Bible question. Where to research?

Now that you mention it, it stands to reason that a number of people could have said "No freakin' way" to many of the tasks god set for people. That, or thought themselves insane after hearing the request.

Dan

could God work out a plan formulated before the beginning of time while allowing full reign to free choice? Part of the answer lies in understanding what free choice (or will) is, and what it is not. It is not very random in nature. Confronted with a range of possible outcomes, the choice a specific individual makes is predictable if sufficient knowledge of the individual is available.

between lacking free will and being created in such a way as to be 99.999999+% predictable, but that difference could only be considered semantic.

Dan

choice between a chocolate sunday, and turnips, which would you predict that I would choose? People always choose to do what they want. The greatest want is what determines the choice. Choices are not arbitrary.

But I didn't create you. Had I created you I sure as heck would have done so, according to your statement, with an eye towards making sure you came out most heavily predisposed to do what I knew I was going to tell you to do. With no lip, either. That seems to be what you're saying god does.

Dan

the truth when you say 'I have no idea'. It isn't that hard Dan, but then you don't want to admit that do you.

I guess it's a good thing that you are not God. I can see that you've got a thing about power. No, that's not at all what I'm saying about God.

lactose intollerent. Wouldn't be surprising at all, really. You may be a vegan. You may be on a low cholestorol diet. You may be allergic to chocolate. You may be any or all of those things and you offered your choices deliberately to trick the unwary. Perhaps you work in mysterious ways. Most people do.

How does my interpretation differ from your statement?

Dan

obvious. You are clearly not a very trusting person.

getting drunk in a bar in Ireland, (radio comedy skit from the early 60's) they get involved in a brawl and spike milligan says "i'll fight anyone who calls me a pacifist"



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Alas, they're both gone now. World was a simpler place then, except on the Beeb.
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

Im a little short on time. BTW, I only know of one 'prostitute' which is supposedly in the bible, but is not. People have assumed she was, but that doesnt make it so.

She saved the messengers/spies, and I believe was also in Jesus' family tree.

--Cindi
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email the mods

Mary Magdalene is called a prostitute, but the bible doesn't say. (But where would the entertainment industry be without Mary the Hooker? )

I posted about Rahab because her story made a relevant point, that the Jerichoites and others in the area had sufficient warning about Jehovah's intentions for their land and sufficient opportunity to alter their "fate." Echo disagrees with my conclusions, and on some interesting but irrelevant grounds.
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

Isn't it nice and easy to sit here and extol the virtues of genocide. Your God was really good when it came to killing the elderly, the handicapped,the unborn and precious infants. Worse, you applaud this murderousness.
If god ordered you to kill a baby or an elderly woman would you be "righteous" enough to do it DR?
Here's some "relevant" facts. See if you are man enough to answer the questions at the bottom.

Killed by God

-- Drowned everyone in the whole world except for Noah and his family (Genesis 7)
1 -- Saltified Lot's wife (Genesis 19:26)
? -- Burned all of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah (except for "good" Lot who offered his virgin daughters to a mob of men and then slept with both of them himself later)
1 -- Slew Er, Judah's firstborn son (Genesis 38:7)
1 -- Killed Er's brother, Onan because he spilled semen on the ground so as not to conceive offspring for his brother's wife whom he was forced to marry (Genesis 38:9-10)
? -- The firstborn in all of Egypt (Exodus 12:29)
? -- Drowned the pharoah and all of his gang in the Red Sea (Exodus 14:26-2
2 -- Nadab and Abihu for making a fire
? -- Burned some Jews for complaining
? -- Sent a plague against Jews for being greedy
11 -- Sent a plague on Jews who gave the chosen land a bad report
? -- Korah and other Jews who didn't like Moses
? -- The Lord causes the earth to open and swallow up the men and
their families because they had been rebellious (Numbers 16:27-33)
250 -- A fire from the Lord consumes 250 men (Numbers 16:35)
14,700 -- Sent a plague on Jews apparently for the hell of it (Numbers 16:49)
"many" -- Sent serpents on Jews (Numbers 21:6)
24,000 -- Plague killed Jews who followed Baal (Numbers 25:9)
? -- Philistines
50,070 -- Jews who looked in the ark of the covenant (1 Samuel 6:19)
1 -- Nabal for scorning David
1 -- Uzzah for touching the ark when trying to keep it from falling
1 -- David and Bathsheba's child
70,000 -- Sent a pestilence because David sinned (2 Samuel 24:15)
51 -- Fire from heaven consumes the prophets of Baal (2 Kings 1:10-12)
102 -- Sent fire down on Ahaziah's men
42 -- Sent bears to kill children who mocked Elisha (2 Kings 2:23-24)
? -- Sent lions to kill invaders
185,000 -- Assyrians (2 Kings 19:35)
80,000 -- Lots of bad Israelites___________________________________________
399,933 + ? -- Total killed by God

Killed on God's orders by his followers:

? -- Jacob's sons killed every man in Shechem
3,000 -- Jews worshipping the golden calf (Exodus 2:27-29)
1 -- Man gathering wood on the Sabbath Day (Numbers 15:32-36)
? -- Canaan (Numbers 21:3)Israelites
? -- The Lord commands Moses to kill the people and expose them in broad daylight so that the Lord's anger may be turned away from Israel (Numbers 25:4)
? -- Took the city of Heshbon from the Amorites
? -- All of the people of Bashan
? -- All Midianites except for the virgin girls (Numbers 31:17-1
? -- The Israelites destroy the men, women, and children of Sihon leaving no survivors after the Lord gave them over to them (Deuteronomy 2:33-34)
? -- The Israelites destroy the men, women, and children of Og after the Lord gave them over to them (Deuteronomy 3:6)
? -- Everyone in Jericho but Rahab, a hooker who betrayed her city (Joshua 6:21-27)
? -- Achan and his family (who had nothing to do with it) for stealing (Joshua 7:19-26)
12,000 -- Joshua utterly smites the people of Ai with the God's approval (Joshua 8:22-25)
? -- Everyone in the cities of Ai, Amalek, Makkedah, Libnath, Lachish, Egnolites,Jarmuth, Geder, Hebronites, Debirites, Hormah, Arad, Addellam, Bethel, Tappuah, Hepher, Apheh, Lasheron, Madon, Tasnach, Megiddo, Kedesh, Jokneam, Dor, Goiim, Terzah, Gibeonites and all of the Amorites.
10,000 -- Canaanites of Bezek (Judges 1:4)
10,000 -- The Israelites kill the Moabites with the help of the Lord (Judges 3:29)
? -- The people of Jerusalem, Sheshai, Ahiman, and Talmai
? -- The people of Zephath, Gaza, Ashkelon, Ekron, and the king of Moab, Eglon.
? -- The army of Sisera and the men of Karkor
? -- Jephthah destroyed 20 cities
30 -- The Spirit of the Lord comes to Samson and causes him to slay thirty men
(Judges 14:19)
1000 -- Under the Spirit of the Lord, Samson slays 1000 men with the jawbone of an *** (Judges 15:15)

3000 -- Samson, with the help of the Lord, pulls down the pillars of the Philistine house and causes his own death and that of 3000 other men and women (Judges 16: 27-30)
50,100 -- The men of the tribe of Benjamin (Judges 20:35, 43-4
? -- The tribe of Jabesh-gilead
? -- The Ammonites, the Philistines and the Amelekites
331,269 -- David killed a whole bunch of people
3 -- Solomon killed a few people too
? -- All of Jeroboam's extended family
? -- All of Baasha's extended family
450 -- Prophets of Baal
793,000 -- All Jewish Baal-followers
127,000 -- Arameans slain by the Israelites with the help of the Lord (1 Kings 20:28-30)
1 -- Man who wouldn't strike a prophet
? -- Moabites
172 -- Jezebel, Ahab's sons, Joram, their priests, and their friends
142 -- Ahaziah's relatives
? -- The sacrifice of the firstborn of Israel so that the Lord might horrify them.
? -- All of Baal's followers
1 -- Athaliah for killing sons
1 -- Mattan the Baal priest
10,002 -- Edomites and two servents
? -- All of the pregnant women in Tirzah
20,000 -- Hezekiah killed a bunch of people
500,000 -- Israelites killed each other
50,000 -- Ethiopians
23,000 -- Seerites
510 -- Haman's army
75,300 -- More of the army
___________________________________________

2,017,956 + ? -- Total killed by God's followers under his orders!

So the grand total comes to:

399,933 Killed by God

+ 2,017,956 Killed by God?s followers on God's orders

= 2,417,889 + ? people killed by God and his followers under his orders PLUS an unknown amount which probably number into the millions, including the whole world at the time of Noah, and over 60 whole cities!

vs.

Killed by Satan

? -- Satan killed Job's children after God gave him permission to.


Q1) Who has killed more people overall, God or Satan?

Q2) Which is the bigger sinner, the average human
being who's never killed anyone, or the God of the Bible who's killed at least 2.5 million people?

Q3) Who has committed more crimes, YOU or the God of the Bible, who's killed millions of people according to the Bible? If your answer is you, then explain what crimes you?ve committed that?s worse than killing millions of people.

Q4) Who is the bigger sinner, YOU or the God of the Bible? If your answer is you, then explain what you've done that's worse than killing millions of people.

Just look at Hitler - 11 million in concentration camps alone. More have been killed in the name of various gods than God would dream of.

God was dealing with different people in the old and new testaments. There are a lot of things in the old testament I don't understand. I'm just thankful that I don't have to follow all the laws since I am forgiven under grace.

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

That's interesting. When you say you don't have to obey the laws since you are forgiven under grace, which laws are you talking about, the Ten Commandments (all three sets of them) the dietary laws? What is the point of the OT if all of god's laws are not binding as Jesus says they are in Mt.5:17-19,for exapmple?
Whether humans have by now killed more humans than god has is a matter of debate. For example, we don't know how many people existed on earth before the Flood or in many of the cities the OT god destroyed. If it is true he destroyed the cities their records have been lost.

Best,

The first is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind and the second is to love your neighbor as yourself. The third is a new one given by Jesus to love one another.

The laws I'm talking about are the ones that specify sacrifices and not mixing types of cloth and not eating pork, etc.

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

There is Mt. 5:18-19 is there not?
Not that I want you to be bound by these laws. Although some of the various Ten Commandments aren't bad.

Remember the ten commandments can summed up by the two great commandments. As to dietary laws, remember Peter's vision in Acts 10:9-23. God showed him various unclean animals and told Peter not to call anything impure that God had made pure. I know that God was also talking about Cornelius but God (and Jesus) rarely talked on only one level.

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

It was done away with when Jesus became our sacrifice.

your god sure whupped some *** indonesia and those records have survived...


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and if you read my post, I was talking about the records of cities and peoples allegedly destroyed by the OT god 3-4000 years ago not the records of the Tsunami disaster. Did you really think I thoght there were no records of the Tsunami disaster Jonah?

on purpose?

you said If it is true he destroyed the cities their records have been lost

my point was that such a catastrophic event (and btw, i believe it was you that mentioned the figure 600 million) would be recorded and no matter what the magnitude of the disaster, records would survive...

but never mind me, you carry on doin' the thing you do so well....


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but neither is this god you say is mine, the god who allegedly sent the Tsunami. Again where did you get the idea that this Tsunami god was my god. If you are not going to read my posts then I suggest you ask me directly reagarding information about me. That way you will not wind up saying things about me that are not true.

Born again christians do not need to satisfy the OT laws in order to be saved. However, once a person has truly been born again, they have a new feeling about sin. In times past, lust was something that was to be pursued and satisfied without guilt to a large degree. Once born again, guilt hits hard during the thought process of such things and causes repentance. Not that we are sinless at this point. The dietary and statutory laws where NEVER given to gentiles, so to put yourself under them is a matter of choice. They are not a condition for salvation.

Mathew 5:17-19 is pretty clear so is Luke 16:16:17. Note the severity of the punishment for those who disobey the OT law(s).

Is that 1) You are forced to invoke the likes of Hitler in order to justify the OT god.
2) We don't know how many people lived on Earth before the Flood. Let's suppose it was one-tenth of the present day Earth's population. That would make it 600 million dead at the hands of the OT god.

for the human population at ~4000 BCE is 80-100 Million. But such estimates are necessarily inaccurate.

Dan

The problem is we just don't know how many people were on the planet before the Flood. I still think my %10 of today's population model is fair though.