Hi,
I'm hoping that some who have gotten further than I in Bible study can answer or point me in the right direction.
I was recently told that when Jesus said on the cross "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34) that the word 'forgive' in the original text was not the typical form of forgive, but one that means to leave alone, or do not interfere, let them come.
This would change Jesus' plea (to me, anyway) from one of asking the Father to have mercy on those who killed him to asking the Father to hold back at that moment from inflicting His wrath on them, to allow them to carry out the crucifixion in order to let God's plan be fully realized.
--Cindi
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Bible question. Where to research?
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and all knowing? Even the Old Testament says that, so I don't know WHERE DR is coming from. Anyway, what if God had to create the way that He did to acheive His purposes. He did not make imperfect things, and placing sin in A & E would make them imperfect. It would also make Him the author of, and responsible for, sin. This is certainly not something He would choose to do.
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Adam and Eve
The Flood
Jesus
I guess somebody was exaggerationg a bit.
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but he knew they would eat the apple. God created them with enough curiosity, ambition, and disobedience, and not enough self control so that their action was, if not strictly preordained, than at the very least inevitable. God gave them free will knowing exactly how they would exercise it. It was how he made them. If he had wanted to make them so that they would not eat the apple he could have done that, too.
Dan
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and didnt intend the reader to see it that way.
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But it comes from 'reading between the lines' for a message that isn't there.
'If you eat ...' means choice, not predestination, as any Basic progammer knows: If/then/endif, if/while. Unless Jehovah is a practical joker, in which case why do you folks have such a fascination with such a ridiculous book? ["God is love." "No he isn't, he's cruel!"] 
Adam, 'made in God's image,' faced a choice- his wife, not the fruit- and made the wrong one. A perfect man down. Jesus, "the image of God," (2 Cor 4:4) always made the right choices. A perfect man stays perfect; sin cancelled for those who choose to take advantage.
BTW, it's also your opinion that the fruit was an apple.
Regards, Doug in New Mexico
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that god did not know what was going to happen? He made Adam. He knew exactly what was going to happen when a naked woman says "Eat this."
Dan
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the bible begs us to compare them under conditions more than fair to Adam and us, and act accordingly.
And the "naked woman" is irrelevant; you're applying man's thinking after 6000 years of development under imperfection. (Unless you forgot the )
Pop quiz: What was that "fruit?"
Regards, Doug in New Mexico
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doesn't mean that Adam or Dan are barred from making a different decision. It also means that both Adam and Dan are responsible for the choices they make.
The theologians say that Adam was in a provisional kind of status. Nothing compelled him to act either way. His nature was not yet fallen, and he could have decided not to disobey.
BTW, I personally think that Adam acted out of love for Eve. His soul mate had just disobeyed God, and I think he made to decision to join her rather than lose her. Also, He didn't really realize that either one of them were naked until after he gained a knowledge of good and evil. Until then, both Eve and he looked quite natural to him.
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If god knows what is going to happen then that's what's going to happen. If god knows that Adam is going to do one thing then Adam does another thing that means god was mistaken. And we both know that can't be.
If god 'knows', as you state, exactly what Adam is going to do, how can Adam not be considered barred from doing differently? God either knows exactly what is going to happen or he does not.
Dan
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Nothing different there, that's why they're called 'mysteries of faith' often enough.
What happens when an irrestible force meets an unmovable object?
What happens if you travel in time and kill your parents before you were born?
So the second is a question of defining terms in absolute terms that may not hold. The second is supposing an ability to do something we can't (at least not now).
But the question of free will existing while God still knows what is to happen is just one of those contradictions that all religions, faiths, even philosophies have. And insisting on applying "pure logic" to ridicule the beliefs is just to insult the believers, since pure logic can't even account for what any individual does every day, here and now.
JMO
Roger
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com
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is the choice of those who started the conversation, not mine. Since that choice was made the principles of logic must be followed until logic is explicitly abandoned.
In any case I would choose "reason" where you selected "logic".
Dan
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but actually it's as much a 'faith' they're wrong and a way to present logic/reason to prove it, IMO.
But that's ok too, everyone has to believe in something.....
And if I had a drink in the house, I believe I would have a rare drink. Since I don't, I'll probably just get some sleep.
JMO
Roger
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com
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I told you God is a multi-level player.
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there can be any number of choices at a certain juncture and choosing any of them would be exactly what god knew would happen. Is that it?
That does make things pretty tidy. You can claim at the same time that there is free will AND that god knows exactly what you will choose AND that god has a plan and it's always true regardless of what choices are made or what the outcomes are. Pretty slick. It also closes down any attempt at reasoned examination of the world. That's convenient, too.
Dan
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set up a straw man. I've explained that whole thing over, and over again. I'm not going to go thru it again. Look it up.
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have been, to date, a bit vague and circular. I'm really just trying to make sense of your statements.
Dan
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why you don't recognize it.
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You are, as always, free to refuse to answer my questions, but don't get mad at me when your answers come up short. That is not my fault.
Dan
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the last word. I can't believe that you won't respond again.
BTW, if you refuse to grasp things the third or fourth time they're said, don't complain that they are not repeated the fourth or fifth time you claim that you don't understand.
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A little nitpic, here. A guy could argue its a conditional future tense in which the action taken is not yet known, but is still predestination.
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Pedantic verb tenses not the issue here; obedience and appreciation are. 'Life and death' not a nitpick. John 17:3.
BTW the bible doesn't say; the tree, of course was unique and gone. Our pubs often show it as a sort of bumpy pear.
Regards, Doug in New Mexico
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No ordinary fruit...
Which as I implied eleswhere, is where Adam and Eve got their sex education. If Jesus had been there, committing no sin, were would the rest of us be?
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from that. Gen 1:28 belies that: 'go forth and multiply.'
Regards, Doug in New Mexico
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