General discussion

ATTENTION Speakeasy forum members: Please read carefully

Dec 5, 2005 7:45AM PST

Dear SE folks,

I've been asked to post this message below on behalf of the SE Mods and I hope you really take at heart as what is being asked from each and every one of you. So please read it carefully, print it out if you have to, but let it be known that if things do continue to go down this degrading path--we all will be at the risk of losing SE completely. If you care about this community that you so passionately are a part of, read the message below and contribute to the cause to make SE a friendly and constructive environment that everyone can enjoy. If you can't contribute anything healthy to it, you are simply not welcomed here any longer. From this day on the choice is yours--because there will come a time in the near future when the business decision of keeping SE around will be revisited and I hope when that moment does arrive, the decision will be a positive one.

Thank you for your time, understanding, and cooperation.

-Lee Koo
CNET Community

*** Message to all SE forum participants ***

Dear SE

We've had numerous correspondence and phone conversations with Lee Koo over what has become a very deteriorated version of SE over the last few years. What we've discovered from him leaves us all in a very precarious position of being able to keep SE available and not have it pulled completely. The SE Mods have decided to share this information with all of you in the hopes that you will all take it to heart (and that includes the Moderators since we're members as well) and learn from this information enough to have all of us change our habits regarding posting and replies.

First and foremost is that SE is here as a favor to us ONLY. The Powers That Be didn't want to include SE in the new CNET format when it bought out ZDNET a few years back, but Lee fought for us and was given permission to leave it as an off-topic discussion area since the entire rest of the CNET site is all technology oriented, which is why the free Help forums have remained. Lee is the one who catches the flack the most regarding what happens here in SE....and the following statement/paragraph will explain how that happens.

When a Modalert is sent by anyone within any of the forums, including SE, we have all been under the impression that those alerts go to Lee Koo and all of the Moderators, whether they Moderate in that particular forum where the Modalert is generated or not. This part is whatever stink is going on in SE at that time, all Moderators everywhere get the notice.

What we didn't know, and now all of us will have that knowledge, is that the Modalerts also go to many technical, customer relations, website developers, and others high in the 'food chain' that Lee has to answer to....and the more garbage that is not only posted in SE but also Alerted to via the Modalerts, the greater the adverse reflection on Lee, the forum, and the SE Mods. It is on this basis that decisions will be made by those higher than Lee about whether SE is going to be able to survive or get yanked because it also reflects to all new membership as they register and wander into SE.

So, no matter how good the content of the post, if it contains a 'zinger' of any kind, or a snide remark, a blatant insult to members or a culture, or any other derogatory type comment, the post will be removed. There will be no emails about it (figure it out on your own and repost the content that you really want to be shown); there will be no discussions about it publicly so don't even think about asking ''why'' because that post will be removed as well; there will be no insults to the Moderators about censorship or 'thought police' or 'pc correct' garbage.

There will, from now on, be respect for each other. You don't have to agree with a post...but you will have to 'argue' that difference with respect for the other person's opinion. There will be no 'zingers' about how somebody shouldn't have an opinion just because they don't live here in the USA. CNET, and thus Speakeasy, is a world-wide community, and as such we have members from all over the world, and they're entitled to their opinions and biases as much as you are. Everyone will never agree, but we CAN learn from each others' cultures, beliefs, and open mind is a sponge; soak up the knowledge that others have and you better yourself in the long run. The door of knowledge swings both ways....information is the key.....insults slam the door the fastest.

No one needs lectures from other members about their lifestyles or can get your point and information across without making the post sound derisive and putting the other party on the defensive. If someone is wrong about the facts they've posted, it's easy to post the correct information without sending a personal message that suggests or blatantly accuses the poster of being anything other than factually incorrect. It must be kept in mind that ''facts'' are often gleaned from different sources, whether main-stream, non-mainstream, blogs, web sites, foreign in origination, etc. All of these can present facts, but the spin and the selection of aspects of a story, although true, can be biased. We may all trust those that fit our views more, but we also have to realize that there are different points of view while presenting facts. As said before, the opposite view can be posted without insulting remarks about the messenger. The ideal is the ''counter to an argument by using a better argument'', not attacking the messenger.

There has also been a continuation of carrying over old baggage, old hurts (real or perceived), that has colored many posts. These must be put behind us.

Basically, this is it...SE may well be singing its swan's up to all of us to make sure it doesn't die. There will be NO favoritism shown with deletions. It doesn't matter who you are, how long you've been around, your political or religious persuasion, or what color your eyes are....if you care about SE and its future, think before you hit that submit button.

Thank you ALL for your understanding and cooperation....and ''ALL'' includes the Moderators who will also be practicing what we're 'preaching'.

SE Mods

Discussion is locked

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Dec 5, 2005 7:58AM PST

surely do hope we pay attention because I enjoy seeing what other people think and how they arrived there. Ain't we supposed to be adults?

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(NT) (NT) I'm taking 2 days
Dec 5, 2005 7:59AM PST
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(NT) (NT) Read and acknowledged.
Dec 5, 2005 8:24AM PST
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(NT) (NT) Read, acknowledged and appreciated, Lee. Thanks.
Dec 5, 2005 9:46AM PST
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Hasn't this same message...Plea.....
Dec 5, 2005 9:47AM PST

?..been promulgated on more than a single occasion previously ?

Whoever has the ?master? delete button needs to pay attention.

The majority of threads that ?go south? develop in direct response, challenge if you will, to an initial vitriolic post.

Speaking only for myself, I care to believe that most members would be more than happy, and willing, to assist in ?mopping the floor?. All that is asked is that someone ?turn off the faucet? first.

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The plea of which you speak....
Dec 5, 2005 8:33PM PST

.... was just that --- a plea. In the interim there have been mini-pleas in threads, personal pleading emails to members.

Over the years we have made what I believe is has been a good effort to give members their say, while being accused of censorship. We have made no claim of being perfect or as unfailingly wise.

But this notice goes beyond a plea. It addresses facts not known before that clearly set forth the precarious position faced by Speakeasy. This is real, not just another "idle" plea by us. This notice speaks as to why.

As noted, CNet is a business, and reached world wide. Speakeasy exists due to Lee fighting for it to remain.

It now stands that the onus is on our members (we mods are memebrs, too) to save Speakeasy. For those who care, they will cooperate. For those who do not care, the alerts will be seen by the company, which can tip the scales.

Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email

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Something about ''Spirit and Intent''
Dec 5, 2005 10:48PM PST

Hi Angeline,

The root problem, as it exists, IMO, is due to the fact that some here really don't realize their contributions to the problem, and until they are 'hit in the head', and made to realize, the slippery slope is getting steeper.

Words like the following speak volumes, and if one were to audit the problem ''vitriolic'' threads, IMO, many, if not most of those threads originated with: ?.....The opinions expressed above are my own, and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!.....?. An attitude, clearly defined.

''Plea's'' have been made to Lee about this ''member'', citing specific threads and instances, with no results.

Someone must ''turn off the faucet'', before we can mop the floor.

I don't like confrontation, but if we're going to solve this problem, let's get specific. Name names, call members on their transgressions, get specific, and leave nothing to doubt. Speakeasy can weather the storm of civil debate, it cannot continue to accomodate the "streaming" flow of personal hatred.

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Most of those posts....
Dec 5, 2005 10:56PM PST

...are only considered "vitriolic" by those members who happen to disagree with the opinions being expressed in them.

Other members (and yes, other moderators) have posted opinions just as strong, but on the other side of the aisle, yet those are not called "vitriolic" or "trolling."

If someone routinely posts opinions that you strongly disagree with, or if you just don't like someone, IMO the the best recourse is to ignore them.

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(NT) Hi Pardner,
Dec 5, 2005 11:58PM PST

Hi Josh,

You've called it correctly.

I wish this forum had the option built in, like others, where I could put people on an "ignore" list. Then I am not aware when "the gauntlet is thrown".

I don't think I'm alone when I state that the only satisfaction I really take away from politics, is the opportunity to "poke fun" at a political personality.

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I have my own personal "Ignore" list
Dec 6, 2005 12:37AM PST

I'm sure other members have them too. Sometimes mine works and sometimes it's like that container of curdled milk in your fridge; you know it's going to smell just awful but you can't stop yourself from taking a whiff before you throw it out.

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(NT) (NT) ;-)...;-)
Dec 6, 2005 12:46AM PST
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:^) :^)
Dec 6, 2005 1:04AM PST

Hi Josh,

Giggles from moi. Too bad we lost DE, I'm almost certain he'd enjoy your analysis.

Hopefully I'll meet him in heaven, if I get in....


Rick " El Conejo del Chocolato " Jones

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There's always the danger of something being said,,,
Dec 5, 2005 10:41AM PST

That's why we need censorship.


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The problem isn't what's said, EdH,
Dec 5, 2005 11:58AM PST

it's the WAY that it's said. There's a difference between saying that someone has a wrong-headed idea, and that the someone is wrong-headed. To borrow a phrase from Aretha, the issue is R-E-S-P-E-C-T.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email

(Note the absence of the usual disclaimer).

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Please, Dave, Please
Dec 6, 2005 12:05AM PST

Read, and reread your post. I agree completely !

For the past couple of weeks I've wondered why you have been uncharacteristically quiet. This thread must have been in preparation.

I'm buying. Ready to go get a drink, and laugh about all of this ?

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(NT) (NT) What are we going to drink?
Dec 6, 2005 12:45AM PST
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Choice of beers from Sierra Blanca in Carrizozo;
Dec 7, 2005 7:33AM PST

they make excellent root beer and ginger ale, too. Mac will swing by the brewery on his way north. Right, Mac? Happy

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I've mainly been quiet because I've been busy at work,
Dec 6, 2005 12:47AM PST

and also getting tired of the increasing friction on the forum. And unfortunately we saw last week what happens if I post a message quickly, without thinking about all the possible ways in which what I've said can be misinterpreted.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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A real problem, huh ?
Dec 6, 2005 12:56AM PST

Re ".....all the possible ways in which what I've said can be misinterpreted....."

One time, a long time ago, I was enrolled in a multi-week training course that included oral presentations and written reports. There was a "slogan" used thruout "Speak, not only that you may be understood, but so that you may not possibly be mis-understood". In a place like SE, I would take that to mean "Forever hold your Peace".

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(NT) (NT) LOL!
Dec 6, 2005 3:21AM PST
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On a more humorous note
Dec 5, 2005 11:06AM PST

Perhaps my students are rubbing off on me... but the easy solution seems to be for everyone to avoid the "Modalert" button no matter the offense... :-P

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I reckon....
Dec 5, 2005 8:45PM PST

.... there will be the spammer, the hit-and runner, the advertiser, and a few blatant ones we miss. Happy

But personal insults, baiting, flaming, snide remarks, and in-fighting will hopefully - and necessarily, will cease to exist.

Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email

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That won't happen.
Dec 5, 2005 9:07PM PST

There will be many passers-by that would use the modalert for offensive posts even if the regulars here quit using it. The easy solution is really for everyone to act civil and mature in their discussions. That's all that's really needed.

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Dec 5, 2005 9:10PM PST

It might be a good idea for the regulars here to use to alert mods here of content that could be harmful to the continuation of the community instead of using the modalert button so that content can be removed before someone else uses the modalert on it...

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Newbie here wants to kow...
Dec 5, 2005 9:28PM PST

WHAT and WHERE is a modalert button??
And WHY?- although this is probably self explanatory.

From an aussie sheila Grin

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Dec 5, 2005 9:34PM PST

is that link to "Report Offensive Post" you see in each post here. It is used to send a link to the moderators, and many others in the CNet chain of command, that something in the post offends you and violates the rules here. Look to the right of my name at the bottom of this post.

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In a post you are reading
Dec 5, 2005 9:35PM PST

down next to the 'posted by' the member's name and date and time, is a link that says "report offensive post". That link is the 'modalert' button....and it's in every CNET forum.

A window will open up so you can type in your comment about what you find offensive about the post you just read, but sometimes new members think it can be used to get personal attention regarding a computer problem, and they go into details about the problem, hoping somebody will email them back personally with a resolution, instead of posting it into the forum itself using the Add New Message or Reply To This Post.


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G'day there Toni + C1ay, how SLOOOOW am I ????....
Dec 5, 2005 10:20PM PST

I always see that there....can't believe I haven't READ that and read what I SEE.

Have I confused you now?

I have me ...

THAT'S why I asked this question!

DARN IT!! I thought I would have a go at building a computer too....LOL Grin


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With all the work you put into
Dec 5, 2005 10:32PM PST

getting that one set up (lots of great phone conversations between us...that international calling plan I got is wonderful), you would do well if you wanted to build your own. You learn quickly and are great at actually doing the steps, even when we were wrong and had you chasing your tail for some things we hoped would work, and you have patience to keep plugging along....which is more than half the battle.


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'allo darling,
Dec 6, 2005 1:52AM PST

Hello Mandy,

I built my first one, last year. Athlon 2800 , half gig single channel memory, 128 vid card, Win2000 operating system, 90gig hdd. runs pretty good, though the motherboard sometimes gives a ''warm boot'' weird thingy upon startup. I shoulda gotten a full gig of memory, but at the time twas too expensive. Ended up costing a tad more than what I could have bought in like, a store, but she's quiet, fast and sweet. Happy

Rick Jones,

Houston, Texas, USA, North America, westernhemisphere, pale blue dot. Happy

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