41 total posts
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General comment first
Two people who desire to share their bodies with each other should share equally in desirable and undesirable outcomes that occur from such unions. This means financially, emotionally, respectfully and more.
hopefully this isn't a repeat.
I know this one won't go over well
I cannot support the idea of "my body, my decision" as a blanket rule. I cannot reconcile that a man who fathers a child has, in any and all cases, no say so in whether or not a conceived child shall be carried to term. Certainly two people who are married or living together like a married couple are not the same as two who just pass each other in the night. In a relationship that professes love between them, any abortion decision should be agreed upon by both. If there is disagreement, I'd pass the tie breaker to the unborn child and a non-response from the child defaults to "life".
I've not seen a poll that most men here are in favor of abortion due to lack of the effectiveness of birth control methods. You might want to rephrase the first part of your opening statement so as to not join abortion and birth control into one thought. I believe, though there are some relationships, the two can be discussed separately.
RE: but when the hell do the MEN
but when the hell do the MEN take responsibility and get vasectomies?
Sounds like someone would like to perform a few.
MEN?........... Take responsibility?............ hahahahahaha!
actually, I suggested long ago, that it should be decided...
... by a national referendum, where only women would be able to vote. That puts 100% of the question of legality in the hands of women.
I think your attempt to suggest abortion is a type of casual birth control in peoples minds is misleading and ill-founded. Ask any woman you meet... "Is abortion the same thing as a vasectomy?"
I have never met a woman who has thought that abortion was the same as taking a birth control pill, buying a condom, or even a tubal ligation. Suggesting that men should choose a vasectomy as an everyday form of birth control is akin to saying that stomach stapling is an everyday solution to being overweight. The idea ignores all the other forms of weight control, chief of which is EDUCATION about dietary requirements and health. Education should also be the first form of birth control too, but of course, the same people who are against abortion are also against reproductive education.
I'm not suggesting anything of the sort
that abortions is a type of casual birth control....I'm looking at the numbers themselves, and it suggests that it IS.
and that's only the stats on Planned Parenthood. There are other organizations that do abortions as well
Consequently, I have to come to my own conclusion that abortion IS considered by many to be a method of birth control and it is included in my list of methods.
That said....I also believe that a vasectomy IS also an option for men who still have the opinion that it is a woman's responsibility to make sure that while he is dipping into that pool that an unborn child, with all the financial responsibilities that go along with it, will not come back to bite him for child support. For some reason, this isn't even considered to be something to discuss/debate, but they scream the loudest in a courtroom when child support is sued for when the woman goes on welfare because the state wants reimbursement from the father, even to the tune of losing their driving privileges or having wages garnished, or a tax refund withheld. If they want no responsibility for their actions, this surgery is a way to prevent that....they can always freeze their sperm ahead of time for the future.
RE: dipping into that pool
Around here, If you have a pool, there are requirements of a 6' high fence around the pool.
If the guy won't have the operation...keep the gate closed.
Let us look at some actual, verifiable numbers...
Overall, 62% of an estimated total 62 million US women of a potentially sexually active demographic (sum total ages 15 to 44) are currently using a method of birth control. That is 38.4 million women.
This leaves approximately 23.6 million total US women aged 15-44 who are not using any form of prophylactic birth control.
The numbers above do not account for how many women are celibate or sterile in the total demographic. The source I cite above suggests that a sum total of approximately 30 percent of all US women may not be capable of pregnancy.
Planned Parenthood performed 329,445 abortions in 2010. That would mean that 1% of women out of 23.6 million use planned parenthood abortions if all abortions were had by women who use no prophylactic birth control at all.
The CDC reports that 825,564 abortions were performed in 2008 (the last complete year statistics appear to be available for). That would mean that 3% of women who use no prophylactic form of birth control depend on abortion... that is assuming that 23.6 million women who don't use any form of birth control are sexually active too.
These numbers do not break down which women had abortions for medical reasons and which women had abortions because they use abortion as a casual form of birth control as anti-abortion might want to suggest.
Interesting observation about the numbers provided by Planned Parenthood and Toni's challenge that men should choose sterilization over other forms of birth control. In 2010... 605 women used PP services to get sterilized and 3,290 men did the same. That is a 1 to 5.4 ratio.
None of these statistics indicate how often men provide birth control. However, I would point out that women have multiple methods of prophylactic birth control available to them (other than sterilization) and men have only one (to the best of my knowledge).
2 methods - don't forget condoms.
I was talking about condoms.
have multiple methods of prophylactic birth control available to them (other than sterilization)
In any case, I can't see where you have made a case that people consider abortion as a casual form of birth control. I think that even the most obtuse recognize it for what it is... a choice of last resort that is given long consideration before implementation.
I should say I was addressing Toni when I said "you"
You do know.....
.....that vasectomies are permanent, right?
I don't see how you can lump a (usually) irreversible surgical procedure with a condom.
And men can pay for pills just as easily as women can pay for condoms.
You can find reading that some may be reversible through a complex procedure. As well,
about 1% of them fail to prevent pregnancy
If you want the job to last, you have to do it right. Like the store liquidation sign says. "Everything Must Go!". But look on the bright side. You can throw that cup away.
And you do know
that sperm can be frozen ahead of time to be used later, right? And yet men seem to forget that a tubal ligation is also (usually) irriversible but is still given as a 'casual' option for birth control. I'd love to see a poll about how many men actually buy the pill for their lady. From my personal experience I've found that most times, men are very comfortable with having the woman be the one responsible for making sure she doesn't get pregnant, and almost immediately have the reaction of 'being tricked' when it fails. Women, for the most, shoulder all of that responsibility, even though today more men are more knowledgeable and more acceptable to at least using condoms than in prior history....but I believe also that more men are using condoms to prevent an STD than they are to prevent an unwanted pregnancy.
Men who own male dogs are also more likely to not have them neutered (I remember reading a survey about that a few years back in some magazine sitting around in an office somewhere).....I guess it's another example of "it's a man thing". Just the thought of somebody messing with their 'junk' makes them go pale, and that thought carries over to their pet.
RE: Just the thought of somebody messing with their 'junk'
Just the thought of somebody messing with their 'junk' makes them go pale
Doesn't bother Bob (have your pet spayed or neutered) Barker.
IF the man is going to pay for the pill he should also supervise the taking of the pill. Less chance of "being tricked/surprised"
The thought of messing with SOME womans junk makes ME go pale.
and we only have to look at the number of single mothers not just in the US and UK but everywhere in the world, which frankly tells me that men in general tend to be irresponsible about birth control and then when pregnancy happens, refuse to accept their responsibilities.
I know some will say that it takes two, and that is right, but it is always the woman who has to answer for the consequences, whether the man shares the responsibility or runs away.
May be that was fine when we were savages and spreading our genes around like other male animals, but we have moved on now. We have society and culture and it is time we men grew up. Women have to very early on in their lives. We tend not to.
None of that changes the fact....
.....that you're trying to equate a surgical procedure with a condom.
I'd be interested in knowing the "somewhere" that story about male animal neutering came from. I've had several male cats and had no reservations about getting any of them fixed.
I'm not equating
a surgical procedure with a condom. I'm pointing out that most men feel that a tubal ligation or abortion is an acceptable and casual birth control method and both of those are surgical procedures, but because it's a woman who undergoes that method, it's okay, when they won't also see a vasectomy which is a lot less invasive is also an option. Do you disagree?
I never met anyone who thought tubal ligation was fine but vasectomy was not. And tubal ligation is no more "casual" than vasectomy is, being that both are surgical procedures intended to permanently prevent pregnancy.
And no, most men (and most women) do not consider abortion an acceptable and casual means of birth control.
I really don't know where you get this stuff, Toni.
I get this 'stuff'
from the numbers that appear in my original link regarding how many abortions are done in this country on an annual basis....those numbers are reported by the agencies themselves that are doing them. And it appears, at least to me, that abortions are becoming a 'casual' method of birth control in today's society......whether that decision is heart-wrenching or not, that decision is being made at an alarming rate.
Sure, there are people who treat it that way
But your claim that "most men" find that acceptable is something you pulled out of thin air.
From my experiences
from talking with women since before the 60's when Roe v Wade went into effect, when a woman/girl told a man she was pregnant, the first reaction 'most' men/boys had was to find out how to get rid of it.....it wasn't usually, "OK, let's get married and have a family". I'm sorry, Josh, but your supposition that 'most' men don't think of abortion is acceptable is just plain bull. Now if that reaction was there even BEFORE Roe v Wade, you can bet your butt that the same reaction has increased dramatically because now abortions are readily available.
....most men considered abortion an acceptable means of birth control. Birth control is a means of preventing pregnancy. Show me where most men take the attitude of "let's just have unprotected sex and you can have an abortion if you get pregnant." That would be an "acceptable means of birth control," Toni. I know that when I was dating, and even after I got married but before we were ready to start a family, we never took that attitude.
Are a majority of men pro-choice? I'd guess so (the majority of women are) but I don't have numbers.
Rather than betting my butt, how about showing me some numbers.
You can't just look at numbers
You have to look at things like the same woman having multiple abortions. That would be a clue that she treats it as a means of birth control. I'm not sure how you would determine how many men feel that way about it.
I didn't realize we were talking about Russia and China.
Also keep in mind....
.....that women have abortions for many reasons, including rape, incest, finding out the baby will have severe birth defects, the pregnancy may put the woman's life at severe risk, etc. etc. You can't just count the number of abortions and conclude that most of them are being done casually.
the numbers presented by the CDC...
... from my link above, were substantially less (by about 600,000) than the numbers your links gave.
Which statistics are to be believed? An agency that has no stake in assisting or preventing abortion... or sources that are vehemently against abortion?
If the CDC gets their numbers
from agencies like Planned Parenthood, I don't doubt for a minute that they cook their books to report far fewer to the CDC than what they actually do.
I don't doubt that you don't doubt it
It would be a felony and would cost them all their government funding, but yet you still think they'd willingly do it.
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