Bible question. Where to research?

This is attributable to a Psalm....22:2 to be exact. It was from existing scripture in Jesus's time and from such he taught. At that time on the cross being near death, His words were obviously not clearly understood. He'd have severe breathing distress which impede clear speech.

Here's an excerpt from an answer in the Watchtower, 6/15/1987, p.31:
[quote]
Q. When on the stake, Jesus cried: ?My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?? Did he lack faith, believing that God had deserted him?
...
A. While none of us today can know with certainty all that was involved in Jesus? crying out as he did, we can note two likely motives.
...
He was sure, too, that on the third day he would be raised up. How, then, could Jesus say that God had forsaken him?
First, he could have meant it in the qualified sense that Jehovah had taken away protection from his Son so that Jesus? integrity would be tested to the limit, a painful and shameful death.
...
Connected to the foregoing is a likely second reason for Jesus? utterance while on the stake, that by using these words he could fulfill a prophetic indication about the Messiah.
...
Psalm

sounds about normal for a guy having a spear shoved in places where spears don't usually go...


.

.com for $54.00, I'll see what's available from Abebooks. I got my Liddell and Scott, Greek English Lexicon from them for peanuts. (Brand new Liddell and Scott runs about $350.00, mine was 28.00 but postage was almost as much because it's 4 inches thick.)

.com for $54.00, I'll see what's available from Abebooks. I got my Liddell and Scott, Greek English Lexicon from them for peanuts. (Brand new Liddell and Scott runs about $350.00, mine was 28.00 but postage was almost as much because it's 4 inches thick.)

The Amazon.com's Green's Interlinear is available paired with Strong's Concordance which covers precise word useage in the Greek sources. It's a tempting combination at less than $70.00.

With the help of all the information and links from everyone, reading, researching, "thunking" on it some, and praying about it, I've reconciled this now in my mind.

Thank you everyone for your help!

--Cindi
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Goes with Jesus asking the Father to forgive those who are hurting/killing him, rather than the preacher's version of not caring about the people around, but just wanting God to carry out the crucifixion.

Jesus' whole life was all about love and forgiveness, and I think that he carried that right to the end. It doesn't make sense that in the very last moments, he'd do something inconsistent with what his whole life and death stood for. Although the greek word apparently has some translations consistent with "pushing away" or "sending forth", it seems to be more in the context of forgiving us as He has removed our rebellious acts as far away from us as the east is from the west. (Psalm 103:12)

I don't agree with the preacher's statement.

--Cindi
Speakeasy Moderator
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killed Him subsequently put their faith in Him. They were then fully and completely forgiven. Jesus was, of course, asking that all who killed Him be forgiven for that act.

Getting a thread over 100 posts long?

--Cindi
Speakeasy Moderator
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The religion threads usually go over 200! Unless the Evil Mods lock 'em!
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

You have opened a very interesting discussion. I'm sort of new to this site, especially "Speakeasy" and totally enjoyed all the feedback. The discussions took me back to my college years, where I was a philosophy major and read much of what was discussed here. I remember one author who I loved reading, Hans Kuhn. He was a Catholic priest, a teacher and a philospher - actually, a great thinker, and some of his writings covered much of what this discussion did.

I like the discussions like this myself which stick to the subject, instead of who's posting.

Hope you enjoy your time here!

--Cindi
Speakeasy Moderator
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I hope you continue to find topics that draw your interest.

Feel free to introduce some yourself!

Angeline


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Did you mean perhaps Hans Kung?
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

Wun Hung Lo and Wel Hung...



.

Yes, but it has been some 45 years since I have last read him. I take it you have read some of his writings.

as you've noticed by now, discussions can be high brow, or hits below the belt here. It's like picking out the jewels from the straw, without a fire to make it easier.

from http://reviews.cnet.com/5208-6130-0.html?forumID=50&threadID=94626&messageID=1071710

"Jesus was evidently speaking about the Roman soldiers who impaled him. They did not know what they were doing, being ignorant of who Jesus really was. Of course, the religious leaders who instigated that execution were far more reprehensible, for they acted knowingly and maliciously. For many of them, no forgiveness was possible."

Why "of course?" Because it's difficult to believe Jesus would ask forgiveness for the Jews who instigated that execution when they're the same ones whom he castigated in Mt ch 23: "Woe to you, blind guides etc. etc."

And John's account of Jesus healing the man born blind ends with this exchange:
?. . .Those of the Pharisees who were with him heard these things, and they said to him: ?We are not blind also, are we?? Jesus said to them: ?If YOU were blind [ignorant], YOU would have no sin. But now YOU say, ?We see.? YOUR sin remains.?? (Joh 9:40-41)

It's important to note that a sinner can't expect forgiveness if he isn't repentant. (Acts 2:3 (And just being sorry you got caught doesn't count!) If the leaders were repentant nine chapters later they wouldn't have been pestering Pilate for the death penalty.

newadvent.org is very useful, but they really need to get their own bible.
Another one I like is The Nazareth Master Catechism,
http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/master2.htm
I can be sure I'm knowing correct RC teaching when I discuss it.
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

Peter tells us that God is not willing that anyone perish, but desires that all come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). Jesus told us to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us (Matt. 5:44). Jesus was simply practicing what He had told His followers they should do, and He would certainly include the Jews in that prayer.

His earlier condemnations were intended to confront the sin of the Scribes and Pharisees with the blunt truth, and the need for repentance. Paul tells us that we should speak the truth in love. I think that is what Jesus was doing.

AFAIK, the only sin that Jesus suggested is 'unforgiveable' is to slander the Holy Spirit. Great caution is needed when we speak of the Holy Spirit and His work.

You appear to be well read with regard to the Bible. I have a question for you, just something that I have struggled with most of my adult life. As a Catholic, I was raised to believe that if one takes his own life, he then cannot be forgiven the sin of suicide.
Now, if you think about it for a minute, with an open mind, wouldn't you think that Jesus actually did commit suicide? He went forward, knowing the outcome, knowing he was about to die and did nothing to change the outcome. There is no question that if he had spoken when questioned by Pilate, he would have lived. But he never attempted to defend himself.
He wanted to die. To my way of thinking, that is suicide.
Today, sometimes the BAD guys point an empty guy at a cop and he is shot. It's called suicide by a cop. He set out to have himself killed. That is considered suicide. At least to my thinking it is.
Can you help me to see this argument in another light?

I'm also Catholic but my early "indoctrination" was limited and I don't claim to be well versed in the Bible myself. I accept the teaching authority of the Church but do enjoy these kind of discussions. If I really want an answer, I will consult the proper authority. As for the question of sin, I believe it's still proper to refer to what we learned as the "conditions" of it. Of of these is that the deed was done "willingly". Jesus was condemned to death not by Pilate and the romans but by local jews following a flawed trial by the Sanhedron (Jewish court). He did not resist his penalty. To say that is suicide could mean that those todays folks convicted of capital crimes and who did not resist their death walk to the execution chamber were possibly guilty of suicide. As for Jesus, He always knew His body must be sacrificed and accepted it. The body died but the diety did not and could not. Such is my vague response. Welcome rogerpaul.

I am not trying to change anyone's beliefs or create any doubts. I believe that if someone goes into something, an action, knowing the outcome, then they are responsible for that action. And while I agree with you regarding who was indeed responsible for Jesus' death, in the end, it was Pilate who issued the death command.
As for the folks who are convicted of capital crimes - - The reason it takes so long for the state to kill them is that they continue to fight their conviction and death sentence. FOR YEARS!
Very few of them give up that struggle. And in truth, we have no idea how many of them fight all the way to the death chamber.
I recently read an articule about a young man from my home town, who was visiting his mother in P.R. They were on the beach, swimming when his mother got into trouble in the water and he went after her. I doubt he thought he would die in his attempt, but he did. I would call that a major sacrifice.
I am sure Jesus was a special man, a holy man, and a wise man, but I really have a hard time believing he is God. And as I have said, I have struggled with this all my life. And thank you for taking the time to respond. Peace to you