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General discussion

Bush hated for his religious faith?

Dec 16, 2003 11:40PM PST

Terry Eastland argues that 'Among the many faults charged against George W. Bush it is probably his conservative Christian faith that most troubles the people who dislike him--or most infuriates the people who hate him."

http://www.opinionjournal.com/la/?id=110004440

Why, in an age of 'tolerance', do some many tolerant people think it's acceptable to be intolerant of Christians?

Discussion is locked

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No, not for that.
Dec 17, 2003 3:31AM PST

Bush is not hated for his faith. He is hated for his narrowmindedness, for his shortsightedness, for his ignorance and lack of intelligence, for the way he butchers the language, for his contempt for the constitution and his kowtowing to his corporate minders. I've never spoken with a person who's given a hoot about his faith.

Dan

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Dan, just curious. Are you Irish or Scottish?
Dec 17, 2003 4:31AM PST

.

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Irish
Dec 17, 2003 4:33AM PST

.

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Re:Dan, just curious. Are you Irish or Scottish?
Dec 17, 2003 6:08AM PST

What does it matter? Are you going to lump Mr. McCullough in with EVERYONE who may happen to have his heritage simple based on his bloodline?

How sad for our current understanding of humanity.

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Do you always assume the worst of people?
Dec 17, 2003 6:27AM PST

I asked because I was curious as to whether McCullough is Irish or Scottish. My mother was a McDonald (Scottish), and I'm very interested in Celtic people.

You remind me of the parable where Jesus talked about trying to take the sliver out of your brother's eye when you have a beam in your own eye. He said to get the beam out of your own eye, then maybe you can see well enough to help another. Think about it!

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Thank you for your "sermon from mount listen to me because I speak the word of god". I shall take your word from god under advisement..
Dec 17, 2003 7:08AM PST
Happy
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for his lack of intelligence ...
Dec 17, 2003 4:36AM PST

... how rich coming from you

At least you admit it's HATRED! LOL How inclusive and tolerant of you Dan.

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Doesn't strike me as any more or less hateful than.....
Dec 17, 2003 5:13AM PST

....referring to a United States Senator as "Shrillary," but that's just me.....

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An intelligent person...
Dec 17, 2003 5:27AM PST

...would have read the post and realized that I never said I hated him. I was giving reasons that he is hated that have nothing to do with his apparent faith. It's a subtle difference that could easily be missed.

No problem,

Dan

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Re: Bush hated for his religious faith?
Dec 17, 2003 8:15AM PST

Hi, KP.

People don't dislike Bush because of his Christian faith. But many people (including me) dislike him because he believes he has the right to impose his moral code on others. Furthermore, his policies are very un-Christian -- Christ's message was primarily about economic justice, not sexual morality, yet Bush continually favors the rich and powerful over the poor (the opposite of the "preferential option for the poor" preached by the oldest Christian Church on earth, and which Christ Himself was continually criticized for by the movers an shakers of the day).
-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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dislike him because he believes he has the right to impose his moral code on others
Dec 17, 2003 8:23AM PST

And this differs from your (and all other liberals, libertarians, socialists, and conservatives) wants and desires in what way?

Your interpretation of his policies is your interpretation and sorry to say it is rather full of holes Dave. You might just want to do a little re-study of "Christ's message".

Christ never advocated the welfare state you have in your sights.

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Hmmmm, I wonder what heaven is if not a "hand out from on high"??? LOL
Dec 17, 2003 8:50AM PST
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I think there is hope for you T.
Dec 17, 2003 12:58PM PST

It is a 'hand out' from on high. We have nothing to commend ourselves; it is only God's grace and His free gift that will save us.

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Re:I think there is hope for you T.
Dec 17, 2003 1:53PM PST

Oh, in case you don't know it, I've probably had more indoctrination in "the ways of god" than many to most here.

Hope springs eternal it is said.

Glad you liked my reply.

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Ah yes, the 'reverend' T.
Dec 18, 2003 1:23AM PST
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Re:Ah yes, the 'reverend' T.
Dec 19, 2003 4:26AM PST

Edward,

I've been a Minister in one and a Reverend in the other for some time now.

Just have not applied to the local government here so that I might perform any marriages. Happy

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NT - Not a hand out, a hand up - we have to do our part.
Dec 24, 2003 11:23AM PST

...

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Re:dislike him because he believes he has the right to impose his moral code on others
Dec 17, 2003 1:20PM PST

Hi, Ed.

Liberals (including the Founding Fathers) believe it is not the role of the government to impose one group's values on everyone else. That, in fact, is what led to the founding of this country, as you surely learned in school -- folks fleeing religious persecution in Europe. For example, we're for CHOICE in abortion. Don't believe in it? Don't have one. But we're not trying to force our views on you, other than in preserving women's reproductive freedom.
-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Not to disrespect the accepted history and our forefathers image too much
Dec 17, 2003 9:43PM PST

But I've read more than one opinion that the Pilgrims didn't come here to escape persecution as much as they did to established communities where they could insist everyone in their community observe their rules.

Perhaps the only reason we did get the safeguards in our constitution we did is that by the time the colonists decided they had to bind together against English King, the colonists were already so diverst in different groups they had to acknowledge other beliefs to get along.

In cynical terms, the freedom from government interference was because each colony/state wanted to do things their own way and not have the other interferring.

Perhaps the early 'union' was more a case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend than close friendship.

Not the accepted rosy lens view of our founding fathers, but more human actually.

roger

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Re: Not to disrespect the accepted history and our forefathers image too much
Dec 18, 2003 4:03AM PST

Hi, Roger.

That may well have been true of the Pilgrims, buit it definitely was not true of the Quakers in Pennsylvania and Rhode Island, or the Catholics in Maryland...
-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Most of the groups that came to America as a religious group
Dec 18, 2003 7:34AM PST

Did want to do something similiar, they wanted to established a COMMUNITY based on, and ruled by, their beliefs.

They may not have tried to force others particularly, but each wanted an isolated community that everyone there did abide by their rules. I doubt any of them truly welcome nonbelievers.

roger

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Artful Dodger...
Dec 18, 2003 1:20AM PST
"Liberals (including the Founding Fathers) believe it is not the role of the government to impose one group's values on everyone else.

Rationalize that statement with health care paid for through taxation being some kind of "right".

Rationalize it with "fair share" of those who are successful being orders of magnitude gerater than the "fair share" or those actually receiving more than they pay.

Rationalize that with government set "minimum wage" that historically boosts prices which in turn lowers purchase ability.

Rationalize that with the liberal mantra of political correctness or some strange necessity for "hate crime laws" or mandated acceptance of what goes against one's religious values.

My statement stands.
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I agree, but I also think you've got it wrong...
Dec 17, 2003 12:55PM PST

I agree Jesus was a radical who did not favor the rich and powerful, but his message was NOT primarily about economic justice. His message was primarily about Himself - if you have seen me, you have seen the Father, etc. His message was that He is the way to God, and this is the central truth of our existence. That's far more important than some debate about Bush.

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Re: I agree, but I also think you've got it wrong...
Dec 17, 2003 9:36PM PST

Hi, KP.

There were two major parts to the "good news" -- the first part, which He emphasized less, was who He was. The second part was what is necessary for salvation and the coming of the Kingdom. And Martin Luther had it wrong -- faith enough is not enough, nor are pious platitudes about compassion. "By their fruits ye shall know them." As for the preference for the poor, it comes up again and again. Probably the best example isn't in His words, but Mary's, in "the Magnificat" (Luke 1, 48-56) In part she says (of God):
"He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.
53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away."
-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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I guess the apostle Paul also had it wrong then when he said,
Dec 17, 2003 11:04PM PST

"For by grace are you saved through faith, it is not of works lest any man should boast", and when he talked about those who were saved by their faith; Abraham, Moses, Rahab, etc. Jesus told us to repent and believe in Him because the kingdom of God is at hand. Why was the kingdom at hand? Because Jesus had brought it and would establish through His death.

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Re: I guess the apostle Paul also had it wrong then when he said,
Dec 18, 2003 7:11AM PST

Hi, KP.

Christ also said "Not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven. Saying and believing the right thing is not enough - one must DO the right thing as well. Bush talks a good game, but his deeds don't even come close to matching his words.
-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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You've got the cause and effect mixed up.
Dec 19, 2003 8:43AM PST

I think the New Testament argues that FIRST you must believe. You are not CAPABLE of doing anything to improve your situation. All you can do is repent, and believe in, or accept, Christ by faith. As a result of your faith, God enters your life and BEGINS to transform you. You CAN'T do it by yourself; you are dependent on God for this transforming power. As Paul says, salvation is a gift of God which cannot be earned. As a result of God's transforming power, you are then able to do the good deeds to which you refer. Thus, the good deeds are the result of salvation. They are not a part of acquiring it.

As far as Bush is concerned, it appears to me that he has come a long way from where he was before he made his committment to Christ. He is no longer the hard drinking guy 'playing' his way through life. He looks like he's trying to make a serious contribution to improving the country and the world. Do you think you are in a position to judge him? What words and deeds are you referring to when you say his deeds don't match his words.

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Re: You've got the cause and effect mixed up.
Dec 19, 2003 12:46PM PST

Hi, KP.

Yes, you certainly must believe first. However, Catholics now believe that those who do good according to their own value system will be saved, even if they don't know Christ. And Christ made it clear time and time again that faith without good works was not enough -- the most telling example is the parable of the good Samaritan. A priest passed the poor unfortunate by, but a Samaritan (who was not of the Chosen People) took care of him. Did Christ tell us to emulate the priest? No, he told us to emulate the Samaritan. Bush proclaimig himself to be a Christian and calling for "compassion" to the poor and unfortunate does not outweigh the fact that his policies has made their life more difficult in ways too numerous to detail.
-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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You've got the wrong question.
Dec 19, 2003 1:50PM PST

Jesus was not asked the way of salvation when he gave the parable of the good samaritan. He was asked (Luke 10:29 NIV) "And who is my neighbor?". Jesus then asked which of the three was a neighbor. After receiving the correct answer, he said "Go and do likewise."

This is what He said about salvation in (John 3:18 NIV) "Whoever believes in him (the Son) is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

I'm sure you already know what he said about the way to God; (John 14:6 NIV) "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Your question came from the young rich man who asked, (Matt 19:16 NIV) "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" And the answer? "If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.", and, paraphrasing, give up that which you treasure most. Then come and follow Jesus. Can anyone claim to have kept the commandments? Paul makes it clear that the commandments are intended to show us that we cannot do it with our own effort. We are dependent on God's gift. Did the thief on the cross do good works? Jesus told him "today you will be with me in paradise".

If you think good works, divorced from Christ, will save you, you've been misinformed. Although you charge Bush, you still give no specifics and continue to claim the authority to judge him. There is no answer for that.

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It seems odd
Dec 22, 2003 11:33PM PST

Let me see if I've got this right.

Person A lives a good and generous life for decades. Does good works, feeds the poor, donates like mad, is kind to children and animals, courteous and respectful to all, on and on. A life dedicated to others. He just has zero religious beliefs.

Person B is awful. Steals, lies, cheats, kills, all sorts of nastiness. On his deathbed he recants and accepts jesus and all that.

Are you saying that person B gets eternal reward and person A gets eternal damnation?

Dan