General discussion

Can we stop these kinds of shootings?

Toddler struck by stray bullet in her home

Fortunately she will survive. This kind of thing goes on daily and more innocent people are killed this way then by raving maniacs on a suicide mission. These innocents are usually victims of established criminals. They don't follow the rules about acquiring weapons, safety training, etc. Not all pay for their own guns and many who do pay for them stole the money to do so. Why not focus first on these people rather than be distracted by high profile events? Maybe it's because we've not been able to stop criminals so we go after the law biding instead.
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Just have the death penality for anyone that

engages in a shoot out that can't prove self defense.

Help with the drug problem too probably.

Oh and since we don't have enough jail space to hold them during appeals, no appeals.

In fact, why not have the death penality for anyone that commits a crime with a firearm or other deadly weapon? armed robbery, assault with any weapon, careless and reckless vehicular manslaugher, etc. Hang them out back immediately after the conviction, no return to holding even.

Should help cut the welfare rolls too.

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That's a reactive solution

I would prefer to see this approached from a preventive standpoint. That toddler might not have been shot at all with a more proactive approach to this problem.

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A proactive approach? Can you give specific ways

this could have been prevented by being proactive? Maybe the parents could move the TV to an inner room or away from the street side of the house? Maybe they could teach the child to recognize the sound of gunfire and jump into a bathtub when they hear it? Maybe they could move to a safer neighborhood? I'm not finding a good way to avoid accidentally being hit by a stray bullet once the shooting begins. The best way would be to disarm criminals but I've not a clue how to do that.

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the ones who need protection the most
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So the answer is to live in a fort, to restrict your

freedom for your safety.

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same thing could be said

for mowing one's yard.

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That's one facet of what's known as gun control

People have been frightened by the NRA into thinking the term means "take our guns away." Gun control means many things. One reason gun laws have worked so well in Switzerland is that in order to get one, you have to undergo rigorous weapons training as well as submit to physical and psychological testing.

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Probably not if they worship the Devil.
Adam Lanza's Devil Worship Page

I do think there's a difference between collateral damage due to gang type wars, maybe over drugs or being "dissed" or other matters, and those odd suicide murder events like recently experienced in Newtown.

In another thread it was mentioned maybe for fame or infamy these suicide killers do their deeds, but I've been thinking on it some and don't really see how that fits. If it was true they'd want to stay around, maybe like the Holmes "Batman" shooter. There's some other motivation driving those who also suicide after their murders, especially those who suicide immediately after, indicating no time to lay it off on overpowering remorse.
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I've heard it was those that linked suicide and fame to

together to proving they were important and to get back at someone. The you'll be sorry when I'm gone type of thing, but wanting to make it a bigger deal.

Who knows.

While the suicides can be regarded beneficial to society in their way, you don't get to analyze the shooter. Too often thought if they don't suicide, they end up in mental care for a while, then release and then some commit more crime and/or atrocities.

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Ask yourself honestly

Would you have preferred it ended with the shooter alive? The news programs, the legal profession, the mental health profession, and probably a lot of others probably would have preferred that. Not me. I'm glad we won't have weeks, maybe months on end of reporting on such trial, and all the craziness that would breakout around the event. It also would have interfered with paying more attention to the grieving, the parents, the slain children, just another instance where the perp gets more attention he might have craved than the victims. In fact, by killing himself he accomplished much what Josh wanted, which is if you can't keep his name from becoming known, at least he won't be the center of attention for a long time on TV, the internet, and other places that might play to his ego, or maniacal desires for attention, if he had those. It also helps the families find closure quicker, not having the gut grinding knowledge that he lives and gets all the legal attention while their child is gone, buried. I'm glad we don't have to spend the funds, time and effort to convict and house him. I wish they'd all kill themselves after doing something like this.

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Thought my last comment indicated the dubiousness

of that being good. And I'd definately prefer they commit suicide rather than kill or even wound several poice officers or bystanders in an OK Corral shootout.

It saves society costs, both monetary and otherwise for sure. And the risk of future release and even later more trouble is real. I wonder if the parents are relieved he committed suicide or want to know why he did it, no matter how twisted his mind is.

Of course, if your faith believes in redemption, shouldn't they be given a chance to save their soul by asking for redemption if they're "cured"?

No, such people if not dead should never be free again. If they do actually get better, they can be given jobs within confinement to help the system handle others like themselves.

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Where is Adam Lanza?
"Of course, if your faith believes in redemption, shouldn't they be given a chance to save their soul by asking for redemption if they're "cured"?"

Not everything is known, God judges, although the apostles indicated they would have power of judgement too. The penalty for murder is death in Bible. There is no direct command concerning suicide. Some look on suicide as rejection of God's gift of life, or a lack of faith.

So, what happens when murder is done followed by the suicide of the perpetrator. He paid the penalty for murder, but was there any repentance?

Catholics believe in a purgatory, although such term is nowhere in the scriptures. There's a mention of something like that in an apocryphal conversation between Peter and an early Christian (Barnabas?) and in it Peter says to teach such, even if true, would give some a reason to be less devoted to Christ in this world. Christ himself made an allusion some believe when talking about those tossed into a prison to be released, and in his day at his ressurection those in prison being released from Sheol or Hades. Christ also spoke of Abraham, Lazarus and a rich man, one in a safe place with Abraham, the other in a bad place of torment but able to call out across a great divide and communicate to Abraham. There it was a chasm, but think of a wall, where a good life under good rules is enjoyed on one side, but the other side is a people or nation living under oppression in poverty. Places like that exist even today in our world, although maybe not to the same extent as Hades vs the good place of rest.

Such concept would explain the two judgement conundrum, which is if there's a judgement for each person after death, then why an all encompassing Judgement Day later on when a final determination from the Book of Life is made? There are OT passages about a "pit" and armies which have gone down into the pit to lie there, and to welcome others who descend to the pit for deadly crimes they've committed.

Can a crazy person be absolved at the point of his death for what he just did where there is no time for repentance, or will he do penance in another place till a final judgement? I don't worry about such matters, but I guess if I was related to the person, or someone that was or had been a friend the question might bother me.

Truth is, only God can say for sure and we can only judge in this world those who have done such deeds in regard to the flesh. Once it's beyond the judgement of the flesh for crimes done, it's all out of our hands anyway. As Christ said, "fear not Him who can destroy the flesh, but fear Him who can cast both body and soul into Hades".

What I do know of Adam Lanza is he claimed to worship the Devil and now he's dead. It's quite possible he's with the one he worshipped now.
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My impression is that suicide to some is

the ultimate sin.

You commit murder and die without a chance to repent, therefore only damnation can result.

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What will Jesus do with those crazy ones?

Here's an example of His most likely approach.

Mark 5:1-20

New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Restores a Demon-Possessed Man

5 They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes.[a] 2 When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an impure spirit came from the tombs to meet him. 3 This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain. 4 For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. 5 Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.

6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. 7 He shouted at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God's name don't torture me!" 8 For Jesus had said to him, "Come out of this man, you impure spirit!"

9 Then Jesus asked him, "What is your name?"

"My name is Legion," he replied, "for we are many." 10 And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.

11 A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12 The demons begged Jesus, "Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them." 13 He gave them permission, and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.

14 Those tending the pigs ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened. 15 When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. 16 Those who had seen it told the people what had happened to the demon-possessed man—and told about the pigs as well. 17 Then the people began to plead with Jesus to leave their region.

18 As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go with him. 19 Jesus did not let him, but said, "Go home to your own people and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you." 20 So the man went away and began to tell in the Decapolis how much Jesus had done for him. And all the people were amazed.

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(NT) Suicide doesn't allow that
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I wasn't applying it to only the living

but what His approach might be for someone who was mentally/emotionally impaired during this life, following their death.

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Maybe suicide is out of fear

Can you imagine the hell he would be going through in jail with career criminals that know what he did. The alternative would be isolation which might be worse.

Either alternative wouldn't bother me.


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