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General discussion

Bush to Release Military Pay Records

Feb 10, 2004 2:58AM PST

Discussion is locked

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Re:I thought Kerry is the tough warrior! He turned tail and vamoosed, and,
Feb 10, 2004 10:55PM PST

As opposed to bush who avoided going over at all.

Kerry's request for release and bush's request cannot be considered equal.

I have undying respect for those in service to their country regardless of my own service record.

Do you believe that there should be a requirement before discussing the qualifications of candidates?

Dan

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Bush took his risks just like Kerry, and just like a lot of other guys.
Feb 11, 2004 5:35AM PST

As was noted, it's no picnic to fly a fighter and very easy to die if you don't know what you're doing. What we don't know is if Bush, as Kerry did, would have left his men in the lurch once he accumulated the minimum needed to get out of there. Certainly, Bush, as Commander in Chief, has been willing to take the 'flak'.

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No, I am not 'kidding'...
Feb 11, 2004 2:34AM PST

Kerry wimped out!

Ever wonder about his "band of brothers" and their PCF 94? Kerry was OIC on PCF 44 and 66, NOT 94. Some of them were on his previous commands (44 and 66) but finished their tours on 94 under another's command.

Wonder why he never mentions that. Abandonment for scrapes and scratches is a lot worse than missed but made up meetings.

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PS - there is a world of difference between...
Feb 10, 2004 5:53AM PST

AWOL whle on active duty (applies even to activated reservists and Guard) and missing meetings which can be made up in the Reserves/Guard when the unit or personnel have NOT been activated.

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Re: PS - there is a world of difference between...
Feb 10, 2004 12:20PM PST

Uh, Ed.

This was in war time, time people were dying for their country. The real issue ought to be how he managed to have a Guard spot created for him, how he manage to get a transfer from one State's Guard to another to work on a political campaign (such transfers are VERY unusual), and how he got let out of even his cushy assignment nine months early to go to Harvard B-school, despite mediocre grades at Yale. His entire life reeks of privilege and influence exerted on his behalf -- and that will become one the THE major issues in the campaign if the Democrats are as smart as I suspect they are.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Umm Dave, what was your military service? You sound like
Feb 10, 2004 12:37PM PST

someone who was there and knew what was going on. The controversy, as I recall, was about a period in 1971 and 1972. I can tell you, that in that period, the war was winding down. In my case, the Army had too many second liuetenants and many were allowed to join reserve units to complete their obligation. I knew no one, but got into a unit. It didn't take influence.

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Re: Umm Dave, what was your military service? You sound like
Feb 10, 2004 10:30PM PST

Hi, KP.

I got out on a double whammy -- 1Y due to being allergic to both penicillin and sulfa (makes it hard for the medics to trat you if you get shot), and then my number was over 300 in the lottery had I been changed to 1A. But I think those who fled to Canada, or Seweden, or went to jail rather than serve in what they saw as an immoral war were every bit as courageous as those who fought -- and a lot more courageous than those who used Daddy's inluence to have a safe slot created for them (Quayle did the same, you'll recall) while professing to support the War. My phrase for those "patriots" is "willing to fight to the last drop of someone else's blood."

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Yes and no
Feb 10, 2004 10:56PM PST

I can't argue with the ones that were willig to go to jail because they disagreed with the war. They demonstrated their convictions and willing to pay the price for them.

The ones that fled the country are a bit different. I won't say all were one or the other as far as sincere antiwar or just didn't want to go themselves. But I would suspect most of them lived quite will on mommies and daddies money while they were abroad, so how is that standing up for your beliefs?

"My phrase for those "patriots" is "willing to fight to the last drop of someone else's blood." "

Sounds about like someone who would leave the country then as soon as the Vietnam war was over and amnesty extended come back and never heard from them again as far as wrong or right of Vietnam doesn't it? A few have stuck to their views and campaigned for the truth and for safeguards. But I bet most just were glad to get back home and get a 9 to 5 job and get drunk on Sat night.

roger

Against anyone the ABB people pick.

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So, maybe you shouldn't try to make it sound like you know how things work
Feb 10, 2004 11:18PM PST

in the military, and, since you didn't have to face the risk, maybe you should cut the 'daddy' crap. I don't think those who left the country were courageous at all. They were, for the most part, rich, spoiled kids whose Daddies supported them, and who didn't want to put themselves at any risk whatsoever. They were the lowest of the low. Those who went to jail were at least willing to pay the price for their convictions.

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Re:Re: Umm Dave, what was your military service? You sound like
Feb 11, 2004 3:12AM PST
My phrase for those "patriots" is "willing to fight to the last drop of someone else's blood."

Much like yourself as you have stated here that had your number come up you would have dodged it anyway.

Other than aiding the enemy in your protests what did you do to support the country? NOTHING!
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Draft lottery number trivia...
Feb 11, 2004 3:42AM PST

Just for historical trivia, a link to a site that shows the 1969 draft lottery numbers. The list is at the bottom of the page, and let's you look up any birth date and see it's number. Fun for trivia and other purposes.

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9/10, J. But....
Feb 11, 2004 4:47AM PST

in 1969, my draft status was 5Y.

(Service obligation completed. 8 years, 9 months, 27 days active duty, USAF)

Bo

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Re: Draft lottery number trivia... I don't see the link, J. (NT)
Feb 11, 2004 12:08PM PST

.

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Here's the Draft lottery number link...
Feb 11, 2004 7:27PM PST
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Re:Re: PS - there is a world of difference between...
Feb 10, 2004 8:30PM PST

"His entire life reeks of privilege and influence exerted on his behalf -- and that will become one the THE major issues in the campaign if the Democrats are as smart as I suspect they are."

And your point is?

How many political figures you thing that are that didn't use influence for someone in their friends and family? or had it used for them? Poppycock making it an issue, most of the political critters couldn't stand the scrunity themselves.

roger

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Uh Dave...
Feb 11, 2004 3:08AM PST

it doesn't matter when it happened as the unit was not activated and meetings could be skipped as desired and completely within law and regulation.

How he got the spot is immaterial. He got it.

Transfers between units? Get serious Dave. That is how the Guard and Reserves work and it allows the free movement of citizen Soldiers who make up the units. They are free to go as their civilian jobs require of them.

He got out early EXACTLY the same way as Kerry got returned to CONUS early--as provided by regulations. Kerry admits that there was a little assistance in his getting the assignment as an Admiral's Aide to facilitate his early abandonment of his crew.

You want "reek" go whiff around Kerry. Family was longtime friends with the Kennedys and still is you know. Spent a lot of time sailing with JFK before enlisting in his hero's branch of service.

Yep, lots of REEKING of priviledge and influence exerted on his behalf and now he is even starting to smell a bit of the "Enron scandal".

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Won't argue the woman and child thing...........
Feb 10, 2004 6:37AM PST

...but I have seen several instances where an initial
finding/decision was reversed when all the facts became
known. At the unit level, initially, if a person is not
present and otherwise not excused, they are reported AWOL
on the first calander day of such absence. Later, when
facts become known, the records are adjusted. Doesn't
take the media to make it happen.

Regarding 'early outs', Gore had an early out from Vietnam,
as did Kerry. Kerry also had an early out from the Navy.

Early Outs are not uncommon, and there are administrative
procedures and guidelines to handle them. One doesn't
need a political connection to obtain an early out.

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They just 'appeared' all these years later?
Feb 10, 2004 4:20AM PST

If this had been done by someone at a different spot on the political spectrum, we'd be getting outrage from those who are bush apologists.

Dan

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Yes, Dan. See my post to Josh. It's actually rare that these records exist
Feb 10, 2004 4:32AM PST

which is why they were surprised to find them. Think maybe its divine providence?

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Providence? No.
Feb 10, 2004 4:41AM PST

I think it's a very strange circumstance where they can find a few pieces of paper out of thousands that were destroyed and not find one single guardsman who remembers seeing bush during his 'service'. You'd think a few of them would want to come forward to stand with their president. At least one.

Dan

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Ummmmm. You'ld be surprised then.
Feb 10, 2004 5:05AM PST

I was in the reserves for at least six years, probably longer, and I'ld be hard pressed to remember more than Gene Siskel and Ed Burke (the Chicago alderman). I'ld be totally amazed if ANYONE remembered me.

BTW, you are talking about Alabama were nobody knew him right? and, you did see the mention in Bo's link that two people who knew Bush DO REMEMBER him going to meetings in Alabama?

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How so, Dan...
Feb 10, 2004 12:32PM PST

How so, Dan? I spent several monthy TDY at a base in west Texas at that time, and I seriously doubt if anybody would remember me. Along a similar line, once in D.C. I was talking to a member of Congress and in the yammering it came out that we were at the same base at the same time briefly. Neither of us remembered if we saw each other back then, although we thought about it.

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What's so unusual, Dan...
Feb 10, 2004 12:11PM PST

Dan, what's so unusual? I served way back then. My records are probably still sitting in that storage warehouse where they dumped them all those years ago. Bear in mind, this was before the days of computers as we know them, and I doubt if the military ever took the time and/or money to load all of that data from me and all the others who served into a modern database, it would be a truly staggering number of pieces of paper.
There is a diference between somebody finally digging up something in that dusty old mass of paperwork and old pay records suddenly appearing in the open on a table in a library in the personal living quarters upstairs in the White House.

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Puppy Dogs shaking a sock............
Feb 10, 2004 5:29AM PST

....they don't know when to quit. And all of this has
no more merit than the puppy dog.

An honorable discharge and no record of disciplinary
action is the final answer.

Drills and meetings most of the time were nothing more
than social get togethers in the reserve outfit that I
belonged to. A phone call to a designated indivudual
explaining that you wouldn't be there was all that was
required to clear you from a missed schedule. No records
were kept of these calls, except that the attendance
records were marked "excused". These records were no more
than pencil logs, and how long they were maintained I
don't know.

I have heard from others that this was the same situation
in their Guard and/or Reserve Unit.

Early outs from Guard and Reserves was not uncommon, in
fact a routine administrative matter to accomodate
school or employment. In this regard, today, with all
of the pressures on troop strength, the active duty
AF has a program called Palace Chase to handle early outs.

This entire thing about his guard service reminds me of
a story about a Saturday morning inspection at an officer
cadet school in dusty Kansas. All the cadets has worked
hard to prepare. The Inspecting Officer made several trips
back and forth between the rows of bunks and lockers,
and had failed to find anything wrong. Suddenly he
stopped and backed up. He pointed at a bunk and instructed
his aide to "gig" that cadet as a grasshopper was on his
bunk. Exasperated, the cadet blurted out, "That's two
gigs, Sir, there's dust on the grasshoppers back".

Bush's guard duty attendance is the dust.