Bill Gates: America's high schools are failing our students

People that can't speak English in the same class as advanced learners, mean little gangsters that carry weapons to school, no disipline, no tome to back up and re-raise your brats.

entirety is an analysis I can with totally agree.

And to emphasis your
"the military is about the only serious game in town anymore" ----> it seems to be heading in that directions anyways.


cl

...makes so MUCH SENSE in which you should have done at first place.


CL

(NT) Always clever, witty, and charming. ~ Kiddpeat

For a Monday, I am glad to be off,
Only to witness a statement that might make others cough.
It is often true that it takes courage to express something nice
Especially, when beliefs and values are often the object to test and slice.

I am indebted to those words you used that flattered me.
It is most kind, positively encouraging, and uplifting, oui.
If only others were able to attempt the same steps you undertook
It would leave many so much room to comfortably breathe than be nuked.


CL

... IS nonsense. It might not be dished up in full on a silver platter, but anyone that wants to go to college in this country can.

the students and the parents get that information from the schools/guidance counselors. If the counselors at the schools only bother to inform the top kids, which happens every day, the others are considered to be throw aways and not worth the effort to inform them. There are many kids in the schools who have the potential and are totally ignored by the schools themselves, Evie.

Derek was one of them......and we only found out about the funding that was available to him via Pell Grants and private donations when he applied at the college itself. He could have applied at better colleges ahead of time if we had been given information by the school itself, but it was the Community College who dished out the information to us. There was one short one-hour 'seminar' at the high school with pamphlets sitting on a table for us to pick up and ask questions about, with ONE counselor there to 'help' answer questions, and Derek says there were NO meetings set up between counselors and students before or after nor were there any assemblies given to students to inform them of anything that we could have been doing ahead of time.

Derek just figured that his grades (although on the honor roll for four years in a row) weren't 'good enough' to qualify for any scholarships and didn't know enough to go to the counselor and ask himself. Only the students whose parents already had big bucks, we found out later, were 'invited' to the counselors' offices for private meetings to discuss the options they had. Popularity between students, parents, and counselors is the norm everywhere, Evie...the rest of the kids don't count. Derek wasn't the kind of kid who joined a million clubs and got 'noticed', but knew what direction he wanted to go.

When he graduated, he headed for a part time job and applied at the Community College on his own....and only then found out he had great grades and could have qualified at a number of colleges. Perhaps he wouldn't have been accepted at most of them, but he could have applied, and never was told he could have.

Derek is just one example.......most of his classmates were treated the same way, and it's all totally unfair and unnecessary because things in the schools are based on the popularity of the students instead of their accomplishments. Favoritism plays a huge roll, whether people believe it or not. Your attitude of 'the funding is there' and 'all kids can go to college' is just plain unrealistic when the schools themselves fail the students and don't inform them of their options based on performance rather than personality.

TONI

You began by stating that there were vast pools of college ready kids that just couldn't afford to go to college because there was no funding available.

Now you are arguing about there not being sufficient info available about the funding that IS available.

So Derek's guidance counselors were crap. My guidance counselor was not much better. The list of colleges she thought I should try for didn't even include my top three that I applied to. But when I went to her with my own list, she did have a good idea of which colleges I should apply to and which I wasn't likely to get accepted to so might as well save that money. Application fees are not chump change, it would be equally irresponsible to encourage a kid to apply to several colleges they are unlikely to get accepted to. Setting them up for rejection. I was pretty sure I didn't have quite the grades or SAT's to get into MIT. My babysitter employer paid my application fee because he just wanted to see if I could get in. I got wait listed There was no meeting with the parents to discuss financial aid options, etc. ALL of these were done THROUGH the college. M&D, like every one else's parents, filled out the "were there corn niblets in your crap this morning" application to see about financial aid. I got a grand scholarship from NYS for my SAT scores that paid for my books and $125 from my college -- which they promptly recinded after the first semester where I earned a 4.0. The rest was paid by my folks and supplemented by loans that I paid back. My loans were less than some, more than others -- particularly several of my college friends that were given grants and never had to pay back a penny because their folks didn't make much, even though they could have reasonably paid back some given their salaries upon graduation.

You are in VA right? Well why DID you dismiss the Community College??? Tuition is ~$70/credit hour. The AAS degrees (which transfer to Bachelors Degree programs in most fields) all require just under 70 credits for a grand total of just under $5000. That's $2500 a year if going full time. Quite frankly, it is not every child that can depend on their parents to foot the bill for their education. Once they are adults, there are options available to all. Time to stop looking to place blame elsewhere and work with what you have!!

Consider this Toni. There is NO way a counselor, even if they see your kid several times a year every year, can know them as well as you do. They can suggest career paths, but those are going to be boiler plate based on the information they have in front of them (grades, test scores and extracurricular activities). I think your expectations for individual treatment and advocacy are a bit high.

Evie

You are the one who corrected my original view that funding just isn't there for kids who want to go by stating the funds ARE there.....so my argument is still that without that knowledge, the kids won't go as readily as they might if they knew also that the funding was there......and the ONLY source for that information is the schools themselves.

That is not an unrealistic approach to expect that information to be forth-coming, Evie. Expectations too high? I'm paying for that information, so I should expect it to be there for ALL students and not a choice few.

TONI

...late for an explanation, however, it may be rather late to persuade the action that damaged it.

So, by all means..."Speak when you are angry--and you will make the best speech you'll ever regret". ~~~ Laurence J. Peter, a native of Vancouver, British Columbia, US educator & writer (1919 - 198

...and next time you decide to use the "DNR" with anybody, please stick with it. It's befitting to practice what you preach...There?s credibility in it. I do not like using *DNR* for simple reason as not wanting to be caught between my pride and the need to speak when required.

And anybody who wants to be successful in life is an ?ACHIEVER by any *means*. He has the ability to find the resources and has the capacity to apply the intellectual property gained from it.?


CL

As to your last statement in this post, did I ever say otherwise? I'm not the one in this thread arguing that without college a person cannot achieve. I'm arguing the opposite, actually, while still recognizing the worth of a college education where it is warranted.

I'll take your explanation into consideration after all, at times I make the similar *intentional* error. This is where my grandma usually steps in and tells me and my siblings ~ "Enough all of you". And we all responded, "Yes grandma". The moment she turns around my little sister sticks her tongue out at me and I pull my pants down to show her my butt. (lol)Grandma saw us, she then again said, "I said, enough you two. You! go clean the tub, and you go tidy up your room". That act of designation sure stops the moment of *taunting and baiting*. In the end of the day, towards the evening, I tell my little sister if she could give me a back massage for $1.00. She then bargains, "$3.00, coz you pissed me off today".

I said, "Fine!"


CL
Little sister was enjoying pounding and torturing my back. The harder it gets --- the better. I like rough massages

There are ways to get kids into colleges....and some (but far too few) are already in place.

Have private or government funds available for kids aiming for a specific career where they agree to work in that field for a specific company that provided the college funds for a certain number of years in order to pay back the college funding...or the government agency that provided the funding. This gives the kid an education in that field, the company/government agency a way to get a good employee that they've supported, and the kid gets the experience needed to go on to another company or agency or even stay where they are when the 'contract' runs out.

That's a 'win-win' situation for all concerned...

TONI

Look at how many times kid change their minds about anything, much less career aspirations

... the retroactive system I posted below is the only one that makes sense. It could only work for marketable skills which is the only reason to get a college education in the 21st century. There's just not a lot of need for graduates of NameYourMinority's Studies programs, or General Studies, or programs that amount to nothing more than qualifying you to become a professional activist!

Evie

determined about what types of careers they want for themselves today compared to the 'professional' students who made a career out of just going to college in order to avoid a draft or having to work for years and years.

If the contract stipulated that they had to pay back the funds if they backed out and didn't fulfill the contract agreement, it would be a win-win for both.

TONI

... and how to structure it then? The assistance HAS to be in the form of a loan so that the student knows they are paying that back. The incentive is that the future employer agrees to pay it back for them if they sign on and complete the obligated term.

However, those fields that this would make sense for, largely have competitive programs to begin with. IOW, getting that good paying job is incentive enough and justifies the outlay of tuition. Take nursing. There are nursing shortages pretty much throughout this country. Students go into that field for the employment prospects and benefits of a career in that field. If one does well (even mediocre and passes through), there is an almost guaranteed secure and well-paying career waiting. I'm all for targeting loan programs towards these career-path majors. But cannot forsee there being tuition reimbursement/loan repayment plans in such a competitive field except perhaps by public hospitals in areas where there is a critical nursing shortage.

More and more kids are determined about what types of careers they want? If they are, then they work hard in high school and they WILL get the financial assistance so that they can attend college if that is what is needed to enter that field.

Having taught at both community colleges and private four-year universities for quite some time now, all I can say is that there seem to be fewer and fewer students that select their majors so as to achieve some pre-conceived career goal. Heck, even many of my nursing majors seem to be floundering as to whether this is what they really want to do -- it's harder than most expected is the gist of what I'm hearing. You mean I have to do more than just attend class and sleep in the back? You think I'm kidding?? Still, far more are floundering around having a grand old time with no clue what they want to do when they graduate. What does one do with a degree in General Studies? What job does that qualify one for?

Evie

>>>More and more kids are determined about what types of careers they want? If they are, then they work hard in high school and they WILL get the financial assistance so that they can attend college if that is what is needed to enter that field. >>>>

That is utter bull......no matter how hard a student may study and get grades that are sufficient for college funding (scholarships), the ones who managed to get even a slightly higher grade are the ones who will be accepted. That's reality.....and it doesn't make any sense to now have a student who ALMOST made it but got beat out by somebody else at a different school who got that scholarship instead. Now that 'almost' kid either has to try again at a different college and apply for different scholarships/funding or feel that trying wasn't going to ever be good enough. What if that kid got beat out of going to the college of his/her choice on a scholarship that now went to a sports star who had been scouted and that scout had connections that the first kid didn't have? This type of thing happens all the time, Evie, and you, being in the 'business, know it does all the time.

>>>all I can say is that there seem to be fewer and fewer students that select their majors so as to achieve some pre-conceived career goal.>>>>

This is where the counselors at middle/high schools can make or break that attitude and get the kids on the right track. What are counselors for if not that instead of helping principals with disciplanary crap at that level. I have yet, with four kids, to talk with a school counselor who went out of their way to actually inform kids about what they can look forward to, what their options are, and help steer them into that path with good information, resources, and guiding. Most of what my kids knew came from me and my own research because of my personal experiences with school guidance counselors and teachers.

The earlier the kids get good information, the more direction they have towards their own personal goals and see the path to getting them....and that information has got to come from the educational field since they have the kids under their 'guidance' for 13 years. If that doesn't happen, then it's the educational field that has let them down badly....nobody else.

TONI

... but you are simply off base as regards college funding. I don't have the time for specifics now, will get back with more on that later. Athletic, financial need, and pure academic scholarships are different funding pools.

I'm all for the counselors. Given that schools all seem to have guidance counselors, perhaps it is time to revamp that profession to staff it appropriately with those qualified to guide their students. I had excellent counseling in school, but also guidance from my parents. Good for you in doing what you did for your children. Why is it you don't think other parents at least have some responsibility of their own to do the same? I'm with you 100% about having a sit-down various points along the way between student, parents and counselor to guide a path. But if that kid falls short of the academics for a full scholarship (and it will happen), they also have to be encouraged to still keep pushing themselves to get there on another path or perhaps re-think their ambitions -- going to the second or third choice college, going into medical technology rather than medical school, etc. If a kid isn't motivated to do this, then no amount of money or guidance is going to help.

Evie

and probably still are. Believe me, that covers quite a few years. The best they can do is tell the kid how to navigate the educational maze. They can only do that for the highly motivated who are seeking the information. If the kid doesn't commit to a goal, he/she will be lost in space.

I think that a degree in General Studies can be important. The Company I currently work for prefers that you have a degree, it doesn't matter what the degree is in, as long as you have one. I myself am not working in the fields I studied in college, but all of the classes I took (with a few exceptions) are very useful in my everyday life outside of my profession. For example, there would be no need for me to have read "Origins of The Species" for the job I do, but it is never the less important for to have read it to understand other areas of activity.

... your age or when you went to college? I went to a reunion of sorts recently and with a chuckle we all recalled how our teachers used to tell us "XYZ teaches you how to think". It was so true. Of all my college classmates, I think I'm the only one actually using things I learned (as a teacher). Most are not engineers (although that's what most majored in). Several are Moms, and surprisingly half of the Moms are stay-at-home PTA types that still do a little consulting on the side out of the home. Considering our attitudes in college (in the height of me me me feminism persuing the almighty *CAREER*) I find this development the most surprising. We got to talking about that notion of learning "how to think" and the Moms chimed in about how their kids aren't learning that way in school any more, and I chimed in how that isn't done much in college anymore either. Sometimes I begin to think it's just me, then I talk with other profs and discover its a DEFINITE change in the quality of students entering college these days.

I think having a college degree from the 60's through early 90's is something in and of itself. The quality of the students earning degrees starting sometime in the 90's on up has steadily declined. The social promotion at the lower levels seems to have made its way to the colleges. Students are tuition dollars. Everything is done to keep them off academic probation -- I have been pressured (not by coaches but by a Dean!) to pass failing students. Tutors are available for those that are academic risks and academic services will hold their hands. Many of those students get "accomodations" -- meaning they get more time to take exams, etc. In real life, there are no such accomodations. Nowhere on the diploma does it say that Johnny got a 3.5 with accomodations and lots of extra credit.

This is OBVIOUSLY not everyone, but a substantial enough portion of todays college students either don't belong there in the first place, or have learned the game of "doing exactly what's expected" and expecting an "A" in return. IOW, attendance is required, and yet I hear "but I came to every class" .... things like that. "I want to go to Medical School but only got an 80% can I do extra credit to get the best grade possible?".

My point being that a college degree doesn't mean as much as it used to. However neither does the high school diploma so a college degree at least offers some guarantee that someone invested time and finished the commitment.

Still, from the employee POV, a 4-year degree in General Studies is likely not going to be a good investment. This can cost $100K at one school where I teach. Most of these graduates get jobs making salaries similar to those they would be making had they gotten a job for the 4 years they spent in the classroom. A lot of these kids get a job selling cars for a year or so in order to get "sales experience" and then go into the sales/marketing field. A lot of them end up at Bed Bath and Beyond and eventually get into retail management, but again, could have made it there through the hourly ranks w/o the student loans looming on graduation.

In "my day" it seemed that a good chunk of HS grads were ready to go directly to college. If my kid or any of my friends' kids were having trouble "finding their direction" I would strongly encourage them to take a year or two before going to college full time. It is a HUGE investment -- one that can be well worth it if you know what you want to do and are serious about doing it. It used to be I only got age diversity in the Community College -- an interesting mix of kids fresh out of HS (mostly that couldn't get into other colleges) and older women (and some career change men) going back for a degree after raising kids. Most of the "Moms" in the class had kids the ages of their classmates -- interesting dynamic. But nowadays the age diversity is in the 4-year classroom as well. When I was an undergrad, everyone was late teens/early 20's except for the occasional grad student. I have several students that are late-30's/early 40's, and a good chunk that is mid 20's. Those in the mid-20's usually worked or had tried college before and dropped out, etc. I guess this may be part of the contribution to the new generation that doesn't "grow up" until their 30's, but, frankly, it is much smarter to wait until your education investment is going to pay off rather than waste it by 21 y.o.a. to get a diploma with dubious future value.

I think a 2-year degree in General Studies has (limited) usefulness. By the time you are spending 4-years to get a degree, it should be at least somewhat specialized.

Sadly enough, those that go into the education field tend to be from the students that can't think of anything else to do with their degrees so they become Education majors. Walter Williams has innumerable columns on this subject

Evie

Evie, I?m over 40. My wife and I went to the same college and neither of us works in the field that we studied. In fact we sometimes count the number of people we went to school with that don?t work in the area that they studied. Unless you are planning on being a professional burger flipper or a ditch digger, I think college should be able to teach a person a lot about how to think and reason and it exposes you to much more than you normally would. (I would have NEVER read Three Guineas if I hadn?t been made to in college) There are several problems with college educations today. One being that 85-95 percent of the professors are flaming Liberal and don?t allow real freedom of expression in their classes or on campus. I have many personal stories with regards to that issue. Another is that many young?ns feel that they are owed a college education. Wrongo, gotta earn it. These same children spend most of their 4-6 years in school partying. Not saying I was the greatest student, but I was one of the few who truly enjoyed the education process. My dream job (other than professional athlete) would to do research for a living. Still one of my favorite things to do. As for the money it costs to go to college, $100,000 is way too much. The school I went to at the time was about $10,000 a year and now is close to $35,000. I can say without a doubt, it?s not worth it. Unless you just want that ?prestigious? school name associated with you, you can get more value at a cheaper school and it?s up to the individual student to make the most of it. I didn?t go to school for job training, I went because I like to learn. Walter Williams, brilliant man, could listen to him everyday, all day.