Bible question. Where to research?

He didn't give us that option. He said He is God, and told everyone that they must come thru Him to get to God. If He was not God, he was either a lunatic or an incredibly evil liar.

to be holy and wise? I do, but I do not consider him God. There have been many wise and holy men who have walked this earth and not all of them were christian.
A couple hundred years ago there were lots of people who never heard about Jesus, who worked hard, raised a family, and did the right thing all their lives. Do you really believe God would exclude them from the promised land?

Pope John Paul had claimed to be God, he would either be condemned or laughed into oblivion.

He cannot be a holy and/or wise man, and not be God.

He didn't give us that option. He said He is God, and told everyone that they must come thru Him to get to God. If He was not God, he was either a lunatic or an incredibly evil liar.

For me, those words imply that only holy and wise men can be God. But you never said whether you belive the Pope would be considered holy and wise.

I said;

a. if someone says he is God, and is not

b. then he cannot be a holy and wise man

Was the pope a holy and wise man? I do not know. I do not know enough about him to render that judgement.

Jesus knew he would rise again, so for him death held no power over him, so how could that actually be suicide anyway? There's a difference between sacrifice to help others and just throwing your life away in a suicide. Typically the suicide takes his own life or gets someone to help him. He is the one that initiates the action. Someone who makes a sacrifice has considered the risk, maybe even sure the outcome will be death, but chooses ot make that sacrifice for a greater good. For Jesus that was saving the world, for a parent it might be saving their child, for a soldier or medic it might be pulling companions or civilians to safety. As for suicide, I remember a book written by a heart doctor, Michael Sabom I think, "Beyond Death's Door" or maybe the title was different. It's not biblical but gives his personal experiences in the emergency room where he's revived suicides and heard their stories of what they experienced in the "beyond". I personally know of no scripture that definitively states that people who kill themselves are condemned to Hades or Hell or cast into outer darkness. Most doctrines that promote that view are extrapolations on the theme that God gave us the gift of life and deliberately choosing death makes it a rejection of that gift. I leave it to God's mercy and don't fret myself over it.

If you believe that Jesus is God, then I would totally agree with you. I just can't buy into that concept completely. I do believe Jesus did initate his own death. That's my point. Maybe if my catholic teachings didn't preach to me that suicide was an unforgivable sin, I wouldn't have such a hard time accepting all of this. But according to the catholic church, suicide can't be forgiven. That is what was driven into my head when I was a child.
Anyway, I do appreciate your post. I found it very interesting. Thanks. Peace

The flip answers I toss off immediately, the serious ones I research. Good question, and I want to be sure of the bible's viewpoint.
Your question is purely hypothetical- of course- but just in case ... I'm sorry for your loss.
Regards, Doug in New Mexico, leading the nation in teen suicides.

If I felt ignored, I wouldn't be offended. I followed most of the posts in this conversation and was really impressed by some of the comments and discussions. And I still believe it to be an open discussion, so added my quesiton. I didn't do it to offend anyone or attempt to persuade a different theory on anyone. It's been my struggle all my life.
Hey, I love your State. I have spent many of my vacations in Mew Mexico. My favorite city is Santa Fe. If I could afford it, I would pack up and move there tomorrow. Peace,

offer my two cents. Jesus did not provoke His arrest and prosecution. Thus, His actions were not like someone committing suicide by provoking police officers. The charges against Him were trumped up, and the verdict a foregone conclusion. It would have been a waste of time to try to defend Himself. His encounter with Pilate caused Pilate to declare Him innocent. He did not provoke Pilate as He could have if He wished to committ suicide. Pilate tried to spare Him, but the Jewish leaders insisted that He die. In addition, He begged His Father to spare Him if possible, but was willing to be obedient unto death if necessary.

A final consideration is that His demeanor was a fulfillment of prophecy;

Isa 53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. NIV

which is a prophecy about the Messiah.

When Adam chose to disobey Jehovah, the resulting 'genetic defect' of inherited sin could not be undone without a ransom: An equal payment per the well-known standard, 'life for life.' That meant a perfect man would have to
1) come into being,
2) live by choice in perfect agreement with Jehovah's righteous standards, and
3) die.
But death is reserved only for sinners. ?And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: ?From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.?" (Ge 2:16-17) "The wages of sin is death." (Ro 6:23)
So that man, if one could be found, would surely be rewarded by Jehovah with a resurrection to life, at which time he would have the value of his perfect life and unjust death to offer as a ransom. ?Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.? (Mt 20:2
Jesus volunteered to live that life and die that death, then chose to offer his value on our behalf. I suppose all that makes him a "suicide" by some stretch, but I think a better word is "martyr." That Greek word originally meant simply "witness," but has also acquired the meaning of 'witnessing unto death.' Certainly Jesus met both definitions.
Does that satisfy your concerns?
I also have information about the relationship with God that a human suicide victim might have, if you're interested in that. I had thought you might have such a case among your friends or family. In such cases clergymen often teach that the victim is without hope of life, except perhaps in an eternal fiery hell. The bible's view, though, is quite different.
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

Thanks Doug. You obviouly have a deep faith, where I don't. Or, I should rephase that and say I have a deep faith in a higher power, in God. As I believe I have mentioned before, I was raised in the Catholic faith, actually raised in a Catholic orphanage, so all the lessons of a good catholic were beaten into us by good intention nuns. But I always struggled with the whole concept that Jesus was God. When I read the words, "Son of Man", I almost have to laugh because I believe we are all sons of man just as I believe we are all Sons of God.
I see Jesus as a Prophet. I think that fact has been lost over the many translations done over the years. In addition to that, all but one of the writings of the Gospels were written almost 70 years after the death of Jesus. The other, Mark, was written perhaps 35 years later. And that was actually a collection of his works and things he had told to others.
The process of interpretation itself, in all the translations I have ever read, admit that there is no way they can say with a certainity their translations are correct 100%. And language itself, regardless of the times, can be deceiving. Think about it for a minute. Today, "bad" is good, just to give one example.
And please don't misunderstand me. If someone wants to think or believe Jesus is God, that's fine with me.
One more thing before I close, Doug. There are many Catholics who feel as I do. I'm not alone.
Again, thanks for your thoughts. Peace, Roger

BTW, I believe what Peter believed, and of which Jesus approved: ?He said to them: ?YOU, though, who do YOU say I am?? In answer Simon Peter said: ?You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.? In response Jesus said to him: ?Happy you are, Simon son of Jo?nah, because flesh and blood did not reveal [it] to you, but my Father who is in the heavens did.? (Mt 16:15-17)
I don't know of any translation that doesn't say this, with insignificant differences.

Similarly, my bible says ?But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace? at Ps 37:11, by David. Although other bibles have slight differences in wording, I've noticed that many don't care about that. They reject the teaching as "Christian" because "it's an Old Testament teaching;" that our destiny now is Heaven or Hell. If that's true, what is the purpose of the earth. Did Jehovah forget about it?
And if it's no longer relevant, why did Jesus adopt it as his own at Mt 5:5?
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

Adam and Eve would disobey, before they did so. Or even before they were, according to the bible, created. Why not go ahead and make them with the fault in the first place, with 'genetic' sin?

Or better, why not stop Adam and Eve and start with Jonah and his family?

'bible-thumpers' insisting that God is all-wise, all-powerful, etc.
Jehovah did create A & E, the bible writers and I believe, and he created them with free will. That's the gist of Gen 2:9,16,17.

Why did he give them a choice? Because he wants all of us to serve him out of good motives: Love and appreciation for all he's given us, beginning with life. For some time (days? decades? Who knows?) Adam and his wife did so. Then they decided to set their own standards of right and wrong.

This called into question, not Jehovah's power to rule, but his right. It also put man into de facto. agreement with Satan, who called God a liar: 'He's hiding knowledge from you; you'll live better doing it my way.' It wasn't the last time Satan took this attitude: Cf. Job 1:7-12; 2:2-5; Lu 4:13. He tests us this way down to this day.

Ever since then Jehovah has allowed willing people to sanctify (clean up; "hallow") his name- he's not a liar and murderer- and to vindicate his sovereignty, or right to rule. When he says time's up- and he's already decided on the day and hour- Ka-boom!!
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

is not all powerful and all-knowing. The gift of free will and the temptation of the tree of knowledge would be too much for any person.

Ignorance isnt always bliss.

Not quite everyone: ?He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth.? (1Pe 2:22) Said about Jesus by one of his closest friends on earth.

And Jehovah agreed: ?And they sing a new song, saying: ?You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.?? (Re 5:9-10) Because Jesus excercised his free will in a godly way, and because he was able to find other humans to do likewise, God has given them authority to rule the earth in the re-creation Jehovah purposes. (Mt 19:2
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

...and if he were, we might not be here, would we?

Jesus and Mary Magdalene in the Garden ...
Hey! I feel a blockbuster coming on! Call Mel!

But seriously, folk:
The bible says just that:
?. . .Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures. . .? (1Co 15:3)
?. . .For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a man. For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. . .? (1Co 15:21-22)
?. . .Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. . .? (1Co 15:24-26)
?. . .It is even so written: ?The first man Adam became a living soul.? The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. . .? (1Co 15:45)
?. . .The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven. As the one made of dust [is], so those made of dust [are] also; and as the heavenly one [is], so those who are heavenly [are] also. And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly one. . .? (1Co 15:47-49)

So Jesus was in Adam's place, but with handicaps Adam didn't have: Surrounded by enemies, not a paradise.
?For dogs have surrounded me; The assembly of evildoers themselves have enclosed me. Like a lion [they are at] my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones. They themselves look, they gaze upon me.? (Ps 22:16-17)
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

of history, whereas Adam had none. That seems to be an advanage for Jesus.

having mens' history books in front of you? That would indeed make Jesus 'superhuman;' Q.E.D. Can't have it both ways.
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

was that Jesus existed, but Adam is just from a story. That helps.

Dan

Luke said that Adam was real enough as did Paul. Jesus Himself referred back to the Adam and Eve relationship.

How could someone be there for something that never happened?

Many people talk about things that never happened as if they did. That does not make them any more real.

Dan

There's an elephant in the room when it's standing right in front of them.

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why would you say that at this place in the thread?

Dan

My mistake.

reply non responsive, non sequitur, or both?

Please, anyone may answer.

Thanks,

Dan

mouth.? (1Pe 2:22) Said about Jesus by one of his closest friends on earth.

All seniors were given descriptive quotes by those who put the annual together. Mine was, "A kinder man treads not the earth"...

Not bad for an atheist with 'no moral compass'