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Blu-Ray Disk Dead?

I have been following audio and video trends for over twenty years, and just recently came across an article called "Is Blu-Ray dead?" I found it very interesting and it stated truths for me that hit home.
1. Blu-Ray discs and players are too expensive?
2. Upscaling DVDs are of comparable quality to Blu-Ray (not equal but close enough for the mass market).
3. FIOS provides all the necessary variety now.
4. Thanks to the Format wars, the introduction of upscaled DVDs caught on and consumers don't want to pay more for very little increase in quality.

I know they are working on bringing prices down, but I feel it is too late after the format wars people have moved on and are accepting upscaled DVDs as the new norm, and are happy about it.

Any thoughts or disagreements on this?

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(NT) Oh boy, wait till Josten gets here!

In reply to: Blu-Ray Disk Dead?

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WAS THAT A STATEMENT OR QUESTION???

In reply to: Oh boy, wait till Josten gets here!

SONY IS ALMOST GIVING AWAY BLU-RAY ON ITS NEW "JS" LINE OF DESKTOPS.[JS-160, JS-190]

PERSONALLY, I FEEL MANY FOLKS ARE MISSING THE BIGGER PICTURE.

BLU-RAY WILL REPLACE THE COMMON DVD AS SOFTWARE MEDIA. WITH ITS TREMENDOUS

AMOUNT OF DATA STORAGE, BLU-RAY TECHNOLOGY WILL BE THE NEXT MEDIA OF CHOICE.

Best to all,

RIVER.

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ANYONE REMEMBER THE "CD" AS THE ULTIMATE MEDIA????????

In reply to: WAS THAT A STATEMENT OR QUESTION???

SORRY, I DIDN'T THINK YOU DID EITHER!!!


RIVER.

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A lot of generalizations

In reply to: Blu-Ray Disk Dead?

There seems to be a lot of assumptions about upscaled DVD being "good enough". This makes me ask: "Wasn't 480p good enough? Wasn't 720p good enough? Wasn't 1080i good enough?" I think the whole HD transition is still young and I think the majority of people still haven't enjoyed the benefits of HD. When they do, I think a lot of people might begin to ask how much better can their viewing experience get, and then then this might get people to investigate the BluRay discs. The "mass market" is a tough group, and sometimes they aren't the brightest bulbs in the group. This is why Costco has a very large sign displayed in their TV department that says "You must subscribe to an HD service to get an HD picture on any HDTV."

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Oh, now I am hurt,

In reply to: A lot of generalizations

that's hitting below the belt. Are they just tough or are they just not too bright...hehe?

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Disk Crasher

In reply to: Blu-Ray Disk Dead?

People are landing Sony and Pansonic bluray players for $200-250 just this week, with or without free BD promotions.

Bluray is a little over 2 years old right now. About 2.3-2.4 y.o.?

With the above in mind, bluray is cheaper than DVD at the same respective age.

Transformers has the same MSRP b/w the two.

So do all Criterion titles.

As for real world prices, they are a lot more similar than you think. I just watched episode 3 of Band of Brothers last night. People are getting the box set on BD for $45-55. The DVD set is $45. The difference in PQ is night and day. Also greater and more refined color palette, plus DTS Master Audio to boot. And the funny thing is that BoB is not nearly a perfect transfer, with video inconsistency.... but the difference is still profound. The DVD has a poor enough transfer, that if they actually released a VHS version, that would be closer to DVD, than DVD to BD.

Godfather collection $60, if not less. Yep, the Coppola restoration.

Bluray players can already upconvert to 1080p just fine. So, would you rather buy a decent upconerting player for $200, or a decent upconverting player that also plays Bluray for $200?

DVD at the same respective age did not have catalogue titles at $14.95 at the time.

DVD is natively recorded in 480i. Bluray is natively recorded in 1080p. You also get to enjoy 24 fps if your display can handle it. Guess what, current display are making this commonplace. Heck, even with LCD displays, ever wonder why they chose 120hz? common denominator of 60 and 24.

The ONLY stumbling block that I can see for BD is DRM. However, I believe that even this issue is overblown, and this would be the case for any new format that comes about. This includes digital downloads as well, and to be sure, people anticipate DRM issues of a much more sinister nature once that ever becomes commonplace.

I say overblown, because every BD works great for me. I've updated FW only twice. The first time had NOTHING to do with DRM issues, but simply to fix an LFE cut. The last update was only for the hell of it. I updated at versions 1.6 and 2.5. I did not update for 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 1.8, 2.2, 2.3, 2.4, 2.5. I never need to.

To say that the increase in picture quality is minimal cannot be farther from the truth. Its not even close. In the slightest. Differences are utterly profound.

Of course, that's easy for me to say with a 159" display in light controlled dedicated home theater, coupled with quality projector.

Anyways, I have maintained for over a year that any purchase of a DVD that is also released on BD is an utter waste of money.

Here are some comparative screen caps from one very trusted source. An AVS poster nmed Xylon. His caps are definitely the most trusted as far as online forums, because his methods are of a purely controlled nature, with the aid of his computer. A few recent threads:

***I have also listed Amazon prices, for comparison. I could shop *as best I could* but I think Amazon is a good indicator of typical price difference******

Baraka. Scroll to post 3 to see DVD vs BD. $17 vs $21.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1082785

Doomsday. $14/$27 vs $27
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1055405

How the West Was Won (improvements are insane). $16/$42 vs $24.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1067722

Iron Man. $23 vs $26
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1070952

______________________________________________________________

From Bluray Stats, presently:

979 titles available
56.91 % are used on a 50 gigabyte disc (and ALWAYS rising)
72.27% come with lossless audio
*The overwhelming majority are selling brand new at less than $20.
http://www.blu-raystats.com/Stats/Stats.php


So, Disk_Crasher:

1. Not too expensive.
2. Not even close. Attribute that to ignorance. (some people think using an HDMI cable automatically means "Full HD"! lol
3. uhhhh, no comment....
4. Read #2. Remember DVD is natively 480, and Bluray is natively 1080.

Bluray is only two years old?!?!?!?!


How many of us had DVD players at just two years old?????

***The percentage increase of vertical lines of resolution of BD over DVD is greater than DVD over VHS!!!!

***VHS did not die until 8 years after the release of DVD. So just because DVD is still around does not mean its the better purchase. I would rather buy DVD than VHS if given a choice.

Any thoughts or disagreements on this?

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Blu-Ray on life support?

In reply to: Disk Crasher

You all have done quite well in pointing out the strong points of blu-ray, but I feel you do not represent the average consumer, and I am sure you will agree that you are more obsessed? My main emphasis is that as a consumer with a 40" Sony (yes I know that is quite small compared to your TVs) and an upconverting DVD player, I am happy with the quality. In fact I would go so far to say that with my 40 year old eyes, I don't think I would see a difference in quality that I would be willing to shell out big bucks for.

I am pretty confident that the average consumer will not care to pay the difference in quality even if it does come down, because the DVD players and TVs will also continue to come down in price. One item of bias on my part is I have had DVDs from the beginning, and don't plan on replacing the 1500 in my collection.

Here is the article I read, and I do agree with 85% percent of it.
http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=365

One last thing, you are all commended for keeping your tone friendly and professional and respecting others opinions. Didn't say you had to agree of course Happy

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.

In reply to: Blu-Ray on life support?

In fact I would go so far to say that with my 40 year old eyes

Are your eyes REALLY that bad? Did you even look at the screen shots I took the time to link???

I don't think I would see a difference in quality that I would be willing to shell out big bucks for.

Let's see here:

Sony S350 $223
Sony S300 $217
Panasonic BD-35 $259
Panasonic BD-30 $241
Insignia BDP $230

Free shipping on all the above.

The latest Oppo DVD player is $399. It will not hold a candle to a decent BD transfer. Period. Now, if you got 1500 DVDs, I might invest in such a DVD player.

but I feel you do not represent the average consumer, and I am sure you will agree that you are more obsessed?

I've educated the average consumer as much as anyone else. Ask those whom I've personally helped just here. The average consumer doesn't know that you need HD service to get an HD picture. The average consumer thinks that if anything, whether display or receiver, happens to say "HDMI" on it, that they will automatically have native high definition.

I will tell you what WILL happen. Once they buy that HDTV, they WILL WANT hi def. People don't buy 1080p displays to feed 480i sources. They buy 1080p displays to feed 1080p sources.

But its not we who are strangely obsessed. It is YOU

Who else has 1500 DVDs? More to the point, there is no need to replace them. However, for any new release, I still maintain the opinion that buying the DVD version is a waste of money, if the bluray is available. (for those who owned VHS and DVD for a while, wouldn't you agree that buying the VHS would be the improper choice if the DVD version was available?????????????)

If ever Bluray dies and is useless, all of your DVDs will already have shared the same fate.

There is no other physical format even on the horizon.

Now, if you want to wait another 10 years or so for the next best thing, please be my guest. As for me, life is too short.

Remember, physical media sales of film is a multi-billion dollar industry. Bluray does not HAVE to overtake DVD to be a completely successful business. Even with just a relatively small market share, could they live prosperously. However, take a look at Amazon's database, and you will note that its growth is STILL increasing in relation to DVD. In fact, its going to be impossible to maintain THIS GROWTH. It will HAVE to slow down. But the point of all this is that its GROWING, and NOT DYING. sheesh.

Hardly dead. That's like saying that since your 2 year old kid isn't three feet tall yet, he's going to be either a midget, or worse yet, die a quick death. The kid is STILL GROWING, and NOT DYING.

I will repeat, again, probably for about the 5th at time at CNET alone, that Bluray is more affordable than DVD at the same age. Heck, even blank VHS tapes were $20 at first.
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Blu ray IS selling better....

In reply to: .

then DVD was at the sametime (age).

Blu Ray players are cheaper then DVD players at the same age. I paid $220 for my last Blu ray player, a samsung 1500 (last month) + I got the matrix trilogy ($75) with it free. My 1st dvd player that I got was in Xmas 1997 was $240 & no free move.

Blu Ray sales # have past the 20 years sales # of laserdiscs.

get your eye checked. I am 28 I can see the diffrences on my 30" WD HD CRT & a big diffrence in my 50" tv. It is that or you need to calibrate your tv!!!!!!!!

I have over 500 dvd's, they ALL play in my samsungbd-p1200 & SamsungBD-p1500.

FIOS.. that's better then cable & DVD, that is if you live in an area that has it!!!!!!!!!! But it is still has Compressed HD video & lacks the HD audio's

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Blu-Ray more!

In reply to: Blu ray IS selling better....

Well to address the difference in quality viewed, I still stand by there being very little difference in Blu-Ray and DVD on a 40" screen. I did view the screenshots on your referenced links. Yes the quality is outstanding on the Blu-Ray vs the DVD, but I have a hard time believing that there is not something missing in this comparison. (This also proves my 40 year old eyes are not so bad!) I have looked at my own TV with an upsampled DVD and they have never looked as bad as in the examples shown on that page for DVDs. I have never said they were equal, but something smells funny in this comparison.

I ask you the same question, have you read the article I referenced? Don't you feel that Blu-Ray will never penetrate the market before direct distribution through the Internet becomes common?

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Like I said already

In reply to: Blu-Ray more!

his screen caps are the most trusted anywhere online that I have ever found.

The trust given to him is absolute by all.

Trust me, a lot of others post screen caps, and they are immediately dismissed. A LOT LOT LOT of folks think that screen caps are the most misleading thing there is.... except in the case of Xylon's.

Now as far as bad looking pic, the bluray suffers identically. Its often said that if a pic doesn't look so great, that in motion certain things will be not noticed so easily. Im not talking about Bluray-only threads, btw.

Don't take my word for it. Go ask them in the AVS forum.

you've been following AV for 20 years? For me its only been 2 years.

There is nothing funny with the comparisons. His caps, again, are the most trusted there are on the world wide web. To the best of knowledge. If you can find better trusted screen caps, please do link it here. I'd love to share with others.

What other AV forums do you visit? Please do tell.

Here's one recent argument over a similar topic. You'll notice I post now and then, but Im not really adding so much. Like you, I obviously don't know a whole lot.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47695

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sigh

In reply to: Like I said already

these arguments are soooooooo pointless.

You should come over to my place sometime. You would poop yer pants if you saw the pic.

You've never seen anything like it. No one has... among anyone I personally know.

This includes a 10 yr employee of Panasonic, and a film director who was just inducted to the Director's Guild this year.

Yeah, big deal, I bought a $300 bluray player, and $3000 projector. A lot of people have posted here who spent as much on their flat panel. Maybe more in fact.

It wouldn't look half as good without native high-definition sources. No, I don't even count TV broadcasts due to the insane compression.

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HD vs. BD

In reply to: Like I said already

I think what you are missing is it's not hd were talking about it's the delivery medium.I can get a blank dvd for next to nothing compared to a blue ray at $20.00+ a piece.I have a hd camera and abut the only way to practically share is to upload to a suitable site such as Viemo.Just as I-Tunes is changing the way people obtain music content.Converging the computer into the entertainment center is going to have a huge impact on how people obtain source content.Already LG is advertising a dedicated appliance for down loading hd content from the web and others are probably waiting in the wings.So it's not some new physical medium it's a whole new approach.

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The missing something is not an equitable comparison.

In reply to: Blu-Ray more!

We are comparing jpeg not video and also dvd probably not upconverted. So let you eye be the guide; if you feel it's not worth the extra bucks to you then keep that money in your wallet.

I was one of those that bought a laser disc player at about $600. Now I look back and said what was I doing..must be out of my mind. The reality is I had the money then for such foolishness. I never ask myself if it was worth it or not.

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Well, do you have a 1080i display?

In reply to: Blu-Ray more!

I'd be inclined to agree with you if you bought one of the earlier plasma panels which were 720P resolution; these models didn't get the advantage of Blu-Ray the way that the newer 1080P models do. But a 40" TV, that's typical of an LCD, and those were 1080P a lot earlier than plasmas were, so you probably would see a difference. Maybe not enough to make you go "wow," but a definite difference.

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BD Titles growing exponentially

In reply to: Well, do you have a 1080i display?

When the BD section is almost as large as the regular DVD section that should tell you something. As far as pricing the big box stores have been selling BD's ~ $19, a far cry from $30+, and continue to drop.

Also the price of large panels are dropping every day, upgrading to a 50" + panel a few years ago would be unthinkable for most, now it's doable, and size does matter ...

The average Joe Blow will definitely be able to discern the difference between 480 and 1080 content as well as a standard DVD upscaled versus a BD.

Blue Ray basically has become the default medium having beat out HD, Sony got this one right after the Beta / VHS disaster.

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Its not Sony, its Panasonic

In reply to: BD Titles growing exponentially

who owns all, or nearly all, of the BD patents.

I think their vested interest has got them to produce the best BD players at their respective price points.

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lossless + uncompressed

In reply to: Blu-Ray Disk Dead?

Streaming HD content is cute and all, but it is ALL compressed which kills the quality of the audio and video.

Yes, the average consumer might not have a great surround sound system to really hear the awesomeness from lossless sound, but that option to enjoy that feature is always available. The HD stuff you can get from iTunes would sound awful on even a mid-range surround sound system.

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Now ...now

In reply to: lossless + uncompressed

I've got an Apple TV and the HD movies don't look or sound awful. In fact, 720p downloads look and sound better than DVD's upscaled on my OPPO. They also look better than the 1080i movies I've watched through Time Warner's On Demand. Having said that, I certainly wouldn't make the claim that they look or sound as good as Blu ray. In fact, I'm sure they don't.

Rusty

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Too right the disks are expensive

In reply to: Blu-Ray Disk Dead?

My brother in law talked me into buying a new notebook with Blu Ray. I'd never heard of it before. Looked it up, sounded good, thought I ought to keep up with technology if I was getting a new notebook anyway, and now I have an Acer Aspire 6920 with Blu Ray. Awesome stuff - if only I had good enough eyesight to appreciate it! I'm pretty short sighted and middle aged to boot, so I can't get the full benefit of the sharp pictures.
Of course when I went to the store and realised that Blu Ray DVDs were almost twice as expensive as ordinary ones in many cases I decided that this was one advance in technology I could live without. I can't justify the additional expense to myself, when I can happily view an ordinary DVD and be just as entertained.

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BR $$ and PC viewing

In reply to: Too right the disks are expensive

If you are using a notebook PC to view BR discs, then I'd wonder if you are getting ANY benefit from the BR format. In fact, what was the reason for buying a notebook with a BluRay drive in the first place? I have a 55" TV and the difference between standard DVD and BluRay is very obvious, but watching on a notebook...?? Yes the cost of BR discs is more than standard DVDs, but on newly-released titles there is hardly any price difference. I still buy standard DVDs, especially when I can buy an older title for $5.99, and I still enjoy the quality of 480p. But on a larger 1080p display, the difference is jawdropping.

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Blu-Ray --- It's ALIVE!!!

In reply to: Blu-Ray Disk Dead?

Blu-Ray has grown faster than DVD or CD did when they began. Its growth has been hampered by several factors, though, that are only now beginning to clear up, to wit:

1. That INSANE format war between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, now over.

2. The fact that Hi-Def TV is also in its infancy. Nobody needs Blu-Ray if they haven't got an HDTV. This will certainly begin to rectify itself after February 17 when U.S. TV goes all digital.

3. To an uncritical eye, regular DVDs are "good enough," at least until a person is exposed to Blu-Ray 1080p content.

4. The price of BD players, until just the past couple of weeks, had stubbornly refused to fall below the $400 range. If market penetration was Sony's goal, this was just stupid, particularly when DVD players, with their similar manufacturing costs, can be had for less than $20 sometimes.

5. Some of the content that would actually spur people to spring for BD players has not yet been released on Blu-Ray. This includes "Star Wars," "Lord of the Rings," the earlier Indiana Jones movies, HBO's magnificent "Rome," and too many other desirable titles with high visual content to list. I'll wager that sales will spike in anticipation of next year's release of LoTR. Star Wars would do even better.

But, even given these impediments, Blu-Ray is beginning to thrive robustly now. It also has a bright future, particularly as a computer peripheral. See, in the lab, it has been demonstrated that the format can grow significantly through multiple layering. I have heard tell of 50 layers and more. Not only will this be able to deal with ever-higher resolutions for visual content, it will be a very nearly ideal form of removable storage if the price of blank disks can be brought within reason (which it currently isn't).

I don't think Blu-Ray is going away any time soon. It may outlive VHS, or even cellulose/bakelite/vinyl, as the tangible media format of choice.

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Blu-ray rocks!

In reply to: Blu-Ray Disk Dead?

I would have to say that blu-ray rocks and is hear for quite awhile. Personally I don't have any other way to see 1080p movies at home without a blu-ray player. The picture quality is much better than DVD. I think it's worth the price (what the player is like 150-200 and the movies are like 20... big deal). Also for some movies I want to have a physical medium... not just a file on a computer somewhere (hard drives do crash from time to time).

Plus I need a format for my computer that holds more than 4.5gb (or whatever DVD's hold). I have lots of photos and videos and I need a disc with more capacity.

blu-ray is great!

-peter

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I absolutely must disagree

In reply to: Blu-Ray Disk Dead?

Blu-ray is picking up momentum here in Australia. Brand-name players (Sony & Samsung) are being sold below the $400 mark. There's now at least one no-name Blu-ray player selling for $299. I'm talking Australian money here, which is lower value compared to the US dollar.

Add the huge response to the PS3 and Blu-ray Player giveaways earlier this year (free through redemption with full-HD Sony and Samsung TVs) and you've got heaps of Blu-ray players out there hooked up to full-HD TVs.

Sony ran a pretty half-arsed ad campaign to get people to buy Blu-ray players along with their TVs, but since the price war on the players has intensified it's a much easier add-on sale. Even smaller stores now have HDMI distribution amplifiers hooked up to their TVs to show the increased quality of Blu-ray 1080p.

Increased quality? Definitely. If you can't see it on a 40 inch full-HD TV, then you must be blind; I can see it on my 17 inch computer monitor that is only 1,024 lines. You must have a Blu-ray disc that has been filmed with a good quality camera; older movies don't gain much quality over DVD, and even Rocky Balboa doesn't look that great; but many movies with mixed live-action and CGI look fantastic because they've been filmed with the right equipment.

Australian retailers are now increasing their range of Blu-ray discs too. Interestingly enough, you can't get concerts on Blu-ray yet (in the early days of DVD, the concert DVDs were very popular in my household!), but I'm sure it will come.

And upscaled DVDs? Well, TVs in America have poorer picture quality generally than what you see on TVs in the Australian market; but even so you should definitely see a massive difference. It's not so much a case of "Can you tell the difference between Blu-ray and upscaled DVD" as "Can you tell the difference between upscaled DVD and native DVD"!

Blu-ray has a bright future ahead of it. No doubt at all. The "format war" wasn't much of a war either, down here, and only a handful of people were pushed towards upscaled DVD... they will eventually buy Blu-ray players. After all, the format wars between DVD-R / +R / -RAM do not dissuade people from buying DVD recorders, do they?

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Final thought

In reply to: I absolutely must disagree

I am glad everyone was able to give their opinion. The conversation did slide at times to things I had not originally disagreed with.

Is Blu-Ray better then upconverted DVD? Yes, never said it wasn't.

Is a videophile going to see a huge difference and feel the extra money is worth it? Yes, no doubt.

Is the average consumer with a new HD TV and an upscaled DVD player going to want to pay extra to get the Blu-Ray experience? No, I still don't think so, and that is OK for 80% percent of the consumers to be satisfied with upconverted DVDs. Of course I hope you higher level players understand, not everyone is looking for a perfect picture.

and "3rdalbum" your comment "TVs in America have poorer picture quality generally than what you see on TVs in the Australian market" I can honestly say I don't know what quality the TVs are in Australia, but I thought they were all made in the same three asian countries.

As the cost of Blu-Ray comes down will the average consumer replace their DVD player with a Blu-Ray Disc Player? Yes, but they will not switch over to Blu-Ray just for Blu-Rays sake but to be ready for the future.

Final words, I enjoy watching movies, I will upgrade to Blu-Ray when (or if) the prices, quality, and quantity are worth it to me, it's a personal decision. And after watching the audio/video market for 20+ years I see this as just another phase that may or may not be here in five years, but I am willing to wait this one out for a while.

Happy Viewing!

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R.I.P. for Blu-Ray?

In reply to: Blu-Ray Disk Dead?

If Blu-Ray technology is not selling heavily in the stores, it's their own fault. In 1994, my neighbor was an executive for DADC (Digital Audio Disc Corp). Sony-DADC are huge manufacturers of AV's for the popular market, distributing them to retailers and through Columbia House. The neighbor's 1994 computer, purchased through the employees' company store, had Blu-Ray tech then. I recall asking "what the heck is Blu-Ray?" and watching the market since that time for its public release. In my estimation, the tech was too advanced in 1994 and shelved for later release. (Recall that in 1994 a 1K program was HUGE for home PCs, as a development stage comparative.) Unfortunately, it seems video advances, cheap DVDs and such came along to produce such nice HD quality that the unreleased Blu-Ray had to come out now or be obsolete. To me, it looks like a case of 'you snooze you lose'. Grandpa was just tooo slow at grasping the market edge.

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Blu Ray - Alive and Kicking and Getting Better

In reply to: Blu-Ray Disk Dead?

I certainly disagree with some of the comments listed in this thread. Blu Ray is so much better than 480p upscaled. Long distance and medium focus camera shots are where higher resolutions benefit over DVD.

Many DVD movies have edge enhancement which is artificial sharpness applied to make them look more detailed than they really are but Blu Ray does not need such sharpening applied and the best releases have none.

I run a site here http://www.darkrealmfox.com/film_reviews/ and you can cleary see from the screencaps i take that Blu Ray is superior and more detailed than even the very best DVD.

I know this is an older topic but thank god the format war is over and we have a high definition winner.

I view on a 104inch screen using a full 1080p projector and an Oppo Blu Ray player and i can tell you upscaled DVD is not anywhere near the quality of even the worst Blu Ray titles.

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You did notice that this thread is over 2 year old?

In reply to: Blu Ray - Alive and Kicking and Getting Better

A lot has changed in that time obviously.

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This stuff usualy comes from???

In reply to: Blu-Ray Disk Dead?

The same people that said the world was going to end in 2000(now 2012)based on all sorts of FUD.
The DVD didn't have any real competition when it came out, the BR-DVD did, remember the format wars of just two years ago?
I know that the concept of movies on demand is growing, why own why you can just cal it up on demand? Well so far it's just not the same.
I have netflix and I can watch many movies instantly on my PC, I have done it a few times. The quality is not there I feel like I'm watching VHS movie.

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