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Bush caves to McCain on anti-torture measures.

by Dan McC / December 15, 2005 4:03 AM PST
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I bet McCain would have some choice words.....
by Josh K / December 15, 2005 4:09 AM PST

....about "torture" vs. "abuse" too.

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Why isn't the headline
by duckman / December 15, 2005 6:44 AM PST

"Bush compromises with McCain?"

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Because a
by Dan McC / December 15, 2005 11:52 AM PST
In reply to: Why isn't the headline

fig leaf is not a compromise.


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Not a fig leaf, and olive leaf
by Dragon / December 16, 2005 11:08 AM PST
In reply to: Because a

That makes a good attempt at diffusing the entire issue without really giving in.

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McCain didn't have to give in.
by Dan McC / December 16, 2005 1:26 PM PST

He had the votes on his side.


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Hardly a "cave", Dan.
by Paul C / December 15, 2005 9:32 AM PST

From the story:

Under the agreement, interrogators for the Central Intelligence Agency would be granted the right - already extended to members of the military - to defend themselves from charges of abuse by saying that a reasonable person would believe that they were obeying a legal order. The protection of C.I.A. interrogators had been a key objective of Vice President **** Cheney...

A (somewhat) reasonable compromise, IMO. Of course, even this may not hold:

But the agreement remained controversial. Representative Duncan Hunter, Republican of California and chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, quickly announced his opposition, saying he might try to block the accord unless clearer protections for interrogators were spelled out.

As long as these people feel free to bomb, shoot and behead in the pursuit of their global New Caliphate, we must be able to accept the basic wisdom of George Orwell:

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

And even rougher men are arrayed against the West, Dan...

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(NT) (NT) Violence is one thing...
by Dan McC / December 15, 2005 11:53 AM PST
In reply to: Hardly a "cave", Dan.
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Even if it were a 'cave'
by Dragon / December 15, 2005 9:42 AM PST

it would be a calculated move, giving away nothing. Bush is cagey that way... Wink

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No, remember Bush isn't bright enough for that,
by duckman / December 15, 2005 10:22 AM PST

it's ROVE

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by Dragon / December 15, 2005 11:21 AM PST

Rove may be pretty good but Bush is no a dumbie.

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Seems to me that
by TONI H / December 15, 2005 9:09 PM PST

the agreement isn't a 'cave' if his stance all along has been that we don't torture and we don't abuse...Considering there have been a few isolated incidents that resulted in trials, I would think that the USA stance has already 'caved' all along and that this particular agreement is no big deal.


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I agree that it
by Dan McC / December 16, 2005 12:24 AM PST
In reply to: Seems to me that

should be no big deal to pass this measure. The caving comes from the administration's acceptance of the legislation after its strident denunciations of it and its high profile campaign to defeat it or modify it to a more acceptable form.


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If the stance has always been
by TONI H / December 16, 2005 12:28 AM PST
In reply to: I agree that it

(including other past Presidents) that the USA doesn't torture nor abuse, perhaps because of all of the seedy media stories bandied about that made it appear publicly that we actually DID, then for Bush to accept the agreement would have then appeared to be an admission of guilt when there never was any guilt?


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Then why did he send out
by Dan McC / December 16, 2005 3:03 AM PST

his pal **** to twist so many arms to get an exeption for the CIA?


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And why
by Dan McC / December 16, 2005 3:04 AM PST

did he threaten to veto all defense spending in a time of war if this was just a semantic difference?


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Because he is clever enough
by TONI H / December 16, 2005 3:26 AM PST
In reply to: And why

to realize that an automatic agreement to all would have appeared to be a sweeping admission of guilt just as you are making it appear in this thread. Sometimes the best strategy is to argue for SOME and agree to the rest knowing that in the end you aren't admitting to anything and getting what you want anyhow (and in writing to boot) with that exception.


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I'm making no attempt whatsoever to
by Dan McC / December 16, 2005 4:23 AM PST

make it appear as anything except bush's acquiescence to a measure he detests and has spoken out against strongly.


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