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Question

Can the Bible be trusted???

Mar 15, 2018 2:47AM PDT

1Ki 7:23. The large wash water basin outside Solomon's Temple was 10 cubits in diameter and 30 cubits in circumference.
π = C / d
so, in the Bible, π = 3.00.
Is not Jehovah smarter than a fifth grader???

Discussion is locked

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Clarification Request
Hint:
Mar 15, 2018 9:06AM PDT

Some Bibles call it the "molten sea" because it was made of cast [?] metal and was very large.

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Clarification Request
"round all about"
Mar 15, 2018 10:57AM PDT

doesn't necessarily mean "a perfect circle". It may have been a bit oval. I've never seen the word "oval" in any bible translation, yet. The 10 cubits may have just been measured across the longest area between it's rim.

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Answer
Perhaps
Mar 15, 2018 3:45AM PDT

the decimal point hadn't be "invented"?

WE "round down" to 3.14?..THEY "rounded down" to 3?

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(NT) You're not far off.
Mar 15, 2018 9:06AM PDT
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Answer
Had to be a rough guestimate
Mar 15, 2018 4:54AM PDT

The height of a horse is measured in "hands" but whose hand? I could guess that Solomon didn't do his own measurements but commissioned his lady friends to do it. One walked inside of the basin and other other walked the circumference. Each would have a different length to their step. That's my 'splanation, Lucy.

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(NT) You gonna burn!!!
Mar 15, 2018 9:07AM PDT
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All of this consternation could have been avoided
Mar 15, 2018 9:42AM PDT

if he'd just made it a square. Of course you've already heard the old joke that goes something like..

"He, Billy. My son came home home from from that new school today and said something about "pie are square". I'm takin' him out of that school because everyone should know that pie are round. It's cornbread that are square. Happy

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Good one.
Mar 15, 2018 10:44AM PDT

Better than the version I put on a science site. I will now adopt it and take credit for it.

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Answer
Re: pi
Mar 15, 2018 5:19AM PDT

As literature,
"And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about."
reads better than
"And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty one cubits did compass it round about"
and certainly than
"And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty one dot four cubits did compass it round about"
or
"And he made a molten sea, nine and a half cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about."

It's meant to impress the reader with what a wonderful water basin it was, not as an exact architectural description.

By the way, https://www.exploratorium.edu/pi/history-of-pi shows that the value of pi was rather well known in that time.

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Good catch about pi, Kees.
Mar 15, 2018 9:04AM PDT

"The Greeks" knew the round earth when Isaiah wrote of it [Isa 40:22]. In quotes because the late Philip Morrison estimated that 'about nine of them' knew it, all top geometers. They even had a good idea of its circumference, using π. Didn't do the populace any good because their lives were still circumscribed [!] by their mythology. Point: Isaiah was a priest in his day job, not a scientist. Even more, 40:26 implies a knowledge of the inverse of Einstein's E=mc^2.
Job, another non-scientist, writing long before Isaiah, didn't know of Newton's gravity when he wrote Job 26:7b, when the rest of the world was inventing mythical animals to 'hold up the earth'. The first clause, although poetic, matches well with the latest and greatest scientific view of the universe; cf. Isa 40:22; "like a fine gauze". And, we could take "stretching out the heavens" to mean the expansion going on. There's more, but Lee is running out of server space.
In fact, there's no scriptural answer to my question, but it's answerable by reasoning and common sense, IMO. Keep trying.

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P.S. Little or no communication between Israel
Mar 15, 2018 9:09AM PDT

and Greece back then. Certainly no science seminars.

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Answer
Imagine having to build such a thing without
Mar 15, 2018 10:07PM PDT

CAD or even a decently ruled tape. Why not start with a rope laid out in a circle, size of which will produce a big basin? Form a circle with wood to that size [current technology], build your mold from there. Metal circles and bowls existed. The initial rope was 30 cubits, the diameter would measure ~ 10 cubits, exact measure not important. [Same with the diameter.] It's important to note that Jehovah sometimes ordered things to spec, but not here. 'Build it and store your wash water in it. You'll need plenty.' It's big enough that some later religious folks tried to see arcane meanings in it. Not required, it's rarely mentioned again. The description, written after the fact, is adequate. We know it existed and had purpose.
Ipse dixit Dougie.

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Forgot this.
Mar 15, 2018 10:14PM PDT

Philip Morrison wrote on the wheelwrights of England in the last couple of centuries. Most were illiterate and innumerate, yet they often built to size spec, which Solomon didn't have to do. At some point one started with a scheme like the rope, then built up a collection of models and **** for future orders. Their wheels existed [exist] and have purpose. Press them for measurements and you might have got an answer like 30 and 10.

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**** = fixtures that can be reused to set up similar pieces.
Mar 15, 2018 10:16PM PDT

All watched over by software of loving grace. Happy

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Answer
In what way?
Mar 16, 2018 12:24PM PDT

And *which* fifth grader? A random one or Goethe ? Those kids can sometimes "clean one's clock" as they used to say.... :^)

Rick

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It's said that when Gauss was three he corrected
Mar 16, 2018 12:30PM PDT

his Father's arithmetic while Dad was doing his firm's books.

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That's funny
Mar 16, 2018 12:56PM PDT

I wonder if Dad upped his 'allowance' (if any) after the demonstration!

Reminds me of my sister correcting her French teacher's pronunciation in 7th grade. (She had learned the language very early, almost as a 'first' language when we lived in Tripoli as tykes). The said teacher was a Texan with a strong twang and was great at everything but the pronunciation and so V. (my sister) was just trying to help - or so she claims - but the teacher naturally was _not_ happy having a smart-aleck in class. :^)

Rick

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Yeah, that's sad, about the teacher.
Mar 16, 2018 4:34PM PDT

Also, your sis might have been out of line, if an adult in a college class, say. Tripoli and Montreal and Marseille French are pronounced differently from each other, and Tripoli isn't French, although left over from strong francophone influence in N. Africa.

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Yeppers
Mar 16, 2018 4:58PM PDT

I agree, though if you had ever heard this particular teacher you would no doubt remark that *any* dialect was preferable. Think of the many US military leaders who insisted on pronouncing Iran and Iraq with a hard I as in Eye-ran or Eye-wrack. Some still do and as a Texan I hear it in everyday speech on a regular basis. And don't get me started on the elder President Bush's take on Saddam Hussein (!) - though said to be intentional it always seemed less than Presidential to me - though in many ways I respect G.H.W. Bush which is perhaps why
I think it was 'beneath him' to do so.

Rick

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"I rock, I ran"; context.
Mar 17, 2018 6:05PM PDT

Stevie Wonder

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The elder Bush entitled to talk. He served.
Mar 17, 2018 9:41PM PDT

The younger Bush used to get flak from journalists for various things. I imagine they liked to exchange stories in NY saloons instead of heading home to their wives. Only, Bush had an alcohol problem for many years, and just quit. For wife or church doesn't matter; he did it. Never got credit for it.
Maybe that's why the Bible counsels against badmouthing the leader. Ec 10:20

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(NT) Allowance
Mar 16, 2018 4:35PM PDT
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Stupid phone.
Mar 16, 2018 4:42PM PDT

I read the anecdote in E.T. Bell's Men of Mathematics. Bell wasn't the great scholar he thought he was, but was generally reliable. I think he added that young Gauss was indeed given a proofreading task as a result.
When Bell worked in journalism he was known to review his own books favorably, under a pseudonym.
Worth checking; I recommend the book. Poor Galois.

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Answer
Full disclosure.
Mar 16, 2018 4:53PM PDT

The topic came up elsewhere because of π day. I opened it here to illustrate that 'Bible contradictions' can often be discarded through common sense, which in turn means taking the stories as factual, about real people; "men like us", as the bible says.
Side example: Chronology is very important to a Bible student - whether believer or atheist - and one passage in the History books says, "Now, Saul was _____ years old when he became king". A lacuna in every known copy.
First, let's run around screaming, "Oh, no! Bible not literally reliable!"
Then, let's calm down and realize it doesn't matter. We don't need that particular number to support any theological point.
In fact, the major problem of chronology with un- or semi-believers is getting past the prophecies that are 'too accurate to be true'. Not, of course, my problem. Happy

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many so-called contradictions aren't really.
Mar 16, 2018 5:17PM PDT

Acts 9:7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

versus

Acts 22:7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus;

Perhaps this gives the correct understanding from NIV.

Acts 22:6 “About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, ‘Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?’ “ ‘Who are you, Lord?’ I asked. “ ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,’ he replied. 9My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me. “ ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ I asked. “ ‘Get up,’ the Lord said, ‘and go into Damascus.

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(NT) Good call.
Mar 16, 2018 8:15PM PDT
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Vine's first entry at the verb hear is akouo,
Mar 16, 2018 9:59PM PDT

which it says at Acts 9 is "hearing a sound", while same word, different case, is "understanding a sound"., at 22. .We could get that from the context and common sense, but it's better to have confirmation from the bigshots.
Acts 22:9 NWT is "they did not hear the voice".
NIV has "understand", which is closer to Vine's recommendation of the same base word. Wilson's Diaglott* has a variant of akouo. In 1869 he chose heard as translation; in our 1942 edition we chose understood. [Our edition includes both.] Go figure. Happy Our own Kingdom Interlinear, 1985, uses hear(d) throughout.
The NIV at 22:9 is thus closer to what most would take as the intended meaning, but by substituting rather than translating. That is the eternal conundrum of the translator. Works here, in any case.
But wait! At Acts 26:14 the same person, Paul, given by the same amanuensis, Luke, says they ALL fell down!
Thomas Newberry, in his Englishman's Bible at 22:9, also 1869, gives heard in the text and "or understood not" in the margin.
Another common misunderstanding comes from lack of knowledge of Bible manuscripts themselves. The NT was originally written in the Greek of the time and for many years after. The script was called uncial. This meant a script with very few spaces between words or between paragraphs, as we now call them, and with no punctuation. Any modern translation will thus be capitalized and punctuated according to the translator's personal choice. That can be literary or theological or a combination.
Consider Lu 23:43, w/o punctuation. "[Jesus said] truly I tell you today you will be with me in Paradise."
This can be taken two ways. A comma can clear up the ambiguity, but there are two choices for that, just before or immediately after "today". The choices are mutually exclusive, as one can see by rewriting both ways. [This is acknowledged by Lynne Truss, in her [non-religious] book, Eats, Shoots & Leaves.]
If we decide by looking only at the verse with a show of hands, virtually all have "you, today". Majority wins.
Until we look for clues in the rest of the Bible.
The thief could not have gone anywhere with Jesus that day [Saturday], because Jesus was in the grave for parts of three days. This is established by the Gospel accounts, and is in line with the "sign of Jonah" that Jesus himself gave, at Mt 12:39,40. [Luke gave a different sign to the "wicked generation", from the same book, at 11:29,30,32.]
Furthermore, Jesus did not ascend into heaven until the 40th day of his resurrection.
At the same time, the thief was not traveling at all, because he was in the grave, where "the dead know [and do] nothing". Ec 9:5,6,10.
Finally, as Paul explains in ch. 9 & 10 and 1Cor 15, Jesus had to enter heaven first, to open it up for mankind. Anyone who died before that remains dead until the resurrection of "the last day". John 6:39,40,44,54; 11:24.
So the correct idea is conveyed by "I tell you this today [right now, as a reward for your faith] [comma] you will be with me [someday] in Paradise."
How did so many translators miss this reasoning? They had no need for it. Long before the KJV, people believed that all good people would go to heaven and all bad ones would go to Hell, and the transfer would take place immediately. Augustine and the great Jerome ignored the plain import of Gen 1:28. Their writings still influence Catholic and other mainstream thought.
Only by understanding Jehovah's purpose for mankind, and that it was unchanging, can we understand Lu 23 and many other passages.

*He worked before Russell. In 1942 the plates were bought and donated to WTB&TS. He and Newberry had access to the Vatican Ms. 1209, arguably the best.

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(NT) "uncial" also means in all capital letters.
Mar 16, 2018 10:01PM PDT
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there are different words translated "hell"
Mar 16, 2018 11:30PM PDT

One word, "Sheol" simply means the place of the dead. In Jesus tale about the rich man and Lazarus, the poor beggar, we see both the righteous and the wicked in the same place but with a "great divide" between them. The righteous were obviously in a good place, but the rich man across the divide was in a bad place where there was no water and he was in torment. We also read that while Jesus was in Sheol, he "took captivity captive", meaning he took many, maybe all, out of Sheol, including those who had refused to repent during the days of Noah prior to The Flood. Where is "Paradise"? Probably where Abraham and the beggar Lazarus were at that time. As for the ascension, that happened AFTER he returned to his body. What was it he didn't want the woman who first saw him not to do? Touch his body. Later when he met Thomas he insisted Thomas feel his wounds, then healed over. Obviously something had changed from the time of His resurrection and later when he appeared to "doubting" Thomas. It would seemhe'd made an ascension previous to Thomas, and before his final departure as related in Acts chapter one. I believe wherever he went while only in the spirit, is also where he took the spirit of the other man on the cross that had expressed faith in Jesus as they both were on the crosses. Where was that place? Seemingly some spiritual "Paradise" where the righteous were, at that time. Revelation 1:18 Jesus reveals he was then in possesion of the "keys to Sheol (Hell)". When did he take possession of them? It seems during the days he was out of the body, in the spirit, after his death of his physical body on the cross. So, whatever happened that Friday evening and night, I have no doubt the thief on the cross was with him too.

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worth a read about sheol aka hades
Mar 17, 2018 2:16PM PDT