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Resolved Question

Best Camcorder for Beginners

Aug 12, 2014 12:50PM PDT

My friend and I need a professional camcorder for making short films, music covers/originals, and product reviews.
We don't really have the money for professional recording equipment in terms of audio, so we are generally looking for a digital camcorder that can do the following:

-Shoot in 1080p
-Film at 60p (might settle for 30p)
-Have an optical zoom feature
-Works well in low or high lighting
-Has USB port for transferring to PC
-Hard Disk format

We would also like the following if possible:

-High quality Mic
OR
-External Microphone Port
PLUS
-Manual Controls
-Viewfinder
-Image Stabilizer

Our budget is about $300-700, and any and all suggestions are welcome. Also, if we must get an external microphone, Do you have any suggestions? We will be filming mostly inside, though outside as well. describe the setup too. Is it just an external mic that we would need or an entire setup? Not sure we could afford the setup.

Thanks in advance!

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IcedEarth2010 has chosen the best answer to their question. View answer

Best Answer

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I generally agree with Terfyn, and would like
Aug 13, 2014 4:11AM PDT

to take this opportunity as a "learning moment".
<pause>
I re-read this. I sincerely do not mean to come off sounding like a jerk and truly mean to provide useful information. Please take it as that. I know it is impossible to hear the voice inflections in this writing. I am really trying to help.
<resume>

You say you and your friend "need a professional camcorder". I'd like to understand what you mean by that. My definition of a "professional camcorder" is one that has a 67mm or larger filter diameter, a 1/3 inch or larger 3CMOS or 3CCD imaging sensor array or a single APS-C sized imaging sensor and XLR audio inputs. When the camcorder has these three things, all the other pro-grade features are included - like separate manual focus and zoom rings, manual audio gain control, and a bunch of other manual settings (white balance, zebra, video gain, etc.) on the outside of the camcorder, not buried in a menu.

If your definition of "professional camcorder" is different, please let us know what that is. If you agree with the above definition, the closest I can get you is the Sony NEX-EA50UH. It is a lot more than your stated budget. Most of the major camcorder manufacturers make "compact" camcorders in their pro line that are generally a sibling to a consumer grade camcorder - but perhaps with different firmware. Normally, these are to used as a "primary" camera, but as a second camera to some other main more robust video capture system.

That said, GoPro, Sony and several others have been used professionally. They are not designed to be used to meet your requirements - I'm just making the point that "professional" has different meanings.

Camcorders range in price from about $100 to about $80,000. At the low end, the lenses are small as are the single imaging chips. In order to capture decent video, adding a lot of light is needed. Most under about $300 do not have a mic jack, so external recording and later synch during editing is required. Not difficult to do, but an extra step. In the case of feature length or short subjects, recording audio externally (even if the video capture device has decent audio recording capabilities) is common.

Terfyn made a suggestion on a camcorder that is in your budget. It is in the low to nearly mid-range of consumer camcorders. The Panasonic HC-V750 has a 49mm filter diameter spec and a single CMOS sensor of 1/2.3 inch. The audio input is a single 1/5" (3.5mm) stereo audio input.As good as it is, it is nowhere near "professional" grade.

I have found that ALL camcorder built-in mics a "good". The problem is that they are built-in - so when the mics are in the right place for the audio, the camcorder is not in the right place for proper video framing... and when the video looks right, then the mics are not in the right place. That's why external mics or recording devices are useful - there is no dependency on the camcorder placement.

You also recognize that you don't have the budget for professional audio equipment. Terfyn's suggestion to use a Zoom H2 is a good one - I don't think they are made anymore - so look at the H2n or even the H1. There is no single best mic. The built-in mics on many of the Zoom H-series can be optioned for different pickup patterns. Because it is a separate piece of equipment, it can be placed where the audio is good and not impact the camcorder placement which needs to be where the video framing is good.

What you have not mentioned are steadying devices (tripods are common, but there are lots of others). Do not capture video handheld. There is no stabilizer in any camcorder that can effectively deal with not using some sort of stabilizer. Nothing screams "amateur" louder than hand-held captured video. Sliders, camera cranes, vest systems with counter-balanced/articulated arms or handheld stabilizers are all other useful stabilizing items.

You have not indicated anything about lighting. It can be as simple as a battery powered, camera mounted video light (use a camera bracket), a couple of clamp-lights, a couple of tripod-mounted work lights from the hardware store or as complex as a bunch of PAR56 cans mounted to light trees and trusses controlled by a sophisticated dimmer system... or something in-between. ANY camcorder can provide decent video under good lighting conditions. The camcorders with the bigger lens diameter and bigger imaging chips have a much wider window of opportunity to behave well under less than ideal lighting conditions.

And we assume that you have access to a computer with CPU, RAM and hard drive space capable of dealing with the video you will be capturing and you already have a decent video editor (and not something bundled or free).

I would LOVE to spend less money on camera gear to get better video quality. After the last 15 years and 6 camcorders (starting at the low end and moving up), I can assure you that as you move into more expensive camcorders and audio gear, the video and audio quality increases. Video is a hobby I take pretty seriously.

To have a requirement for pro-grade gear but not have the budget even close to support that requirement is setting yourself up for disappointment. It is up there with "I need a large crew cab truck to carry lots of people and carry lots of stuff like homebuilders do - but my budget won't cover that, so which 2-door sedan can do the same thing?" I'm not saying that you can't produce good, compelling, video - you can, and many do - but you should give serious consideration to rethinking your expectations and adjust the requirements and budget accordingly.

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Apologies for a couple of typos
Aug 13, 2014 6:19AM PDT

3rd paragraph, last sentence starts with "<span id="INSERTION_MARKER">Normally, these are to used as a "primary" camera," should read, "Normally, these are not used as a primary camera..."

6th paragraph, second-to-last sentence reads, "The audio input is a single 1/5" (3.5mm) stereo audio input" should read "The audio input is a single 1/8" (3.5mm) stereo audio input."

There are probably more. Sorry about that - wish we could edit this stuff.

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I see...
Aug 14, 2014 1:09PM PDT

I have actually heard about the Zoom H2n and was thinking about getting that, but wasn't sure if I would need extra cords and equipment. Will I need a mixer with that particular mic?

Here's some useful stuff for filming that I already have:

For editing, special effects, and sound engineering I use Sony Vegas Pro 13, HitFilm 2 Ultimate, and Sound Forge Pro 11. Vegas Pro should be enough for my editing needs; Sound Forge should help with the mics if I'm picking up too much extra noise.

It might also help to know that unrelated to the budget, I'm getting a green screen kit with adequate lighting. The lighting feature on the camera I was looking for was for anything we filmed outside in case we filmed during dark days or nights.

Maybe I should have said 'semi-professional'. We're going to be a small production company, but we're not quite there yet. I was looking for something that would get us as close to a professional level on the limited budget I mentioned. Perhaps later, we will be able to invest in something better.

Yes, the PC is quite capable. A tripod was definitely on our list of what to get, but what other suggestions do you have?

I agree on the editing posts - I did the same thing with mine above. And not to come off as rude, but you sounded a little pretentious in the earlier portion of your first post.

Thanks in advance!

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Thank you for the feedback...
Aug 15, 2014 1:24AM PDT

I make every effort to convey accurate information - sometimes it does not "read" well. I've been working on that - and will continue to work on improving. Thank you for overlooking my apparent pretentiousness - that was never my intention.

The Zoom H2n (and similar digital audio recorders) have built-in mics. They don't need to connect to anything as the audio captured can be recorded to a flash memory card in the recorder. However, they do have a mic input to use an external mic if needed and also have an audio output for monitoring or connecting to another device - like a camcorder with a mic input. There are recorders that do not have built-in mics (Fostex makes some). Before you buy *anything* substantial, aways download the device's manual from the manufacturer's web site to be sure it does what you want. The H2n has a single stereo audio input so not a "mixer" exactly. Technically, the Zoom H4n and H5 are 2-mic mixers (the H6 is a 4 mic mixer) + recorder + built-in mics.

For your reading pleasure:
http://www.zoom.co.jp/products/h2n/downloads/

http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/HC-V750K?t=manuals
In this case, you can see that all your requirements are met - with the exception of the hard disc drive - which Terfyn discounted. The "manual controls" may be presented in a format different than you were expecting (i.e., not a ring on the lens barrel, but a thumb-wheel or manual audio gain control in the options menu).

For live music, I generally place the audio recorder in the acoustic "sweet spot" (if possible) and that decouples the audio capture from the camcorder (so no cables). Later, in post, use the camcorder's audio to sync (when the echo is gone, you're synchronized).

If you choose to use the H2n (or H5) as *the* mic, it is up to you whether additional cables are needed - depending on how the audio recording and video recording are done. You do not need an audio mixer unless you need to deal with more audio inputs than the camcorder or the audio recorder can deal with. For example, if a short film project calls for more than one or two people to be mic'd up and using a shotgun mic is not possible and you decide using 4 wireless lavalieres is needed, then you might consider a mixer to capture the audio from the four lavs and connect the mixer to a computer or the audio recorder or run a cable to the camcorder's audio input.

Your audio and video editing software look to be just fine.

On low light... there are a couple of ways to do that. If you can control the situation, consider capturing the video under good lighting conditions - and plan to use "day for night" editing techniques. There are a couple of methods, this is one example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MaC44MU4iw
The result will be less grainy video capture and (hopefully) a safer experience for cast and crew because of the increased visibility.

For steadying devices, in addition to a tripod, dolly shots using a wagon with slightly flat air-filled wheels,
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Farm-Ranch-3-cu-ft-400-lb-Capacity-Steel-Utility-Cart-FR110-2/203222845
letting a little air out of the wheels helps smooth some of the bumps - but not big bumps. And it helps to transport your gear to/from vehicles to the location if needed.
or a slider
http://www.kesslercrane.com/product-p/pocket_dolly_v2_basic.htm
can be really useful. Kessler makes great gear - but I understand your budget. I used this an an example, only. For the moment, a camera crane may be impossible, but mounting the camera to something tall (light tree, ladder, etc and use of a pan-tilt head
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/64399-REG/Bescor_MP101_MP_101_Motorized_Pan_Head.html
may get you close to what you want... or merely pointing the camera out the side window of a car or mounting the camera on the car
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/844418-REG/Digital_Juice_DJ_SMS_GIOTTO_BHEAD_Suction_Mount_Series_Giottos.html
Don't drive fast... or use a pick-up truck bed... or open the side door of a minivan (did that once with a VW camper) for example, tracking someone walking on the sidewalk... be sure the device's weight rating is well over the weight of your camera - you will have less need to re-purchase accessories when you get a new camera... or perhaps a hand-held stabilizer - examples include Steadycam Merlin 2, Glidecam and many others... Planning ahead helps, too - you might not be able to afford the vest and articulated/counterbalanced arm now - but if you want it later, making the right choice for the hand-held stabilizer may prevent you from having to buy it again later because whatever was initially purchased was not designed to work with the vest system... I am not a big "shoulder rig" fan. If the camera operator styx in one place, they are OK - any deviation results in "issues" - so if you stay in one place, why not just use the tripod...

And we don't know where you are located - a lot of this stuff may be rentable... so use it on a per-project basis if it is something not used frequently.

Hope this helps.

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Thank you!
Aug 15, 2014 1:58PM PDT

The Panasonic will be perfect, same with one of the Zoom mics you recommended - going to compare specs and price. That Youtube guide for lighting was quite informative, too. Thanks for the tip on the pan-tilt head btw; almost didn't think of that...

Honestly, thanks to you and Terfyn, I'd say this thread is solved.

Thank you!

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Answer
Panasonic HC-V750
Aug 12, 2014 3:15PM PDT

This is the camera I own and use so I can recommend it. The only two boxes it does not tick are the HDD, it uses SD cards, and it has no viewfinder. I find it better not to have the viewfinder as using the camera close to a face can generate operator noise which will be picked up on the internal mics. The 750 LCD is so good I have never needed a shade even in the brightest sunlight. Zoom is 20x optical or up to 50x without any loss of quality. OIS is the best I have come across.

Personally I would avoid a camera based HDD simply because if it fails then your camera is useless. With SD cards, which are cheap, you can replace at any time, plus you would have the choice of USB to your PC or just removing the SD card and putting it in the card reader on your PC.

The mics on the 750 are good for inside and close up work, there are four for surround 5.1 or for stereo. Any good external mic will work, I prefer stereo electret condenser mics which use an AA battery for self power. Output to headphones id included.
Avoid cheap wireless mics as they can pick up interference, again an extension lead to your mic is better. Plus you can get decent audio mixers for multiple mic operation.
I also use a 33dB attenuator lead which lets me connect any device with a headphone out socket to the mic input of the camera. (example might be a MP3 player) I connect my Zoom H2 audio recorder, which acts as a quality external mic, or my keyboard to the camera for direct recording.

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Thank you, Terfyn!
Aug 14, 2014 12:46PM PDT

The Panasonic HC-V750 sounds like a great choice. While near the end of our budget, it seems absolutely perfect for what we need it for. Viewfinder wasn't that important to us anyway and I didn't know that about SD cards compared to the HDD.

I have actually heard about the Zoom H2n and was thinking about getting that, but wasn't sure if I would need extra cords and equipment. Will I need a mixer with that particular mic?

Many of our videos may be filmed outside, though I'm not perfectly sure. Here's some useful stuff for filming that I have in addition to what you suggested:

For editing, special effects, and sound engineering I use Sony Vegas Pro 13, HitFilm 2 Ultimate, and Sound Forge Pro 11. Sound Forge should help with the mics if I'm picking up too much extra noise.

A 33dB attenuator lead... I'll have to write that down. Thanks for the suggestions!

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Zoom H2n, Green screen and SD cards
Aug 14, 2014 3:18PM PDT

The Zoom H2n comes complete and will act as a stand alone recorder which can be sync'd to your video in post production. You will need the attenuator lead if you want to use it as an external mic to your camera.

Green screen can be tricky. You will need a flat screen and flat lighting i.e. No shadows. Any change in the colour density from the screen will show up as your editor will be locked to an exact brightness of green from the screen. I light directly from behind the camera.
Both the Zoom and the 750 take SD cards.
A good size is 32Gb Class 10.
Always format and re-format the card in the machine you intend to use it for. Formatting in the PC will not work as the camera (for example) sets up a series of folders to store housekeeping info as well as the video and still photos.

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Thanks again!
Aug 15, 2014 1:50PM PDT

I have a lot of information from this post and your last one copied and pasted so I don't forget any details. I'll end this thread over the next couple of days.

That certainly helped a lot. Thank you, Terfyn!

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Answer
useful post !!
Mar 3, 2015 3:21PM PST

I have also wondered which camera to purchase, by checking this post , it really helped me a lot.