Camcorder Checklist

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sort of confusing... need help with clarifications.

by boya84 Oct 13, 2013 12:17PM PDT

The Canon XL1 was (and still is) a pretty decent pro-grade rig. Large lens diameter (72mm with the included lens - varied as the XL1 has an interchangeable lens system) and large (1/3 inch) 3CCD imaging chip system... and recorded low compression, high quality, standard definition, video to miniDV tape. It is very easy to capture better looking video with this rig than an inexpensive consumer-grade camcorder. As well, manual audio gain control + a host of useful and commonly used manual controls on the outside of the camcorder (not buried in a menu. Some would have considered this a pro-grade rig - the only thing missing is XLR audio inputs for external mics.

Here is where I need some clarification on your list:

1) You want "professional looking" without professional gear. Fair enough - assuming it is the person behind the camera as opposed to the camera itself... SPend less on the camcorder and likely spend more on lighting. Is there a separate budget for lighting?

2) A separate headphone out is not normally on any low-end consumer cam... maybe midrange or higher, but low price is all about cutting features to save money - you can use the audio portion of the AV-out for audio monitoring, but there is no level control. If a separate, level controllable headset out is required, then you'll probably need to increase your budget. Is volume control on the headphone-out for audio monitoring required? Audio inputs are one thing - but the ability to manually control the audio gain is another. Is manual audio gain control required?

3) Replaceable memory without removing the camcorder from the tripod - fair enough. No clarification needed here.

4) There is no "unitversal shoe" fro tripods. Each manufacturer has decided to make their own. The 1/4 x 20 screws are universal, but the quick release plates are manufacturer specific. Many manufacturers make different quick release plates, too - so a QR plate from one tripod may not work with another from the same tripod manufacturer. This is not a camcorder manufacturer issue...

5) Capture sill and built-in memory (in addition to removable memory... but a "want" not a "need".

6) You did not tell us which Mac, what version OSX or which version Adobe Premiere. We'll need to know that to understand what the editing process flow might be.

7) OK. No clarification needed other than that which was requested in item 6. We assume the Mac has adequate RAM (4 gig; but 8 gig is better) and a CPU from the last year or so... and LOTS of external hard disc drive space...

Your price range has us at the entry level Canon Legria HF R area. Similarly priced competitors from Sony and Panasonic will trade various capabilities. I think the Canon Legria HF M506 gets the volume-controlled headphone monitoring, but you should check the manual from Canon UK yourself. You may need to either reduce your expectations/requirements or increase your budget... I hope this Q/A helps...

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Thanks

by Tr144er Oct 13, 2013 4:19PM PDT

Firstly thanks for the reply, very comprehensive and helpful.

Your piece about the XL1 has made me all sentimental and have been reminiscing all the good times we had together.....anyway sorry

My requirements probably outweigh my wants at the moment. The main focus of my needs are to film web videos with good picture quality and audio quality.

1) Most consumer cameras nowadays are HD so I understand I will get what I pay for but for my end use if my budget is around £3-400 I will get fairly good results. I used to be an online editor so am used to making bad footage look good but I am confident with cameras however I understand I will be limited with manual settings on my budget anyway so this is probably neither here nor there.

2) Being out of the game for several years I am assuming most consumer cameras still sound like Uncle Bob is down a well and little Mikey is inaudible behind his stuffed toy. Well I won't be filming family stuff (well I will but this isn't the primary focus of the purchase) Most of my set ups will be the subject approx 2-3 metres away in front of a white board presenting or an intimate one-one interview indoors somewhere. I am just concerned I spend on a camera that looks lovely, vivd images, beautiful colours only to be let down by unprofessional audio.

3) NA

4) Fair enough, this is in no way a deal breaker, I will be shooting most from a tripod but if the right camera is there for me I will purchase a new tripod if necessary. I'm not doing any fancy tracking shots or anything so I won't need to spend big on this.

5) Still image quality seems to vary hugely with no real link with price or make. It is down the list of needs but it would be nice to be able to take decent quality stills.

6) I run an iMac with a 2.9GHz Intel Core i5 with 8gb of RAM. The Mac is only 3-4 months old so Im on Mountain Lion 10.8.5 and have Adobe Premier Pro CS6

The Canon Legria HF M506 is a perfect example of my befuddlement with todays consumer cameras. It has some okay manual settings and ticks some boxes but then has a whole host of ridiculous features like animation mode and the wi-fi/server connectivity makes me think the price is higher just for this unnecessary (personally) feature. Although it is priced around the £5-600 mark it is available from various outlets around £250-£300.

Thanks again and any other suggestions based on my reply would be greatly appreciated.

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getting closer...

by boya84 Oct 13, 2013 11:18PM PDT

1) Fair enough.

2) Not much has changed from an audio standpoint. Get the mic closer to the audio source. Shotgun mics have an effective range of about 2 meters - maybe a little more in a quiet environment. Wireless lavalieres work great. If the audio is a good level within about a meter of the camera, even the built-ins can work. Capturing audio separately is best, but your budget does not get us there.

3) -

4) OK. You already know that more money can = more steady. There is a lot to be said for a fluid head (but may not work in your budget).

5) OK.

6) Great. Capture video, connect camcorder to computer with USB cable, launch video editor, Import/capture the video. Close to miniDV tape using firewire, but not done in real time. You can also take the memory out of the camcorder and use the iMac's card reader (back of the computer) to copy the MTS files to the computer. Then use a transcoder like HandBrake from www.handbrake.fr to get the video into a format the editor can deal with. VLC player from www.videoLAN.org can playback the MTS files directly (QuickTime cannot).

Consumer cams are different from pro stuff. The manufacturers have not done a very good job with long term storage or editing. It is getting better, but typical consumers don't want wires (but don't understand video uses bandwidth wireless does not yet have); lots of "features" you won't use (like lots of things you won't use on/in your iMac). Don't worry about that - just be sure what you need is available. Things like wifi are inexpensive, single chip things that do not impact image quality. Competitive models will likely have competitive features. If the Canon version is not to your liking, then look at Panasonic and Sony. In the same price range, the lenses and imaging chips will be similar along with many of the same useful features and the video file type (AVCHD) is the same. The Canon HF M series used to be the least expensive with a 10-12 step manual audio gain control buried in the menu. The others may have that now.

Audio Technica makes decent, affordable, on-camera shotgun mics. No accessory shoe means adding an inexpensive camera bracket. using the mic off-camera = use shielded extension cable. Lighting is another consideration (and investment) - a couple of worklights on tripods may be enough. There are no good wireless lavs (that I know of) under about US$600 (Sennheiser - unless you can find something used)...

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Accessory Shoe

by Tr144er Oct 14, 2013 12:09AM PDT

Thanks again,

So it looks like its going to all be down to whether I go with a decent consumer camcorder with an accessory shoe and purchase an external mic to ensure I get a bit better sound for interviews and presenters or use the camera bracket option you have suggested.

Any suggestions on a decent option that has an accessory shoe? I found this one but still a bit pricey.
http://www.techradar.com/reviews/cameras-and-camcorders/camcorders/panasonic-hc-v720-1142041/review

As for lighting they do a kit on ebay that looks tempting. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3x6m-chromakey-green-screen-background-lighting-kit-/300551896857 (Sorry Im guessing you are in the U.S and I keep using pounds) otherwise Im used to the guerilla filming approach and have used worklights before.

Thanks

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and closer still

by boya84 Oct 14, 2013 1:47AM PDT

The Panny appears to be over your budget, but if that is OK with you, who am I to say no? It is a fine camcorder.

The manual will have all your answers.
http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPERMANPDF/HCV720_ADV.PDF

Many consumer grade camcorders dropped a proper accessory shoe, so a camera bracket provides the accessory mounting capability
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/734090-REG/Vello_CB_500_CB_500_Dual_Shoe_Bracket.html
These are handy because there are two cold shoes - one for a mic and one for a video light... plus, it is a handle forcing two-handed use if you must be hand-held. There is a 1/4x20 mounting screw on the bottom for tripod mounting. There are many similar brackets available.

One item regularly missing from consumer camcorders is a proper viewfinder. Flip-out LCD panel is all you get. It was not on your requirements list... This is a huge difference from the XL1 which had no LCD panel and only an eyepiece viewfinder.

That lighting/greenscreen kit you linked us to looks fine...

No worries about the currency conversion - we both can convert - but yes, I am in California.

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getting wooed

by Tr144er Oct 14, 2013 2:44AM PDT

Im being wooed (not sure if that translates to American but it means its flashing me its shiny bits and im falling for it) by the Panasonic HC-X920. Way out of my price range but can get on a Buy Now Pay Later (12 months) and as its for my business I am hoping to make that back ten fold by then.

However is it just a bit too much for what I need, im an enthusiast that lost enthusiasm (plus got married, had kids and changed careers) so the manual options and obvious quality upgrade are pulling me in.

Nobody can make up my mind but I know I can get what I need on a budget by following your helpful advice or I can say f**k it and get a quality bit of kit that I could use for future promotional videos and training videos I have in the pipeline. I could spend £300 plus now then end up spending double that next year when I need something better.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/panasonic-hc-x920_Camcorder_review

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Panasonic 720

by Terfyn Oct 14, 2013 2:52AM PDT

I have the older 700. It is a great camera. Both have a mic input but you would have to get the headphone drive from the A/V out. I use a FiiO mini amplifier to match the output to my headphones.

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"wooed" works. So does "seduced"...

by boya84 Oct 14, 2013 3:11AM PDT

Three items to note:

1) If you like the Panasonic HC-X920, take a look at the Canon HF G20 (it is the prosumer sibling to the X20 or XA10 - no XLR adapter and a few other things). By the way, I am not a Canon bigot (though it may seem that way). I own/use Sony gear, but Sony's line-up in your budget range is not exactly suitable for your needs.

2) If you get to control the lighting, the HC-V720 and HC-X920 will be similar (and the eyepiece is added to the 920).

3) Regardless of the camera you get today, consider keeping it - a two camera shoot when you have good lighting is great (when both are white-balanced together).

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G20

by Tr144er Oct 14, 2013 3:37AM PDT

I don't think there is a PAL version of the G20 we have a G25 and G30, the 25 is in the same bracket as the X920 and the G30 is a couple of hundred more. I do prefer the look of the Canon but the only way I could extend to this budget is going through my online account and the only model they have in this range is the Panny.

Im going to have to mull over it for a bit but thanks immensely for the impartial advice. Very tough choice though so going to have to weigh up pros and cons.

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Camera Bought, Audio Next

by Tr144er Oct 18, 2013 1:19AM PDT

Thanks again for all help and suggestions, just to let you know I bit the bullet and shelled out for the X920. I preferred the Canon but I was limited as to where I could purchase from to get the best BNPL deal.

Anyway so far I am well impressed, the quality is way beyond any of the consumer cameras ive seen before. I bought an Audio Technica ATR 6250 shotgun mic which will be ideal for interviews and the webinars we are going to be doing but bombshell just hit.

Need to go out on the road in a couple of weeks filming seminars and training and am concerned the mic will not produce the quality we require. My experience and knowledge of audio is very limited but for best results I feel a lavelier mic is the only way forward. SO any suggestions in this area? And will I be best off getting something like http://www.beachtek.com/products/camcorders/dxa-2t/ so I can have one channel with the lav mic and one with the shotgun as back up?

Any suggestions on which lav mic to get that wont bust the bank?

Thanks again!

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Mics like to be

by boya84 Oct 19, 2013 1:21AM PDT

near the audio source (assuming the audio level is not too loud).

If the goal is to record the person speaking, then locating the mic near the person works. The Audio Technica ATR6250 is designed to be camera mounted (hence the short cable). However, if a longer cable can be used, then you are good to go. Yes there are limitations... if the person speaking move away from the mic, if the cable is not shielded... lot of other logistics...

Wireless lavaliers, as you know, clip on to the person speaking. That means the mic is always close to the person speaking. Good wireless gear is not inexpensive. I use Sennheiser wireless gear. I have used Sony, Shure and Audio Technica. If the camcorder is mobile, then use of a desktop or rack mount base station will help with the budget - they need to plug into a power outlet. If additional flexibility is needed and the base station needs to be portable, then a battery-powered base station is needed.

Your camcorder has a single 3.5mm stereo audio input. The ATR 6250 cable is a single 3.5mm connector. Most of the lower end lavs use a 3.5mm connector. The better ones use a XLR connectors (actually, they come with two cables, 1-3.5mm and 1-XLR).

The BeachTek DXA-2T you linked us to is designed to be a XLR adapter... the mics have XLR connectors and plug into the DXA-2T; the DXA-2T has a 3.5mm stereo connector that plugs into the camcorder's 3.5mm mic jack. The DXA-T2 has no 3.5mm inputs.

Either you need to add a couple of XLR (2T side) to 3.5mm female 3.5mm adapter/converter/tales between the T2 to the mic connections or a different "mixer" is needed (one with 3.5mm inputs).

I don't know if this will work
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/774394-REG/QUE_AUDIO_QAD2_QAD2_1_8_3_5mm_to.html

The NRG Research/Schriber Acoustic SA-568 comes with two cables - one is a XLR-XLR cable; the other is XLR to 3.5mm if a different shotgun mic is possible. There may be other mics that come with both cables - I just don't know about them.

The Audio Technica PRO88W is good for a low end system. I have no experience with Azden or others.

This might be a better solution http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/962864-REG/beachtek_mcc_2_2_channel_audio_adapter.html

But we need to know what mics/connectors will need to be supported.

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