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General discussion

Anti - Linux workers in this site

Oct 18, 2005 8:07AM PDT

Hi all ! I've been participaiting in this forum since only two days ago. After reading some of the replays and discusion topics posted by various participants, I have come to the conclusion that there are some people working against Linux Knowlegde share and support, infiltrated with a different objetives than the ones a mentioned.

If I don't missundertood it, the purpouse of this forum is to help people with a common interest in the linux arena, by shearing knowledge and experiences (maybe more but not least)

It is good to receive advice on the difficulties we will find in the task, but in a positive way, trying to anticipate problems and provide help and not trying to fool the "newbies" telling lies to the group.

Linux is getting more and more support in many countries, in the Public administrations, governamental servicies, schools, and private corporations, with projects involving thousands of users (Germany and Spain have some of the biggest deploiments with about 80.000 to 100.000 computers installed in each project)

Other impressions will be apreciated ( I might be wrong)

Best regards

Discussion is locked

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Pro Linux.
Oct 18, 2005 10:40AM PDT

I like my Suse 10.0 install. And have used Slackware since 0.13.

What some don't like in these forum are the fishing lessons. Some want fish which is rare here.

Bob

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Bob! Help?
Oct 18, 2005 10:50AM PDT

There's a difference between leading someone in the right direction with a few suggestions and helping them save time looking for a resolution without comments that they have NO clue what you are babbling about in your replies. Bob, speak for yourself! Just because you put yourself above many in these forums. I am willing to help others, with my SMALL amount of knowledge, to seek a resolution and they will learn and maybe return the favor one day!

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Just to be clear.
Oct 18, 2005 10:56AM PDT

You have fish?

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You got fish?
Oct 18, 2005 12:45PM PDT

Crawfish!

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(NT) (NT) Yum!
Oct 18, 2005 12:47PM PDT
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Quite right
Oct 19, 2005 7:26AM PDT

That is one of the things I am reffering to.

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I agree with you mierr
Oct 20, 2005 11:23PM PDT

This forum is generally elitist, but without the elites.

I can make my way around in GNU/Linux, but there was a time when i could not and thankfully there are other, better forums. Very often the windows experience leaves users so in the dark about how that mysterious tower is working that when the first make the switch, they have no idea how to ask a question and do not have enough knowledge to even seek simple answers on their own.

If you do not like the questions people ask (bob) either (a) do not reply and let the question die a silent death (b) do not reply and let somebody more generous try to help (c) reply and politely point the person to a resource that may be helpful, or (d) reply and politely tell the person how to ask a proper question.

Not everybody who wants to use GNU/Linux wants to go to school for it, work as an IT professional or lock themselves in a basement like a mal-adjusted teenager tweaking away at the expense of the other aspects of a good life. You know what? That is OK.

Don't get me wrong; i am a big advocate of the idea that users should both be willing to learn their new system and contribute to its development as best they can (be it art, code, or a little cash), but flaming noobs is not contributing to our cause, especially from a moderator.

Just remember what our mothers said:

If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

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No fish.
Oct 20, 2005 11:32PM PDT

Many take these forums as a place for "answers" or "fish." The discussion about the difference was gone over many times.

If you want fish, you may have to find a fish market. Here the moderators lean to helping people find their answer first.

This is not mean but a matter of survival for the members, forums and moderators.

Cheers,

Bob on Suse 10.0 Linux

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what good is it then?
Oct 23, 2005 9:49PM PDT

So what, i ask, is the purpose of the forum?

Pretty much everything about linux and its applications can be found in the documentation pages or related help sites. Following the "no fish" logic, the only thing to discuss in such a forum is related to totally new, unprecedented applications without such documentation. But these are discussions that developers have. This is not a developers forum, as far as i can tell, so what is it for if not for more experienced users to help less experienced ones?

Like i said, if you think that a user is looking for something that can easily be found on his own, there is no reason to insult said user while throwing back jargon that the original post generally clearly shows s/he cannot understand. If you want to point the user on the path to find the answer, do that. If you think it is just a fishing expidition, as you call it, just don't answer and let the thing die a silent death.

If a person is here, it is generally clear that person is aspiring to learn or they would not be trying linux. There is no reason to put them off because their questions are below your level. If you find things mundane, just don't say anything.

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Thanks for that.
Oct 23, 2005 9:55PM PDT

I always wonder about such issue.

I ask you consider that this is an all volunteer forum and that the needs are great. It seems quite fair to me that fish be a rare commodity and the direction be to help you find the answer.

If you feel you must have an answer (fish) then there is nothing stopping you from paying Redhat, Novell for it via their support lines.

This is not tech support so any thought you would get that here is misplaced. This is a place where we discuss the topics (please see the Forum FAQ and policies.)


If you don't want to learn something along the way to the answer to be more self reliant, what was your goal?

Bob

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What about the FAQ
Oct 23, 2005 10:32PM PDT

Did you have teachers in school? So did I. Nobody learns to read by themselves.

The FAQ and the Policy page say nothing about which issues are to be discussed here or what level of user to user support should be addressed here. In fact, they kind of seem to support what i am saying; I quote:

"CNET Networks is dedicated to developing and maintaining a friendly online community, where members of all ages and technical backgrounds feel relaxed and comfortable."

I suppose that what i have written here could technically be construed as flaming you, and for this potential misreading I apologize.

I sympathize with the idea that as an all-volunteer forum it is hard to deal with a large crush of users asking questions. This does not stop those of us on the forum from using the "silent drop" method when such users outnumber people willing to help. However, the number of people asking questions usually self-corrects to match the number of people providing answers on its own as potential inquisitors notice that not many people are getting answers. Besides, this forum appears to be in little danger of being crushed by inquisitive idiots.

There is still no reason to insult users with next to no knowledge. These are the people who could design the next Gnome desktop if we don't lead them to believe that open source is for a closed pool of people. Simply help them, point them in the right direction, or let the post die. The resulting environment will be much more positive and attract more users of all levels of expertise.

In my humble opinion

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Please point out that insult and report it.
Oct 23, 2005 10:51PM PDT

I'll remove the post or talk to the poster.

The discussion of fish or fishing lessons is over in the forum feedback area somewhere and explains in more depth if you want to know why this direction is taken by some mods.

If it's an insult to ask someone to look at the results of an example google or read a paragraph on a web link then that person does need to pay up for support. Another passage in the Forum policies forbids wholesale copies of other people's writings. The limit is agreed to be 2 sentances so we can't do much there. Some of the items that need discussion would take a book. I can't rewrite the answers from memory since that would be very time consuming and with the forbidden copy I have to offer a link and ask the poster to read it.

Some will take that as uncaring. I take it as following the rules and getting an answer out. If there is a google search involved, bonus points for sharing how the answer is found.

Cheers,

bob

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Here it is
Oct 23, 2005 11:59PM PDT

I copied the particular post that i had in mind at the end of this post. It is in response to a user who could not figure out how to get his WLAN working with the live CDs he had downloaded to try out linux. Despite the fact that the user appears to have done some research into how to install and use NDSIWrapper, he was unable to understand the posts and apparently was used to the windows world of point-and-click.

While this user clearly needed a little enlightening on the complexities of the issue, the first answer he got was that he should go write a driver, although this is clearly outside of his capabilities. This is not like telling a person to go f*** him- or herself (which i think is the threshold for reporting stuff), but the message is clear: You are not good enough for this forum. Go Away you n00b.

This is an insult and is not helping matters. It is not helping the linux world and not helping expand this forum. It is a clear case of an instance where no response would have been better than one. Other users, incidentally, went on to explain the problem of putting proprietary drivers on a live CD.

By the way, if this is not supposed to be a forum for technical help, why is there a message right above the text box on the submit page advising users to submit all pertinent system specs when asking for technical help?


The insult:

What many expect is...
Drivers for everything to exist. This is not true for Linux since you are part of the solution. i.e. if you want to write a driver and contribute it then everyone benefits.

For others the best thing to do is to research what cards are known to work with the distro they like and then install such a card.

Bob

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Ahh, that issue.
Oct 24, 2005 12:19AM PDT

This the brutal reality of Linux. As a software writer I have had to deal with such issues and watch as others flame on about the lack of drivers.

Linux is a community effort and if you want to push it forward for a particular piece of hardware you get out and push.

Either by diving in and writing or supporting your authors by supplying them with hardware. I have sent network cards out to authors. Have you done this?

-> If you want a thank you very much, please post in some USENET newsgroup.

My post is misread by you. Please read it again.

-> In closing, the best road for users that can't find drivers, write drivers or contribute to the effort is to replace the non-supported hardware with something that works. I wonder if you feel that is unkind in some way?

Bob

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Re: Ahh, that issue.
Oct 24, 2005 8:18AM PDT

Hello all !
Bob, I think this is getting too personal and that was not my intention when I oppened this topic. I think that what we are saying here is not that complicated; there are many windows "users" interested in linux just because they heard it's saffer for the internet use, more stable and free, so they want to try being a linux "user", and nothing more, and this is perfectly rigth, in fact this is the best way to move the hardware industry, more users, more proffit, more work for the linux developers, mantainers, etc.

Why not doing what bulldogzerofive said, you can politely aswer the question or let it die.

There will be less prepare users willing to spend their time as they make progress.

Again, what is the aim of the forum ?, just the aim, not what every one thinks is the way to go.

Best regards

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For mierr (due to depth)
Oct 24, 2005 8:52AM PDT

mierr,

You set the direction. And by you I mean the members. This is your chance to join in and see if you can help others out.

I did walk away from the Linux forum for awhile only to watch as few posts receieved any answers and we saw a few "is anyone out there posts."

I will continue to answer with responses that may include "replace the modem (or other part)" as well as the far fetched "help write a driver" because this is what it may take.

Jump in. This are great forums without OS bashing or flaming.

Bob