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BO snubs God again

by TONI H / November 19, 2013 1:15 AM PST
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Looks to me that he had at least 5 version to choose from
by Steven Haninger / November 19, 2013 1:33 AM PST
In reply to: BO snubs God again
http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/gettysburg.htm

I suppose it would have been logical to use the one on the Lincoln Memorial but that's the president's prerogative. My guess is that he'd have gotten flack from someone no matter which he went with. It would probably have been safer to not attempt it in today's world with so many claiming, including our own president, that our constitution is fundamentally flawed. Oh well. They did the best they could with what they had. Too bad we can't do the same.
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The one
by TONI H / November 19, 2013 1:46 AM PST

that's been readily accepted is the one Lincoln himself used and penned in his own handwriting and signed rather than 'draft' versions.....I'm sorry, but if every single other person used the same version, you would expect that our current 'leader' would follow suit rather than be the same old azzhole we've had to deal with.

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(NT) point, probably a no win situation
by Roger NC / November 19, 2013 9:27 AM PST
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(NT) Maybe it's all those years going to church?
by Josh K / November 19, 2013 3:19 AM PST
In reply to: BO snubs God again
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(NT) and following to the wrong mentors???
by Steven Haninger / November 19, 2013 3:41 AM PST
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Beside the point
by Josh K / November 19, 2013 4:53 AM PST

I love when people question his religion and then also point out that he went to that church for 20 years.

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If if what I asked is "beside the point",
by Steven Haninger / November 19, 2013 5:06 AM PST
In reply to: Beside the point

I'd expect that you actually had one. Otherwise, I'm left to guess and my guess could very well be incorrect. Maybe you could enlighten us as to what your point actually was.

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Yes, I had one
by Josh K / November 19, 2013 9:40 PM PST

Although he was raised in a primarily secular environment and was late to embrace one particular faith, he considers himself a Christian. The fact that one particular church he attended has generated some controversy is what's beside the point.

And for the record, he doesn't have to "prove" he's a "real Christian" to Toni, you or anyone else.

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And for the record,
by TONI H / November 20, 2013 12:34 AM PST
In reply to: Yes, I had one

I never asked or demanded that he prove it.......Considering that he has left the word "GOD" out of a number of our country's historically accepted versions of oaths, speeches, etc. when he has recited them is proof enough for me. And his wife has stated before that we 'have to change our culture, etc' confirms it because THAT has been proven numerous times already by the two of them.

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Look at it this way
by Josh K / November 20, 2013 1:12 AM PST
In reply to: And for the record,

If he "snubbed God" and if there really is a God, it's been noted in the ledger. Or has God gotten with the times and started using a computer?

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Perhaps you've also heard or read that our president's
by Steven Haninger / November 20, 2013 1:13 AM PST
In reply to: Yes, I had one

joining of that church wasn't due to some epiphany but during political coaching sessions. At least one account claims it was important for his work as a community organizer to select a large, active and well known African-American Christian worship community to join. He was also said to have been advised that not being identified as Christian would be political suicide in Chicago...that he'd not get the African-American vote without that association. I won't offer links but there are plenty. I also won't make the claim that these postulations are entirely accurate but I would not say they're beyond belief.

As for proof of Christianity, I'd say it's quite proper for those of the same faith to hold each other to the same high standards of openness about it. There should be no one calling himself a "closet christian". The two words are mutually excluding.

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I wonder how many politicians do pick particular church
by Roger NC / November 20, 2013 6:44 AM PST

after careful evaluation about the next higher office they intend to run for?

Not excusing Obama if he joined a church just to vet his credentials, just wondering how often which church chosen is a calculate move. I suspect a lot.


I've heard accusations of people moving denominations or particular churches because the one they were in, probably the one they or their spouse grew up in, wasn't the best to be identified with for a high level job, not just politics. Well, not government politics, it would still be politics no matter what the position if that was critical to getting the job.

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church?
by James Denison / November 19, 2013 9:12 AM PST
In reply to: Beside the point

more like "social gospel center" and you may wait a long time to hear a single scripture quoted in one, but a whole lot of what the "reverend" feels and thinks with nothing other than "prophesying from his own mind".

Jer 23:21-22 (NIV) "I did not send these prophets, yet they have run with their message; I did not speak to them, yet they have prophesied. But if they had stood in my council, they would have proclaimed my words to my people and would have turned them from their evil ways and from their evil deeds."

Jer 8:6-9 (NIV) "I have listened attentively, but they do not say what is right. No one repents of his wickedness, saying, 'What have I done?'.. My people do not know the requirements of the Lord. How can you say, 'We are wise...' Since they have rejected the word of the Lord, what kind of wisdom do they have?"

Lam 2:14 (NIV) "The visions of your prophets were false and worthless; they did not expose your sin to ward off your captivity. The oracles they gave you were false and misleading."

Luke 6:26 (NAS) "Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for in the same way their fathers used to treat the false prophets."

Jer 14:14 (NIV) "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries, and the delusion of their own minds."

Micah 3:5 (NIV) This is what the Lord says: "As for the prophets who lead my people astray, if one feeds them, they proclaim 'peace'; if he does not, they prepare to wage war against him."

Jer 8:10-12 (NIV) "From the least to the greatest all are greedy for gain; prophet and priest alike, all practice deceit. They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. 'Peace, peace,' they say, when there is no peace. Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush."

Eph 5:6 (Jer) Do not let anyone deceive you with empty arguments: it is for this loose living that God's wrath comes down on those who rebel against him. Make sure you are not included with them.

Jer 23:30-32 (NIV) "Therefore," declares the Lord, "I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me. Yes,.. I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, 'The Lord declares.' Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,.. They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least," declares the Lord.

Mat 7:15, 20-23 (NIV) "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves... Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them... Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evil doers!'"


2 Cor 11:13-15 (Phi) "God's messengers?" They are counterfeits of the real thing, dishonest practitioners masquerading as the messengers of Christ. Nor do their tactics surprise me when I consider how Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is only to be expected that his agents shall have the appearance of ministers of righteousness--but they will get what they deserve in the end.

2 Pet 2:1 (NEB) But Israel had false prophets as well as true; and you likewise will have false teachers among you. They will import disastrous heresies, disowning the Master who bought them, and bringing swift disaster on their own heads.

Col 2:18-19 (Jer) Do not be taken in by people who like groveling to angels, and worshipping them; people like that are always going on about some vision they have had, inflating themselves to a false importance with their worldly outlook. A man of this sort is not united to the head...

Mat 24:25 (Phi) "False christs and false prophets are going to appear and produce great signs and wonders to mislead, if it were possible, even God's own people. Listen, I am warning you."

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(NT) how do define who's the right mentor for someone else
by Roger NC / November 19, 2013 9:31 AM PST
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I posted this as a question
by Steven Haninger / November 19, 2013 5:29 PM PST

to another post that also asked a question. I'm still waiting for clarification as to what he meant. Otherwise, all I can presume is that he's referring to the J. Wright "mentoring" he got in Chicago. We all know that our president eventually distanced himself from that preacher when news events happened that seemed to be causing him some political capital. The president didn't indicate that he was falling away from christian teaching, however. So we still are left to speculate as to why Obama decided J. Wright wasn't leading him in the right direction. Was it political or was it an honest loss of faith in the man? You get a vote too if you want to enter one. As for myself, I'll just remain a skeptic.

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Funny question there, Roger
by TONI H / November 19, 2013 7:17 PM PST

You seem to feel that someone else shouldn't define who's the right mentor for someone else, but isn't that also exactly what has happened with Obamacare.....one mentor (party and its leader) defining what is the right insurance coverage for everyone else in the country on a very grand scale?

Don't mean to go off topic here, but that's pretty notorious here in SE anyhow, so I felt compelled to compare your question with another situation currently going on and being 'battled'.

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going to a church doesn't mean you're a true believer
by Roger NC / November 19, 2013 9:30 AM PST

or follower of any religion.

Any congregation, religion, philosophy, or politics is full of hypocrites, by their own definition of compliance..

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I think he was going there
by James Denison / November 20, 2013 1:28 AM PST

mainly because Michelle wanted to go there. I believe she had affiliation with that group BEFORE she married him, and that Obama had no known affiliation with any particular religious group, other than his mosque visits overseas as a child and maybe during a trip with an Islamic friend.

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quite common for someone to join their spouses church after
by Roger NC / November 20, 2013 6:45 AM PST

marriage.

I guess the one that is involved less with their church is the one likely to change.

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It really doesn't matter to me
by Josh K / November 20, 2013 1:50 AM PST

I simply find it amusing when people who consider themselves Christian start questioning the legitimacy of someone else's faith, perhaps to try to elevate themselves to a position of supposed religious and moral superiority. Kinda goes against the whole idea, doesn't it.

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I have no such
by TONI H / November 20, 2013 9:50 AM PST

religious or moral superiority......I only find it highly hypocritical of our leader and his supporters, such as yourself, that he can deliberately eliminate the word God in every acceptable speech, etc. and still be considered to be a Christian by himself and all of you. Do you think the Muslims that he supports would be allowed the same courtesy if during one of their accepted speeches that included the word Allah and it was deliberately left out by one of their leaders?

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LOL
by Josh K / November 20, 2013 10:16 PM PST
In reply to: I have no such

You claim no moral superiority, and then go on to suggest that people of a non-Christian faith would react in a way that Christians wouldn't.

And he does not "deliberately eliminate the word of God in every acceptable speech." I've heard him talk about God and faith many times.

By the way, your own link has been updated to clarify that there are five different transcripts of the Gettysburg Address, and two of them do not include "under God." Nobody is really sure whether Lincoln said "under God" or not. Obama was reading the text of the speech from one of those transcripts. Seems to me your beef may be with Lincoln or with whoever transcribed the speech originally.

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hah!
by James Denison / November 21, 2013 5:19 AM PST
In reply to: LOL
"and then go on to suggest that people of a non-Christian faith would react in a way that Christians wouldn't."

suggest?! How about "observe" instead?
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Knowing how vicious
by TONI H / November 21, 2013 5:41 AM PST
In reply to: LOL

radical Muslims are, I am not suggesting anything.....I KNOW they would react severely if one of their leaders deliberately left the word Allah out of one of their accepted speeches.

As for the five version of the G.Address........we know for a fact that the version he recited included the words 'under God' because history has proven that. The other two versions that didn't include those words were drafts that he had been creating as he wrote the final version. Plus the final version is not only penned in his name, signed by him, recited by him on that historical day, and shown in history books, but it is also the version engraved at the Lincoln Memorial in DC.

Out of all of the people who recited that speech, why do YOU think BO selected one of five versions that DIDN'T include those words? Why do YOU think he didn't adjust at the last minute to include them since he was one, if not THE, of the last people to recite it when he realized (or maybe just flat out didn't CARE enough to make the adjustment) that he would be the ONLY one to NOT include them? Perhaps not only did he NOT care, but he probably didn't even pay any attention to the others reciting it to realize that he would be the 'odd-man' out. The jerk flaunts his ego every chance he gets, Josh......only this time, he not only flaunted his ego in believing he's so much more superior than everyone else, but he thumbed his nose at the same time.

And, again.......you give him a pass.

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Let's see now, the numerous religious wars in Europe between
by Ziks511 / November 21, 2013 6:58 PM PST
In reply to: Knowing how vicious

various elements, factions, and sects of Christianity from the 11th Century forward, complete with levels of slaughter and inhumanity barely thought of by Muslims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_B%C3%A9ziers
(That's Be(accent aigue)ziers. Accent aigue is the one that slopes upward from left to right over top of the "e" As my French Prof explained, "Each of these accents is a little tombstone for a missing "s" or "z" following the "e" in Early French." not forgetting the "circonflex" or circumflex which looks like this ^.)

"Amalric's own version of the siege, described in his letter to Pope Innocent in August 1209 (col.139), states:

" While discussions were still going on with the barons about the release of those in the city who were deemed to be Catholics, the servants and other persons of low rank and unarmed attacked the city without waiting for orders from their leaders. To our amazement, crying "to arms, to arms!", within the space of two or three hours they crossed the ditches and the walls and Beziers was taken. Our men spared no one, irrespective of rank, sex or age, and put to the sword almost 20,000 people. After this great slaughter the whole city was despoiled and burnt...[4]"

"About twenty years later Caesarius of Heisterbach relates this story about the massacre,

" When they discovered, from the admissions of some of them, that there were Catholics mingled with the heretics they said to the abbot "Sir, what shall we do, for we cannot distinguish between the faithful and the heretics." The abbot, like the others, was afraid that many, in fear of death, would pretend to be Catholics, and after their departure, would return to their heresy, and is said to have replied "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius - Kill them. For the Lord knows who are His" (2 Tim. ii. 19) and so countless number in that town were slain." [Translation of Latin corrected by RTB]

This has been turned into "Kill them all, God will know his own."

Cathars were about the most innocuous group of people imaginable, a minority sect who sought to live "perfect" lives abjuring just about everything but worship and work and community activity, The even avoided sex.

But do continue haring off after your own pet hates. Perhaps it gives you exercise or something. It would be nice however if you actually had some knowledge to base your rants and ludicrous statements on. Maybe a little work with a Jefferson Bible, and a cheap and cheerful history of the Christian religion could be your starting place, before you put your foot in it in your next post.

There's a very good series you can buy used from Pelican called The History of the Early Church, or you could pick up Timothy Ware's book on the history of the Orthodox faith (which included Catholicism until about 1300 something, when Catholics adopted a change in the Credo which was an addition to the formerly universally accepted Credo of the Council of Nicea and put themselves beyond the pale for the true Orthodox faith. The word catholic means broad or wide ranging. I have catholic taste in music, and books, and learning, and just about everything. But being small "l" liberal, and small "c" catholic in my interests doesn't mean I pursue or tolerate big "R" sloppy poorly considered belief, or sloppy illogical arguments, or rank prejudice, or pre-digested Teapublican pap, so stop dishing it out. It makes me gag.

Rob

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Good grief...another blathering post
by TONI H / November 21, 2013 8:57 PM PST

I only have one pet hate......and you already know who it is....the man who believes he IS God and shows his belief on a daily basis.

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Your pet hates are numberless Toni as are your irrational.
by Ziks511 / November 21, 2013 9:56 PM PST

loves or adherences to the most retrograde political beliefs in America. If I read you aright you think it all went pear-shaped sometime in the late 19th Century, it must be pre-Roosevelt. That's Teddy Roosevelt, because I'm sure you don't approve of his trust busting and legislation which coddled workers by attempting to protect them from work-place injury and death.

I've been reading your blather for 10 years. though thanks for taking a break for a few years.

The point isn't to fire off an opinion with all the careful consideration of an accidental f*rt, it's to have an opinion based on something other than raw venom build-up. A little reason is a useful thing.

Rob

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don't forget to bow 5 times daily
by James Denison / November 21, 2013 11:03 PM PST

toward Obama.

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I'm sure God is used to people snubbing him by now.
by Ziks511 / November 21, 2013 6:08 PM PST
In reply to: BO snubs God again

He tolerated former Catholic Adolf Hitler for a very long time including 12 years in power, and ?former Orthodox seminary student? Josef Stalin for much longer than that (almost 30 years), and then there were all the Mongols who pillaged both Christian and Muslim countries, not forgetting China, which is named after the Mongol Chin dynasty. And all those deeply religious slave traders, and slave owners for centuries. One of the slave traders, and a sea Captain/Ship owner wrote Amazing Grace using an old English folk melody, praising God for "saving" him after all his years of un-Christian enrichment. Oddly he didn't mention any of the slaves he brought to the US. Or dropped overboard on the way across.

Barack Obama isn't even on His radar.

Explain to me how he falls outside the normal spectrum of believers? He's certainly not worse than all the folks who show up at church for Christmas and Easter, and maybe a wedding.

PS. Love your unimpeachable source.

Rob

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"A Christian is a man who prays on his knees on Sunday
by Ziks511 / November 21, 2013 7:27 PM PST

and preys on his neighbours the other 6 days of the week." Anonymous.

Tom Pendergast, mayor of Kansas City Kansas, and not the author of the quotation was an outrageously corrupt exemplar of Machine Politics, who attended mass every day, then went to work as the Mayor, handing out favours and contracts and collecting bribes and pay-offs and kick-backs. This was very good for the Jazz and Club scene in Kansas City, and very bad for just about everyone else.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Pendergast

And Dogans are Christians too, says the lapsed Presbyterian.

Rob

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