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General discussion

Can Outsourcing Be Stopped?

Mar 9, 2004 10:06PM PST

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If you haven't turned on a TV or read a magazine or a newspaper recently, you probably haven't heard that your job is moving overseas.

Odds are, it's not, of course. But a growing number of jobs are, and many of them are higher-skilled jobs that once seemed immune to outsourcing.

U.S. companies moving jobs offshore has helped keep the job market in its most painful slump since World War II, creating tremendous worry for millions of workers and triggering a vigorous national debate about how best to respond.


http://money.cnn.com/2004/03/01/news/economy/outsourcing_solutions/index.htm

Discussion is locked

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I sure hope so
Mar 9, 2004 10:11PM PST

We're hoping to relocate this spring and I need to find a new job. My field is one that is affected by the outsourcing trend, and I'd hate to see our hopes dashed because of it.

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Re:I sure hope so
Mar 10, 2004 12:30AM PST

I hope so too Josh. I'm looking at it now as a sign of patriotism over money interest to stay put. Naive? Maybe but for all the talk of patriotism in our corporate world where is the action?

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Re: I sure hope so
Mar 10, 2004 2:15AM PST

Hi, Mary Kay.

Call me cynical, but I think patriotism is simply one of the ploys the Republican party uses to get average Americans to vote against their own interests. When it comes to putting their money where their mouth is, Republicans will mouth platitudes about "no regulation" and "free trade" and do nothing about, outsourcing, because it makes money for the rich and powerful who run that Party for their own further enrichment.

-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Re:Re: I sure hope so
Mar 10, 2004 3:42AM PST

Hi Dave, I was referring to the industry leaders. There is only so much the government can do. It's another instance of taking personal responsibility.

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Re: Industry leaders
Mar 10, 2004 5:08AM PST

Hi, MAry Kay.

Why should they care? They've been taught, in B-school and by the markets, that the only thing that matters is "maximizing shareholder value," i.e., this quarter's bottom line. Only society as a whole (via boycotts) or its agent (the government) can stop this trend.

-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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You mean people like the heads of Disney, ABC, CBS, NBC, Sony, Viacom. Microsoft, CNN, etc.
Mar 10, 2004 1:34PM PST

right? Lots of good, solid Democrats.

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Re:Re: Industry leaders
Mar 10, 2004 1:39PM PST
"society as a whole (via boycotts) "

Well that falls on those of us who can afford to do so to choose a "Made in the USA" product vs a "Made in China" (or Taiwan, Mexico, Korea, etc). I try to, although I admit sometimes for stuff I seldom use, particularly hand tools, it comes down to buying cheaper foreign or not buying at all.

"..or its agent (the government) can stop this trend."

But where the government does have to help with that is regulating and enforcing what a "Made in USA" tag means.

For the lower income and others, I have no problem with them buying the best price they can find.


RogerNC

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com
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Another Republican plot? Those people sure are clever aren't they?
Mar 10, 2004 5:39AM PST

My memory may be going, but it seems to me that Nafta came in during Clinton's administration. It also seems to me that the Democrats have a long history of free trade. I KNOW it takes longer than two and a half years to develop significant outsourcing. Pointing fingers and mouthing mantras about the 'rich' is not going to make it the Republican's fault. Both parties supported these policies. It looks to me like the 'rich' are more Democrat than Republican. Look at George Soros or Bill Gates to name just two.

As far as deregulation is concerned, what's that got to do with outsourcing? Deregulation has, so far, worked extremely well. Look at the explosion in telecommunication as a prime example. Airline tickets are now very affordable with lots more people flying, etc.

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Re:Another Republican plot? Those people sure are clever aren't they?
Mar 10, 2004 9:55AM PST

Hi, KP.

>>Deregulation has, so far, worked extremely well.<,
Depends where you look. You mentioned its best two examples -- airlines and telecomm. But ask folks in California and many other states what they think about energy deregulation. Of course, Republicans loved it, because it changed Gray Davis from being a frequently mentioned 2004 Presidential candidate into a oolitical disaster. And ask ANY cable TV subscriber what they think about that deregulation, which gave Viacom so much money out of cable customers' pocket that Viacom isn't just GOING to Disney World, they're trying to BUY it!

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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More smoke? The Democrats screwed up California with regulation, and I'm sure
Mar 10, 2004 1:51PM PST
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Just for the sake of information...
Mar 10, 2004 2:13PM PST

Just for the sake of information, Viacom gets 19% of it's revenue from their cable networks. TV is the biggie, at 30%.

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Re:Re: I sure hope so
Mar 10, 2004 11:04AM PST
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Re:Re: I sure hope so
Mar 10, 2004 12:28PM PST

"but I think patriotism is simply one of the ploys the Republican party uses to get average Americans to vote against their own interests. "

Isn't that kind of derogatory? it implies anyone that agrees with anything that might be associated with Republican party is lacking good judgement. Or at least anyone not "rich and powerful who run the Party".


RogerNC

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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It also says that patriotism is a Republican ploy, and average Americans are DUMB.
Mar 10, 2004 1:54PM PST

They vote against their own interests. The gospel according to the DNC.

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There you go, Kiddpeat...
Mar 10, 2004 2:55PM PST

There you go, Kiddpeat, that's why the continual attempts to invoke a feeling of class warfare with things like "the rich".
Remember that discussion about letting people chose to put some of their Social Security in stocks? Remember the "drill", the average person (read that inferior class) is not smart enough to handle it, while people who attended acadamies and later "big time" (read that in the North east) universities have the required ability to handle their own affairs.
Got it, according to them we "peons" are not smart enough, therefore the smarter "patrons" will handle it for us. Guess who will be the Patron in this happy little caste system.
Oh, can't be "inferior" people like somebody labeled "bubba" or "cowboy", they lack the "proper breeding". Don't think it's Republican or Democrat, a cowboy from one of those "inferior" Southern states is just as bad as a "peanut farmer" from another "inferior" southern state. Now, a wealthy guy from a "superior" north-eastern state is qualified.

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I'm not sure. I don't think government can stop it, but
Mar 10, 2004 2:06AM PST

I think it's very short sighted. If all the expertise moves overseas, the US would quickly become dependent on foreign countries for one of its greatest assets; technology. A lot of momentum for this has come from liberal institutions which have helped build the technology base in third world countries. I don't think conservatives have helped much either, so I don't think you can lay it at the door of either party.

I think many companies will learn that it's not as cheap as it first appeared to be. That will, however, take awhile. Meanwhile, I think many consumers are going to rebell very quickly if they have to deal directly with foreign personnel. I have found it difficult to converse with these people, and an apparent significant ignorance of the technology supported.

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"I have found it difficult to converse with these people"
Mar 10, 2004 2:33AM PST

.
Me too. Either by phone or email. I don't know which is worst. And you are right about their lack of knowledge of the product they support. When I can say I knew more about the product than the guy in email you know that the support is pretty bad! Wink

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Unfair Competition
Mar 10, 2004 2:32AM PST

I work for an Aerospace manufacturing company. We are already losing business to overseas companies due to cost factors. Our hourly burden (wages and benefits) runs $40 to $50. We are competing with companies in Poland whose rate equals $3 to $5. Last year we wrote a check for $2 million to our largest customer just to retain the business and they are demanding 5% price cuts yearly as a cost of doing business. How do you compete in this environment?

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That's the thing isn't it? ....
Mar 10, 2004 3:58AM PST

The entrepreneurs or large corporations who move work-force activities to cheaper labour areas is a great move for their pocket money and is undeniably also good in bringing the economic accelerator to those needy countries. The thing is that the entrepreneurs are taking no account of the long-term effects of their actions on the indigent country - and there's the rub.

How easy do you reckon it would be to turn them all into evironmentalists (meaning the "mud hut" theory)? Of course they already know the ramifications of their actions - so what is a person to do?

"Lost in Space"? I knew I should have paid more attention to those TV re-runs...

Regards
Mo

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Not much of a reward for hard work at college I would say
Mar 10, 2004 10:25AM PST
In January, for example, there were more unemployed workers 25 or older with college degrees than there were unemployed workers without high school diplomas, according to the latest Labor Department data.

From Rosalie's link

Just a further kick in the guts to see your job go overseas Sad
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Why should it?
Mar 10, 2004 10:58AM PST

One example of outsourcing that is taking hold is computer programming. Much of it is going to India. Why? Because it's good business.

The average skilled programmer in India makes around $11,000, more than 22 times the per capita annual income for India. For them it's an upper class job. To them it's also not a matter that they're doing the job dirt cheap and taking american jobs, it's simply making it to the upper end of the workforce in a country ridden with poverty. There's no way you can blame the programmers in India for accepting the jobs they're offered by their employers for the pay they're getting relative to the pay scales of their country.

A good programmer in the U.S. makes $60,000 plus. Many think they're worth $100,000 based on the wages they were earning during the Clinton years. Why should a client in the U.S. pay these prices when he/she can buy the same product for $11,000. That would obviously be bad business.

Some of you think that the government should step in and create some type of regulation or tariff to protect these american jobs. Imagine that you get your way and Acme Software is forced to use american programmers at $50,000 a year. How is Acme Software supposed to compete with Bombay Software which is marketing the same products using $11,000 programmers?

Technology has changed the world. Google has killed the World Book and Britannica encyclopedias of the world. PCs have killed the typewriter. Digital cameras have endangered the film inductry. Networking is just another technology that is changing the world we live in. Telecommuting has taken a whole new meaning.

Wired has a good article on the current and future trend of IT outsourcing at http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.02/india.html It's long, 7 pages, but I invite you to read it over and see if you still think the government should step in and try to regulate this global commodity on merely a national scale.



P.S.
I just lost my job of the last 4 years as a systems, network and database administrator. Like many I enjoyed the wave while it was good. When I got laid off though I didn't even look for another IT job. I've gone back to working on heavy equipment. Plenty of people that know my work still call on me for IT consulting on the side by my primary focus is lodged solidly in a job that can't be outsourced. I would advise others to do the same.

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Re:Why should it?
Mar 10, 2004 12:39PM PST

"I've gone back to working on heavy equipment. Plenty of people that know my work still call on me for IT consulting on the side by my primary focus is lodged solidly in a job that can't be outsourced. I would advise others to do the same."

Sorry, don't bet on it. Don't know what heavy equipment you work on, but if there's not work for it, there's not work for mechanics for it.

I'm in a papermill, lots of that coming out of China, and other Asian locations. If no papermill here, will severely reduce logging and all it's heavy equipment.

As American buying power goes down, less and less manufacturing here, less and less construction, less and less of everything here.

Outsourcing will affect all sectors one way or another. Some laugh at trickle down economics, but no one denies the bad trickles down.

Unfortunately, tariffs in one area may cost more jobs in a different field than they save in the first when someone else retaliates.

And besides, honestly, after a while, people burn out learning totally new fields. After a while your drug and alcohol abuse will go up because they're tired of struggling all the time and seeing nothing to look forward to.

Something we all better face, dont' count on anything, plan for the worse even if hoping for better.

RogerNC

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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Well said, Roger. The trickle down effects of job outsourcing coupled with ....
Mar 10, 2004 5:35PM PST

the trickle down effects of high gas prices, the baby boomers coming of retirement age and not enough people left paying into Social Securtity plus other negatives, does not bode well for the future of the country. And I don't think the name of the next president of the USA will make much difference in those areas.

On the other hand, while in a huge, packed parking lot of a grocery store I realizied I had to scan long and hard to actually see a car! There was a sea of the fancy larger type pickup trucks and SUVs, all gas guzzlers/wasters. Do most of these people actually NEED these type vehicles? Don't they know gas prices are going up, up and up?

There are several new housing developments going up like wild fire between here and Houston. These are huge two story, 3 to $500,000 average price range homes. First of all where in the world do people get this kind of money and second of all do they NEED that kind of home? Families are getting smaller, or non existant, and the homes are getting larger.

I can easily see why both spouses need to work around the clock to pay for what they want while someone else raises their kids and clean their homes. The day may be coming when couples will need to take a closer look at what they really want and need. If only one spouse worked in most families there just may be enough jobs for all heads of household.

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Re:Well said, Roger. The trickle down effects of job outsourcing coupled with ....
Mar 10, 2004 9:31PM PST

One problem with only one spouse working, when it comes to retirement the non working spouse only recieves 50% of the wage earners SS amt. and in many cases this a real problem for elderly trying to buy meds and stuff. Especially if they don't have a back up retirement plan. And with only one income there may not be much room or time to save with paying college tuition and actually just raising the children, especially if there are extenuating circumstances such as health problems with the children.And many women need the fulfillment of work to say they have to make a choice is unfair.