Bill Gates: America's high schools are failing our students

Unfortunately, kids seem to be conditioned that they are "entitled" to a college education and don't want to have to do any work.

In terms of companies doing this, however, it again goes back to the HS graduate having SOME marketable skills that would allow them to be qualified for an entry level job. But in most fields, the company does better to invest in the internal training and development of the employee rather than pay tuition at some institution of higher learning.

I much prefer college loans that can be forgiven with employment in the field after graduation. Less risk and more incentive. IOW, there is a shortage of teachers in certain areas, then teachers will have their student loans forgiven (or tuition paid out of pocket reimbursed) if they work for X number of years in a given school system, etc. The student has already proven some degree of responsibility and seriousness by taking on the loans/tuition and completing the degree. If their education is paid for outright, the students tend to drift towards doing only what is required to graduate, and will be far more likely to only make the minimum requirements to "pay back". I see it every day

Evie

Any kid that wants a college education can get one. The problem is that the High Schools aren't turning out kids that are even prepared for college anymore. A large chunk of occupations do not require a college education, and a high school education used to prepare kids for these jobs. The falling by the wayside of the vocational high schools is more of a problem even for the 21st Century than Gates' lament that we need to rethink: We have to do away with the outdated idea that only some students need to be ready for college and that the others can walk away from higher education and still thrive in our 21st century society. An odd statement coming from a college dropout, IMO. Depending on what one wants to do in life, a college degree is not needed ... or it shouldn't be. Even in the 21st century, we STILL have skilled trades and a booming retail sector that generally doesn't hire out of the college ranks preferentially. Gates laments that high schools don't prepare kids for college, work and citizenship, but then focuses too much on college being the only road to success. IMO, this notion that college for all would cure all the ills of our workforce has CREATED this ill in the high schools. No longer are they being held accountable for churning out graduates prepared to at least cope in the real world -- they have colleges for that now

Every kid entering a college degree program should visit the student employment office before signing on, and find out what kinds of employment prospects are out there for them upon graduation. Far too many have a hefty loan balance, and unless they go on for yet more higher education, have no marketable degree -- the majority end up going into retail. Retailers rarely scour the college Business/Management BA rosters to fill their management needs, they train and promote from within or hire those with management experience from another retailer. Look at Monster.com for the ads for some retailers -- HS Grad is all that is required and a college degree only counts for some indication of being a "serious" employee. A work history counts the same. It is sad how many college grads are among the ranks of the hourly employees in retail. In the short term, this may include some from the science/technical field, but this is largely those that got BA's in unmarketable or nebulous fields like History, Psychology, Business, or General Anything. They would be far better off having saved the $$$ on a college education, and putting in the four years generating a work history of responsible behavior, and making $ (OK, not much, but if you're not making babies and either living at home or with a roommate - or 2 - it's a start!) to work their way up the management ladder.

There really needs to be some re-thinking of the "norm" of HS -> college full time -> full-time career fast-track progression in life. Even in "my day" that wasn't the case, although the push had already begun. Yes it works for many, but for just as many, if not more, it doesn't work. Excuse me, but if at 18 y.o.a. someone is unable to afford college, what is so wrong about living at home for an extra year or two and getting a JOB! It doesn't cost a lot for a kid to live at home for a few more years while they get their act together. And they can save most of their income towards an education. It's nothing short of miraculous what that does for the kids attitude towards paying for and being serious about their educations!! I had a discussion with one of my RN students the other night about this. She didn't know what she wanted to do and her parents weren't about to pay the tuition for a "general studies" program (you would be surprised how many kids/parents throw almost $100K down the drain after a Bachelors in General Studies or Liberal Arts ). So she got a job and took a few classes at Community College. There she took a little of this, a little of that just to see what it was all about. She talked to her fellow students -- a bonus about attending a CC is that the student body is diverse in ways aside from race and ethnicity -- it is diverse in age and background. A student getting to know a classmate that is going back after raising her kids, or finally going to college is likely to take that conversation more to heart than a parent trying to explain the "real world" to them. Back to my student's story, after a year, she realized she wanted to be a nurse. So she got her LPN at the Community College (most of those "little here/little there" courses were used to fill elective credit requirements and weren't wasted). Now, she is going for the RN and is a serious student. I have students that are going straight for the RN and by their first semester of junior year, they have the LPN and can work a good paying job if needed to help fund the remainder of their education. It seems like your new daughter-in-law is going down this path, and whether or not she goes on to be an RN, her LPN will be a good-paying (and secure) profession.

Colleges have always been businesses, although I do have agreement in how State colleges have been hijacked and tuitions have exploded in traditionally low-cost states (TX used to be much cheaper, it's still quite cheap compared to elsewhere). However, if you could spend one day in my classroom and see how the "scholarship" kids behave, you might change your tune about making it too easy for kids to go to college on your tax dime. In my parents' area and my sister's area, the school tax portion of the property tax bill is itemized (as in separate tax bill) so it is painfully obvious the huge sums they are already paying to support public K-12 education. In my area it is not, so one has to actually look at the budget to surmise just how much of our property taxes go to public education. And I don't think most renters have a clue how much of their rent goes to school taxes -- I know I certainly didn't. I do know that rents have gone up quite a bit in this area over the past few years. I also know, as a former landlord, that this is not because slum lords are profiting mightily, but because property taxes have consistently been going up (especially with re-assessment), although remain low compared to other areas of CT. I guess my point is that we all tend to feel there is nothing we can do about how much we fund K-12. But we are getting crapola, largely, for our investment! So now the colleges have to teach the kids that which they didn't learn in K-12 in the form of remedial programs (the only remedial college programs there should be are for those going back to school after a long hiatus, any kid just coming out of HS, should not be "coming out of HS" if they require remedial classes at the next level!). If it is free for these kids to go on to the next level, they will do it -- why grow up and be responsible for oneself when you don't have to? And the taxpayer pays, and pays, and gets nothing in return. All a free college education with no strings attached does is further dissociate the education and its value from the real world. If I had a dollar for every time one of the older students in my classes this semester has said "wait until they are paying tuition" about the younger students that are either disruptive or do not attend class, I would be able to treat you and Cindi to dinner at Ruby's.

I think the 65% solution is a good one to give our K-12 system a swift kick in the butt. That means 65% of every education dollar is spent in the classroom -- equipment, supplies, teachers -- rather than increasing funding, the funding will be re-directed from the burgeoning/wasteful administration sector to the actual learning sector. One wouldn't think 65% is high enough ... but its a goal FAR too many schools would have difficulty attaining! Sad huh?

Evie

that the teachers themselves aren't accountable...you have laid the blame in every area but that one. Your answer appears to be paying the teachers better whether they are accountable or not for what the students are learning from them.

I say, if the teachers want or expect better pay, do without the tenure that guarantees them their jobs and make them earn it just like the kids have to earn their grades. If the students are required to pass certain levels in education before being able to be passed on to the next grade, the teachers themselves should be required to prove they are capable of teaching the kids what they need to know to do just that. If the teachers can't pass their own testings, get rid of them and get qualified teachers who can. Make them accountable by taking away their safety net of tenure.

Another way to get the kids qualified for a career college degree is to get adequate counselors who know how to research funding in the elementary/middle schools who can let the students know what funding will be available to them for the career they want so that the students and parents don't feel hopeless and give up early in the game thinking they have nothing to look forward to, and you will have far fewer 'defeated from the start' kids who get to see a light at the end of the tunnel for a change and will then make the effort that they otherwise wouldn't make because they can't see a point to it.

The only way an employer is going to invest in an employee's education AFTER the employee is already on the payroll is to get a guarantee that the employee is going to stay with them and not take that education to another company. The answer is to have employers get into contact with the counselors at the schools (or vice versa) and see what the students there have to offer toward their company, and lay out a college plan for the ones that the employer sees as good investments for both of their futures.

If you get the plan going ahead of time, the employer sees that they will gain a good employee and the student sees that they have an elevated education and a career waiting for them.....and they will work at getting both.

The schools have got to get with a decent placement program, the employers have to get with a decent employment program for their future, and the student has to be getting that knowledge early.......it all fits together.

TONI

is looking to add to their firm by including one?

Evidently this thread is another topic where you and I will never see eye to eye on......You may 'teach' the kids on a college level, Evie, but until you have kids of your own and actually see first hand what happens in the middle/high school levels, you won't get it.

TONI

... to address and retract your total distortion of my comments on this matter (teacher pay?) is duly noted.

No Toni, I don't have kids of my own. But since you are the one laying sole blame on the education establishment, I think my experiences in that realm trump yours. I remember "guidance counseling" in HS. I have attended no fewer than ten colleges and universities 2yr, 4yr, grad, public and private. I have taught at several colleges - 2 yr and 4 yr, public and private. I have gone into the high schools and mentored teenage girls to show them what they can make out of their lives. I don't live in a vacuum, I talk to my friends about their teenage kids and what they are going through. If they ask me about colleges I share my experiences. So given my experiences I think that I'm fully qualified to discuss this issue despite the fact that I haven't raised kids myself.

Go back and check. I do NOT blame parents solely. I do NOT excuse the education establishment.

You seem sore that Derek went into the military is all I can gather from the tone of these posts. It sounds like he is doing very well and you have much to be proud of, so what's the beef? And your middle daughter seems to have done well for herself despite schooling setbacks and no college education, so again, what's the beef? Our education system has always left some behind or out of the loop, and yet some of those have made good despite that. Just looking at my high school alumni website, many that do not list higher education own their own businesses and appear to be doing quite well, many with college degrees don't list an occupation or are stay at home moms. Some that you would never guess -- like my "greaser" goof-off buddy -- are high ranking managers for large companies (go figure!), some are doing what you would expect or thought they would do based on their aspirations in HS -- the autoshop kid that works for a custom bike shop -- just as many, if not more, have taken a whole new direction in life -- like my greaser buddy. This notion that "it's over" if you don't know what to do with your life before graduating is defeatist and that seems to be the attitude you are taking. Your own daughter seems to have found her own way -- ever wonder if that spirit of hers came from her schooling experiences, however not positive or unfair they seemed? Life's not fair. Maybe she learned that earlier than most and made lemonade!

Evie

BECAUSE they figured out ways to survive that didn't include help from a school that SHOULD have given them options and help and direction and information vital to them.

Being survivors and not being defeatists was taught by me because I appeared to be the only one who saw their potential and refused to let them quit on themselves. However, the schools have a responsibility to these kids.....that's why they are in the educational field to begin with......and most let the kids down horribly because the educators have taken on a 'cushy' job that has no way to police themselves and teachers/counselors skate by with showing favoritism and getting tenure that guarantees they can't be fired, even for non-performance.

I was also one of those students who did well, was never informed of my options for college, and became a secretary/waitress/barmaid/factory worker, whatever I could get for a job because I had kids to raise and feed. College wasn't an option for me after I started having kids because I would have spent more time away from them working full time and going to college even part time at a Community College....and didn't know about grants.....because I was never informed that there even WAS such a thing.

Most of my friends who DID go to college had parents who had better educations than my waitress mother did and who had information about such things.

I agree with you that the funding is there......however, if the schools don't bother to volunteer that information, how do the kids find out about it, Evie?

Most people don't feel that the world owes then a living or a college education, but you spout off about that a lot. People deserve to be informed of their options, Evie......especially if that information is being held by people being paid to give it out to ALL and not just a choice few. When people don't know that they HAVE options, Evie, they make crappy decisions. Information is everything in order to make good choices for yourself.

TONI

The schools could do a much better job of informing kids and parents of the various options out there. I do recall college fairs where the colleges sent reps to meet with those that might be interested. Perhaps these need to be more structured and involve the parents as well. But just because the school doesn't do it, doesn't mean one can forever blame them. When I ride the subways in NYC there are ads from various colleges with toll free numbers to call for info and always but always FINANCIAL AID AVAILABLE!!! screaming. At what point should the kid or then adult be the one to take the iniative to make the phone call?

The Community College finally giving the info is a start -- after all, your tax dollars subsidize that, and it is for the *community*.

You have yet to acknowledge that I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU REGARDING EDUCATORS AND COUNSELORS, ACCOUNTABILITY AND TENURE!!!!!!!!!!

You didn't quit on your kids. Might I point out that it is more the norm than the exception that it is the parent that usually takes on this roll. Occasionally a teacher may see a quality in a student and help them out -- lots of great people have a story about a teacher that inspired them. It's obviously easy for counselors to cherry pick the exceptional kids and cheer them on. I have friends that teach at various levels, and current trends have led to a clamping down on how much interest a teacher can even show a kid lest there be rumors, accusations of discrimination against other kids, etc. One that teaches 2nd grade cannot even put a hand on a crying child's shoulder if they scrape their leg ... we wouldn't want lawsuits for inappropriate touching now would we? Given the recent publicity over teachers getting involved with HS students, I can only see it getting worse.

Evie

You are aware that Gates is a college drop out aren't you?

If I'm not mistaken, Gates is in good company with other computer biggies -- Jobs and Dell, and the other Apple co-founder who's name escapes me.

From what I understand from his bio, he wasn't going to achieve what he wanted to by staying in college any longer than he did so he took a risk, knowing he could go back if it didn't pan out. That doesn't mean he doesn't understand the importance of having the opportunity and abilities to go in the first place, Evie.

TONI

Gates discovered that college was not the means to his goals in life. His complaints about high schools not preparing our kids for college, WORK, and citizenship are well spoken. His focus on college-as-only-route-to-success in the 21st century is wrong, IMO, and ironic for one that realized it wasn't the path for him.

Evie

is that college AS AN OPTION should be available to all of the students....not that it should be THE ONLY CHOICE. Unfortunately there are too many students who never get the information in the first place.

TONI

If not, how is a guidance counselor going to single him out to encourage him TO go to college? I'm thinking that if you and Derek went TO the counselor and said "I want my son to go to college, how can this happen", I'm betting the junkyard dog in you is not turning around and walking back out the door without some answers.

I always knew I wanted to go to college and my academics (including AP courses) were not stellar but certainly good enough for almost-Ivy colleges. I had a grand total of about an hour and a half with a guidance counselor. I don't know if the rich kids got more attention. The Ivy-bound certainly did. Those less college prone (and I hung around with all types in high school) had their meetings too, but the guidance counselors didn't push college on those that clearly weren't interested. Unless you want an army of counselors meeting with every kid often enough to really get to know them individually (how many hours would this be without eating into the kid's academic instruction time or requiring -- gasp! -- after school hours meetings?), it seems natural that they are going to focus their efforts on those that show an interest in going to college. If a kid's "numbers" don't show that, well then I don't think it is unreasonable for the kid or his parents to take the lead by pressing the guidance counselor for assistance. I knew a few kids that met rather more frequently with the counselor because their grades didn't meet their ambitions or their parents' incomes weren't going to pay their tuitions at some schools. My best friend in high school and I had almost identical "resumes" -- my SAT's were a bit better, her GPA was a bit better. She went to a SUNY school which was not her first choice. Her parents said that they would pay or take loans out for the SUNY tuition. If she wanted to go to a private college she would have to pay the difference. In the end she chose SUNY, I don't see anything wrong with that (think more highly of it now as she was smarter than some that racked up student loans) and she's done well. All of my neighbors' kids so far have gone to UConn or will be going to UConn with the exception of one that went to CC for two years first then transfered.

The opportunity is clearly there Toni, for EVERYBODY. A good chunk of my Community College students are fresh-out-of-high-school or a few-years-out kids that realize they need to do something with their lives but didn't do well enough in HS to get into a better school. The tuition is affordable, even out of pocket, but financial aid is abundant. The CC's often have arrangements with both state and private 4-year universities, that with successful completion they are automatically accepted for transfer into their programs. I've had many, many students that either could not afford four years of university tuition rates, or didn't do well academically in high school that get their acts together at a CC and have even gone on to grad school. There are scholarships available for CC graduates as well. Someone that struggled academically in HS is probably far better off going the CC route -- it gives them a time to transition into a more academically oriented environment.

Gates' point is that HS is not preparing kids academically for college, work and citizenship. He wasn't discussing opportunity in terms of being able to pay for it if they are academic superstars. He's lamenting the dirth of academic superstars. Too many don't have the basic skills to handle college level classes -- they've just been passed through. All the counseling in the world isn't going to fix THIS basic problem.

Evie

for 15 minutes 2 days before graduation

I never saw one. We didnt have one in our little bitty school. I guess those in larger schools naturally assume its the same way everywhere.

are not my preferences in life. It's a counter productive mentality.

"None can undo the past, the present requires a lot of work, the future awaits what you have reaped"


CL

Where did you get that?

You mentioned Gates as a student. I pointed out that he wasn't exactly the model student ... he dropped out.

Negativity? Seems he has done quite well for himself through his choices. However, it is IRONIC that a college drop-out appears to be advocating college-as-only-path-to-success. As I told Toni in another post, a recent visit to my HS alumni website showed me just how varied the paths were that were taken. And just how divergent from the goals we had at 16 are the paths actually taken.

weren't model students either since they took the education they received and ignored it enough to go into other fields.

TONI

I was far from a model student!

Sheesh. I know a LOT of people that get educations in one field and then work in another field entirely. Heck, I married one. Where's this condescencion coming from?

Nobody "takes an education" BTW, they have to work for it. If they later decide to do something else, so be it. Or are you really for the Soviet system where we are identified at age 10 to be a candidate for XYZ profession, educated by the state for that profession, and forced to work that profession until retirement?

Where did you get that? ~ Evie

Envy is the cancer of the brain.
It thrives on nothing but pain.
When recognition is given to those deserving,
The cynical persons look for the coffin.


CL