software.

But I am a huge fan of the Ipod Classic that I have for a year.

Granted, my needs are totally different than Louise T. But some of your stuff makes no sense.

If you actually want a high-quality rip of some good music, you will find that file sizes get quite large and will fill your flash-based player quickly. Then what about the odd video? My needs are for a device that will hold a couple of hundred CDs. Classic is fantastic for it. True, I would love a replaceable battery, but you can't have everything.

And comparing the Sansa interfaces to the Ipod is ridiculous. Then the software on your PC, the 6 audio players I tried do not come near ITunes.

Just out of curiosity, how come you never see ANY player with

1. Balance controls
2. Bass or treble controls
3. An AM radio (sports and news stations would be helpful)

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Go Zen!
Dec 12, 2008 8:41PM PST

The Zen player has a graphic equalizer. It's got I think 12 preset balance levels for pop, rock, jazz, etc. and it's also got a 7 band eq and a bass control so you can customize your sound for the type of music you're listening to.
This is what I've been trying to tell all the Apple people who are so dead set on Apple just because it's an Apple. The Zen and many other players out there have so many more features than the Ipods and at half the cost.

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True, Sansa Does Have Grapghic Equalizer
Dec 12, 2008 9:19PM PST

But no balance. I still think for my purposes the large hard drive trumps that lack of the GE.

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different brands
Dec 12, 2008 10:00PM PST

The Sansa and the Creative Zen are two completely different brands. If you're looking for more "thump" you can adjust the graphic eq and turn on the "extra bass" and you'll get plenty of bass. Another option is to buy some real quality headphones. Either over the ear or in the ear. There are numerous brands out there ranging from 20 bucks to over 400 bucks for the higer end brands. I really liked the sound quality from the earphones that came with the Zen, but I didn't really like the way they fit in my ear. I use my Zen when I work out and when I snowboard and I needed something with a more secure fit. I found that I was constantly adjusting them and when doing these activities and it was rather annoying so I purchased some Denon "in the ear" headphones for around 50 bucks from Best Buy and their awesome. The sound quality is much better: higher highs and deeper bass, plus the stay in my ear which was the most important feature i was looking for. However, for normal travel on the plane they worked just fine.

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another use for mp3 players that affects choice
Dec 12, 2008 10:33PM PST

hi, everyone.
great thread.
but i haven't seen a reference to recorded books.
a lot of folks use their mp3 players to listen to books... that they download for free off the web.
and apple mp3 players can't do this. they chose to be incompatible with the recorded books' specs.

just something else to keep in mind....

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Creative ZEN
Dec 12, 2008 11:16PM PST

You can download Audiobooks onto the Creative Zen. They will even give you one free audiobook through Amazon just for signing up.

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many different formats with the Zen
Dec 13, 2008 12:02AM PST

That's just another of the many reasons to choose the Zen over the Ipod. The Zen is compatible with way more audio and video formats than the Ipod is.
Audio Playback Format: MP3, WMA, non-protected AAC, WAV and Audible 2,3 and 4
Photo Format: JPEG, GIF, TIFF, PNG and BMP
Video Playback Format: MJPEG, MPEG1 and 2, MPEG4-SP, DivX 4 and 5, XviD & WMV9

As well as these:
Organizer: Syncs with and views Microsoft Outlook

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Beg to Differ
Dec 13, 2008 1:41AM PST

You can and I do download pictures and use them for wallpaper on the iPod touch. I have over 2000 pics on my iPod. Thought I would clear up any misconceptions.