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Are our Mods loosing control on Speakeasy?

by taboma / December 26, 2009 6:12 PM PST

Are our Mods loosing control on Speakeasy? Are they following the posts and threads?

Recently there was a lock initiated by Jonah Jones and reported by Mark Flax concerning threads concerning the Acadia Heat Pump.
Too long and consuming precious space on the server. Give me a break will you Mark. It is all text. I worked IT.

I really thought it was initiated by John Wilkinson. My apologies John.

Just recently I went into my email after two days on vacation and found a post to me from Jonah and how to restore the threads for the Acadia Heat Pump.
That was nice for him to say he was sorry. Jonah gave me a hint on how to restore the threads and gave me a CNET link.
Next I posted a new Post on Speakeasy ?Acadia Heat Pump threads revisited.?
I mentioned that Jonah was our Mod and trying to help us out. I wasn?t sure of how his link would work and asked for his help.
That was cool I think.

Next I saw a link from Angeline B. stating I demanded that my links be reinstated or something to that effect. And nothing could be done.
That is absolutely wrong. I never demanded anything. I made a suggestion to Mark and to restore the links.
Jonah Jones knows what I wrote to Mark.

I started a new post that reads??Hallowell Acadia Stage 1, 2 and 3.? last Tuesday that seems to be going haywire with certain members here suggesting I call the powers that be and to have a separate HVAC Forum set up. Good suggestion.

Since that point certain members are sending links concerning their kitchen stoves to my post. How about that! Maybe they think that is funny to them and ridicule other CNET members trying to have a discussion that is important to the whole world: Saving energy and our dependence on foreign crude oil conversion to home heating, #1 and #2 and gasoline.
I do know that Jonah knows about that problem.

Did any Mod come into the discussion and offer their idea that a kitchen stove was off subject??
Stay on subject please! No one at all. Not Jonah, Jack, Angeline or any other Mod here.
I am trying to be nice and will answer anything off subject, no matter what with most links.
From wood stoves to single malt scotch on any link concerning my original post concerning heat pumps.

I should not have to mention to any CNET member that their subject is off subject. It should not be up to me at all!

Where is the control on Speakeasy lately!??

Anyone or any Mod want to respond and contribute your thoughts here!??



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Not my finest moment.
by MarkFlax Forum moderator / December 26, 2009 8:25 PM PST

My apologies Kevin. I agreed with the lock originally without considering the continuing importance of the discussion.

I have added a post to your new discussion, "Acadia Heat Pump threads revisited", and I hope that is OK for you.

I have locked the "Hallowell Acadia Stage 1,2 and 3" thread as it had quickly gone off course. If you disagree, let me know.

Again Kevin, my apologies.


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Not my finest moment.
by taboma / December 27, 2009 8:05 AM PST
In reply to: Not my finest moment.

Mark Flax. Thank you. And thank you for locking Hallowell Acadia Stage 1,2 and 3" post.
Mark, I agree with you and respect your decision.


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You made the choice
by Angeline Booher / December 27, 2009 5:49 AM PST

...... to present your "case" in this forum, I will respond here, although the preferred avenue for personal comments has been via email.

In your post:;posts#3204813

 you wrote:

"Unlock the original posts." A declarative statement.

I repeat my previous comments re: you having started a previous thread on the subject, thus I believe you have had the benefit of extensive coverage on the boar. I notice you did not comment on the loading lag the over 300 posts presented. I thought you may have been unaware of the frustration that had caused.

Those of us who celebrate the Holiday Season can be occupied with those demands. I know that I have been, so my attention has not been as focused on policing your thread as you deem necessary.Mods are not paid to sit at our keyboards for 8 hour stints.

I did post in the thread what I hoped would be a reminder of the Spirit of the Season:

<Peace On Earth to Men of Good Will.
by Angeline Booher - 12/24/09 7:27 AM
In reply to: And so maybe you can tell me by Steven Haninger
Let us embrace the Spirit of this Holy time.>

Have you read any other threads "lately" , or are you basing your critique on your own thread?

This is my last contribution on the topic. I cannot make any pledge to you that I will be a better policeman in the future because I do the best I can already, knowing full well I have not and will not please everybody.;

Happy New Year.


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You made the choice: Hallowell Acadia Stage 1,2 and 3"
by taboma / December 27, 2009 8:15 AM PST
In reply to: You made the choice

Angeline, Happy New Year to you also.


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You made the choice
by taboma / December 27, 2009 4:02 PM PST
In reply to: You made the choice

Happy New Year to you and your family. Thanks.


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I contacted jonah in august about the thread
by James Denison / December 29, 2009 7:37 AM PST
In reply to: You made the choice

Can't remember if he replied. Told him Firefox was unable to access the thread anymore due to it's length or some other issue. Only in IE was the thread accessible and even then it might time out before presenting. I did find a Firefox work around using about:config and extending the time allowed for a URL to load.

So, for whatever reason, (could it be the way it conveniently would reappear each time it vanished off the front page?) the original thread was locked. Maybe it was for the inconvenience I noted above, or some other reason.

However, this bawling about things being off topic is ridiculous. The whole premise of the thread was about saving energy for heat and cooling as noted several times by Steven too. Early on in the original thread I and others contributed along those lines and there didn't seem to be any problem.

So, now the great upset is because it's not about a brand specific home appliance and the bully pulpit it commands for that appliance, including the company representative who is so graciously willing to come to the thread to talk about the appliance they manufacture? Am I the only one that begins to wonder about the why of this? No, wait, Steven beat me to that, even comparing to an infomercial. I doubt we two are the only ones that have begun to wonder over it.

I for one am left wondering why this one particular thread seems to be catered to so much?

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I contacted jonah in august about the thread
by taboma / December 29, 2009 3:18 PM PST

James are you through?

After thinking about it, Mark Flax was correct to lock the thread because of so many bogus posts back to us here at CNET were under fictitious bogus names.
Who are we suppose to believe. You and Steven and others? I don?t think so.

Thank you Mark Flax. You opened up my eyes concerning these threads.
It took me a few days to analyze it. You were right on!!!
WOW!! Thank you Mods! Good work!

Mark, here is an example from Jon: He claims his system works on stage 1 at ?15F up in Ottawa.
My reply to Jon: You are wrong. The Acadia does not work like that at all in Ottawa or New England on stage 1 ever. Give me a break will you!! That is absolutely a ridiculous claim and statement!

Let's face it, Hallowell needs the Energy Star Status back that they have lost this year.
I wonder why they lost it!!
We will never receive a Federal Tax credit nor a rebate from Cool Smart saving ever!
Does everyone know about that?

I hate it when a manufacturer such as Hallowell goes out to these bogus CNET member testimonials touting their system!

Has everyone read your Hallowell book and how it works?

OK, Chip Lucas, what is going on here? And do not ask your testimonial members here on CNET to respond here.
Am I correct?

I have a number of issues that needs to be resolved.
Who are real Acadia owners? Right now I do not trust anyone and their claims concerning the Acadia Heat Pump and testimonials.

This evening, Dec. 29, W/14F ODT, my home temp is at 61F for over four hours and the Acadia cannot go up by one degrees interior temp.
I shut the heat off for a few minutes and after that I had a blinking message on my thermostat: CALL FOR SERVICE. No kidding!!! I wonder why?? I can believe that message. I have a call in to my Acadia installer in order to come to my home on Wednesday to help fix this. I hope!

That is why I have a nice wood fire in my fireplace.

Oh, wow, at 1:15 am my heat jumped up one degrees at the thermostat due to my wood fire. Not the Acadia trying to chug up one degrees F in my home.

Well, one more wood log to raise the home temp to 64F. Isn?t that nice!?

There was one Acadia customer from Ohio that was so discussed with the Acadia,
That he wanted to initiate a Class Action Suit against Hallowell

If that person is reading that here on our CNET forum, I may join him on his Class Action Suit.


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I think you've got it now
by Steven Haninger / December 29, 2009 7:11 PM PST

While I hesitated to make accusations of anyone, I think the thread was full of bogus posts and posters. I have seen this in other help forums....and your word "testimonial" is right on target. A thread begun in full faith can get hijacked. You've been around a while and I know you are interested in photography. I actually spend a lot more time browsing other forums than I do SE and get to know some of the names and their styles. One of yours is to copy the title of the post you are responding to...verbatim or nearly so. This is something that seems almost unique to you. Did you notice how many posts in that thread mimic that style of yours? You can't miss it. And, if you read the posts of some who are active in the thread but with different names, you'll notice other similarities in writing style and vocabulary. You'll also see that some drop off but a new name appears. A little bit of examination of writing style suggests that sometimes it's the same person with a new identity. I could really think your thread was hijacked big time but I cannot know for certain. I don't have the skills or equipment to trace the origins of these posts and nor do I really care.

I wish I could link to locked thread in a help forum that would show you the similarities in what happened there versus your thread but there are many. One is the number of "members" with no other activity than in that thread and the other is the old game of trying to keep the balloon from touching the ground. Mostly when I've seen this in the help forums, it's a subtle promotion of some software or seller and the conversation becomes between a very few persons testimonials. It may start with someone asking if the product or vendor is as good as advertised. The fun begins. Folks who've never been here start coming out of the woodwork and give their rave reviews being as careful as possible to avoid the posts from actually looking like an ad. Eventually the MODs catch on and down it goes...but these people don't care. They got some exposure for free and that was the goal.

Maybe this was happening and maybe not. It is curious to see that, so far, no other posters have rejoined the revived thread in SE. Maybe that's just coincidental but maybe not.

Hey man...stay warm and keep the frost off of your camera lenses. You might miss some good pix this winter if you don't. Happy

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game of trying to keep the balloon from touching the ground
by James Denison / December 29, 2009 8:14 PM PST
'the old game of trying to keep the balloon from touching the ground'

Oh yeah, that's the one that started getting to me too. Just as the thread which eventually I could only read by using IE instead of my usual Firefox would disappear off the front page, back up it would pop, even though nobody had been in it maybe for a week or so. It was almost magical in it's ability to do that.

That's a favorite trick over in Yahoo stock forums (Finance section). Another is the "stupe" who asks the leading questions, often several stupes or newbies (hi, I'm new here, pant, pant, can someone help me?), and then a "guru" or supposed knowledgeable person pops up to answer them and from the goodness of his heart ready to lead the group to stock investment salvation, LOL. Once the hook is set, the game crumbles and the "stupes" and "guru" disappear and the suckers sit there asking each other "what happened? and where is...."
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I think you've got it now
by taboma / December 30, 2009 2:36 PM PST

Steven, How TRUE it is.
Mark F. warned me about the invasion of bogus posts also.

Steven, go to my newer post to you concerning propane and to your comments which was fun to read. :

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It was I who made some of those posts
by Steven Haninger / December 27, 2009 7:25 AM PST

including the kitchen oven reference and not any of the MODs. There was no malice intended which I also said in another. It was an attempt at humor...albeit maybe a weak one. I regret that you feel offended but will not try to make excuses for my remarks. I am one who felt that thread had become awkward and actually think it might have been causing some issues in SE that were most likely software related. When I tried to open that thread just to see what the interest was, I could not do it until several attempts were made. This was not your fault but the Cnet servers and software were just not handling it least on my end. If you look around at the other forums, you won't find anything closely related to HVAC technology which is what that system is about. You'll also find some very interesting patterns that seemed to be developing in that thread. One was the number of title lines with replies that mirrored the one being replied to or stayed the same for several posts. The language used and writing styles of some of the posters were so similar that one could get the idea their weren't as many actual different posters as their were names. I could think that some there were not legit but the same person with more than one username. If you looked at their profiles, you'd see that it was only this post in SE that they showed any interest and were not active anywhere else. There are people who visit only a couple of forums but certainly they contribute to other threads. Not with this one. This thread was it's own entity and actually, to me, looked like an attempt to go for some sort of record. It certainly would have been reasonable, IMO, to break it off and divide into sub topics that could be navigable with more ease. I really wonder what it might have been about SE that you thought was the best place to bring this topic in the first place. I don't see it as a good fit. It was a support thread for a very specific product. I was, in tongue-and-cheek fashion, serious about your making a suggestion for expanding forums to include HVAC or even other technology that involved home repair, etc. It's done for automobiles. If their is as much interest as this thread suggests in just one line of heat pump equipment, who knows what else could be of value to share among the membership.

Anyway, I'll readily admit to you that I'm one who registered a concern about this thread. It wasn't for reason of poor behavior but other of which was problems I was having with that forum that I thought might be somewhat related to that conversation. Please take this in the right way. You've been in that forum before and always been, IMO, gentlemanly. I try to be the same way and don't bombard the MODs with alerts about posters. I did think, and still do, that the thread in question was well past time to question and actually looking a bit suspicious in some respects. I would hope that I am wrong.

Cheer up and have a happy..

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It was I who made some of those posts
by taboma / December 27, 2009 8:28 AM PST

Thanks Steven.
Happy New Year to you also. :

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It was I who made some of those posts
by taboma / December 27, 2009 3:50 PM PST

Steven, I agree. Send me personal email. Others have.

And a Happy New Year to all.

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Acadia Heat Pump Problems by gulong16
by taboma / January 6, 2010 3:14 PM PST

Acadia Heat Pump Problems.
by gulong16 - 1/5/10 9:22 AM In reply to: way to expensive by timjy

Please Mods, Read this bogus post?

"I'm new here so please forgive me if I've posted more than once since I can't seem to navigate this site too well. I'm quite surprised by some of the positive responses that are on this post about the Acadia Heat Pump. Let me give you my experience. I am not a basher and have no other reason to post other than to let you know my situation.

I was very excited to get off oil and begged and pleaded with my wife that this would be great for us and save us a ton a money in August 2008 when oil kept going up and up. Our set up was only 3 years old at the time so it was a very difficult proposition to get her on board. In fact, we were on a TV news show that appeared in the MA area about people considering alternatives to oil . I should also mention that this was for our 1000sq.ft. guest house and home office and not our main living quarters.

The following experience has been an expensive and extensive nightmare. First, I didn't qualify for any of the rebates available at that time because it turned that Hallowell had not received the proper codes for their products and that everything was under review still. This is in complete contradiction to what I had been informed and even the installer was quite surprised by that. These rebates at the time were quite generous and I had figured them out in the total cost and was quite disappointed by Hallowell and my own gullibility.

In a cool September of 2008, I immediately started getting large electric bills around $400. I was told that this is normal since we were not using oil and that we're still saving money. I was told to be patient and that the true savings would show up soon enough. October's bill was worse at $550. I called again and questioned it but was told that everything is at it should be. In November, the electric bill was $700+ and December even higher.

This is when I started to get very upset. I had already lost out on the extensive rebates and now this was costing me more than when oil was at its peak. The installer came by and noted that the compressors weren't on and got Hallowell on the phone to troubleshoot the problems. At first, Hallowell insisted that everything was fine. Only one tech realized that the included wiring instructions were written wrong and that the electric heat strips were the only thing working. I noted that I had been questioning this since the beginning and that Hallowell had worked with the installer from the beginning in setting up the entire system.

Of course, the next month's bill was enormous and dwarfed the other bills but was told to wait for the following month. Duane Hallowell himself had come to the house to check everything out and insisted all was fine now. He apologized for the inconvenience and said that he would reimburse me for the excessive bills. I informed him about the missed rebates and he said that unfortunately they had some delays in the process but "You know how slow the government agencies are..." I suggested that maybe he should make sure that his company doesn't tell people about the rebates that they're not qualified for since that leads to confusion for the consumer.

Duane asked for all of my electric bills for the last 2 years and my last 2 years of oil bills and for the heat calculations taken for the building and then he did his own heat calculations and assessment. After much patience and then 3-4 repeated calls, he never did make good on the reimbursement and I was told that he was busy and then I'd never hear from them.

Well the electric bills continued to stay up there and soon found out that the compressors had failed and this was after a month of being online. I was also told that this had happened to someone else nearby. Hallowell sent their own technicians from Maine to replace the compressors and check out the entire system from scratch. At this point, they changed one Thermostat to one of their own specifications which they had redesigned since my system had been installed only months before. They only had one of them and therefore I was concerned about each one being different since they had already explained for an hour that the first ones were better and that there was no need to switch them. Then I was told the exact opposite and neither explanation made any sense as each time they contradicted what they had just took the time to explain. This was with the lead technicians of the installers present. Even they were shaking their heads in the confusion.

Additionally, I agreed to have the heat strips not come on during the 20-30 degree level which apparently it does automatically. In Boston, it's a silly way to do heat since we can have months of weather where it varies between those temps during the days and evenings. Duane, himself, suggested such an option. Even so, the monthly bills kept being in the $700-900 range.

In a previous conversation with Duane, he had said that the $90/month was an 'average' for the entire year when you considered that for some months you wouldn't be using the system at all (?). I thought that might be the same as when the car manufacture figures that some of the time you're driving downhill with the engine off. I explained that even given his calculations, I had gone through that budget in only 1 1/2 months of usage.

Well now it's January 2010 and I received another bill close to $800. The outside unit is completely frozen over and I'm told that the computer boards have failed. The installer has been fantastic and worked hand in hand with Hallowell to try and remedy this situation. I was informed that another woman had the exact same problems too. The installer found out from other installers that they're having the same difficulties and that Hallowell has not honored any of their warranties and that they've all lost money on their own costs and servicing of the units.

My installer is now offering to give me another Hybrid system instead and had given up on Hallowell and feels bad that his customers who trusted him were so disappointed. I have no idea if this other system is better or not since I seem to be one of the most easily misled consumers out there. I am not a representative of any other HVAC company and I'm only trying state my own experience.

If this were a car, that promised to save you money but then was declined the promised rebates, was miss wired by the manufacturer's own written instructions, then the engine failed, now the computer boards failed and was costing you thousands of extra money on gas then I think you might be perturbed and very disappointed in the car.

In summary, I was very enthusiastic and thought that we were making the best decision for our family. It was a tremendous expense especially as my wife is a teacher and I'm self employed. I thought that we're ahead of the curve and that this would be great. I was extremely patient and never got angry although I admit that, in the privacy of my own home, my language got colorful when I saw those electric bills.

One could easily blame it on the installer if it wasn't for the fact that Hallowell had been involved since day one on the installation and the owner himself came down to check everything out for himself. In fact, the installer is the only one who has stood by me this entire time. The product is defective and exorbitant to buy, install, maintain and in monthly utility bills. I'm sure that I'm not the only one to get a lemon. I don't think this is a one case scenario.

I am not a bogus poster and this is purely to warn others of this situation. The consumer should not have to worry about brand new equipment repeatedly failing and huge electric bills when the exact opposite was promised."

? gulong16 (or some other), your post was interesting and your comment on energy savings?
"I thought that might be the same as when the car manufacture figures that some of the time you're driving downhill with the engine off."
?Was hilarious! :

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I saw it.
by MarkFlax Forum moderator / January 6, 2010 6:52 PM PST

And with my lack of detailed knowledge of the subject and the ongoing discussions, I didn't read too much into it.

Why reproduce the full contents in other posts when you can just link to them?


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I saw it.
by taboma / January 8, 2010 9:13 AM PST
In reply to: I saw it.

Mark, I agree with you all the way. I was thinking earlier today why didn't I just link that post? You know better than I.

The original post for Hallowell Acadia Heat Pump will be very difficult for many to follow at all. Specially after so many links.
You and J.J. have already explained that.

You know when a poster is joking along with the rest of us.
No problem there at all.

What if a new member of CNET that wanted information on energy savings read that bogus compilation post concerning the Acadia and believed it?
That is my only concern here with the Mods not noticing.

I have to admit that the compilation was well written and completely bogus. Who is to know what is true!
Maybe we all have to be mechanical engineers! Not me! :

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I still see no evidence
by MarkFlax Forum moderator / January 8, 2010 8:02 PM PST
In reply to: I saw it.

that the post you are querying is bogus.

Some bogus posts will always slip through in any forum, but we do our best to limit the damage.


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still see no evidence
by taboma / January 9, 2010 11:33 AM PST

Mark, Do you have eyes in back of your head!? :

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If you want to keep an eye on one
by Steven Haninger / January 9, 2010 1:12 AM PST
In reply to: I saw it.

it might be playing out in Peripherals right now. I won't ID the thread but you'll see it's all new members and, at this time, ends with a very subtle recommendation of a supplier. Wink

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keep an eye on one
by taboma / January 9, 2010 10:15 AM PST

It is well over my head to figure out who sent that bogus compilation thread.
My original post was to learn of others that owned an Acadia and to see if others liked it and how was it working for them.
Any problems and how to solve them.

I have had countless problems for over a year. So have many others as you have seen for the last 300+ threads and have reported them here on Speakeasy.

If there was a Forum on energy issues here at CNET last Aug., 2008,
I would have posted there V/S Speakeasy.
So where are we to go here at CNET?

I agree with Jonah Jones that the post is hard to follow.

Chip Lucas, an engineer from Hallowell International, joined our Forum last year to help explain how the Acadia works and how to fix some problems that we all had. I sent Chip a link to my post and asked him for his help and to join us here on CNET.

Chip has helped out repeatedly to many here as an engineer only! Not as a sales person ever!!
Chip worked with my installer in order to read the settings and how to correct a problem such as a faulty temperature probe just last week. (My Acadia was a block of ice.)
A new temperature probe was shipped from Hallowell to my installer this Mon. My system is working fine right now.

Thanks, Steven?
I will pay attention to new posters and pat them down. :

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Here's one that I think is suspicious
by Steven Haninger / January 9, 2010 7:07 PM PST
In reply to: keep an eye on one

in the Peripherals forum.;forum-threads

Look at the date of origin of the thread. Look and see that it disappeared for a while but was resurrected by a first time poster. Look at how many total posts that person has at Cnet as of today (Sunday). Look at other poster activity in that thread. Do you see them anywhere else at Cnet? Look carefully and you will see a non-hyperlinked web site offering a solution/alternative to the site under scrutiny during the 1st half of last year. I can't be certain and won't make an accusation or send a mod alert but me thinks we may have attracted an opportunist here. I suspect other sharp moderators have eyebrows raised but don't yet have enough to go on yet but my guess is that it will be locked at some point.

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I will point out that I
by Roger NC / January 8, 2010 6:53 AM PST

have no way to positively identify anyone online.

So deciding a post is bogus and removing it is a bit more than apparently it seems to you.

I was struck by the extreme range of effectiveness by different posters. But as was pointed out several times, the installer apparently made as much difference as the unit. And since it apparently is a fairly new and/or radical modification of heat pump systems, I certainly had little to base a personal judgement of the likelihood of the reports being accurate.

So I find your apparent disdain for our efforts unpleasant. Such reaction from various sources to moderator efforts is not new, but just because criticisms or accusations reappear doesn't improve the taste.

As far as being asleep at the switch, please remember we are not all sitting at desks in a prairie farm at corporate headquarters with schedules to monitor. I'm sure all the moderators do their best to improve things.

Have a nice weekend.


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I will point out?
by taboma / January 9, 2010 12:42 PM PST

Roger NC, Welcome as a Speakeasy Mod.
I am not a newbie here and I never ever show disrespect to any Mod here at CNET.
The compilation link that I mentioned may have come from a new member of CNET that has commercial interests in mind in order to undermine the new Acadia technology Hallowell International have patented.
Hallowell headquarters are in Bangor, ME.

Off subject: Lots of great shellfish and seafood from ME.
Maine has more millionaires per Capita living there than any other state in the U.S.

The Halowell Acadia is so new that many HVAC companies do not have a clue on how it operates and/or how to install it yet. True!!

Thanks, Roger.


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Hi Kevin
by gulong16 / January 13, 2010 12:26 AM PST
In reply to: I will point out?

If you're in the Boston area, then let's settle the question of my veracity and please feel free to contact me. I'm not in the HVAC field. I bought the Acadia in August 2008. I'm not sure why that seems to be a problem for you to comprehend. I do not represent any HVAC company whatsoever. I'm not sure what your deal is but I can only tell you my personal real life experience. Other than that, I don't know what else to tell you. Email me and we'll chat, otherwise, please stop accusing me of something nefarious.

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by spare-ho / March 14, 2010 12:47 PM PDT
In reply to: Hi Kevin

i posted something awhile back on very similar issues with my unit. my hvac installer abandoned me and will no longer be servicing my acadia unit. despite a 5 year service contract. I am interested in pursuing a class action suit now, there is a quite a bit of people in the process of getting together to pursue hallowell. anyone else interested can contact me via this forum or on KABOODLE under hallowell acadia. where many people have been seeking help.

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by aleenahopkins / January 7, 2010 5:16 PM PST

im sorry for joining the topic.
I don't know anything about this forum so I'm here to join and converse.

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No need to apologise.
by MarkFlax Forum moderator / January 7, 2010 5:55 PM PST
In reply to: sorry

Hi aleenahopkins.

No need to apologise for joining a conversation, but this may not be the best forum to have a chat. This is the Forum Feedback forum, for resolving forum problems and matters.

However CNET does have a 'General Chat' forum called Speakeasy here;

Plenty of chatting there, but politics is banned. We've had a few shoot-outs in there in the past so we had to put a stop to political discussions. There's sawdust on the floor in there, and it's a bit 'rough and ready"! Devil


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Sorry?Go here to the threads
by taboma / January 9, 2010 1:29 PM PST
In reply to: sorry
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