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General discussion

Another question for Ed O'D

Nov 21, 2003 11:38AM PST

With your personal experience what are your thoughts on the Kennedy assassination and Oswald?

Lone gunman or more than one shooter?

Discussion is locked

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Re:Another question for Ed O'D
Nov 21, 2003 11:15PM PST

Hi Rick,

I really haven't concerned myself with the question as it appeared that timing could have allowed for either.

If one thinks it was a conspiracy then it lends itself to multiple shooters but if one believes it was the actions of a loner then a shingle shooter, confusion and echos is the logical answer.

I can tell you that careful selection of a hide will cause excited persons in the vicinity of the target to start looking in the wrong direction.

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What hit me, Edward...
Nov 21, 2003 11:34PM PST

Edward, what hit me about the theory of a second shooter was if there were one, wouldn't it be more logical for him to have a semi-auto weapon, like say an M-1? Nice one for such a purpose, ask any Marine.
After all, working a bolt takes time, and semi-auto rifles are more than adequate for that range, ask any deer hunter if there is not a Marine handy (grin).
The goal was to take out the target. Also, I think that if it were a conspiracy, they (or the organization behind them, if any) would have found a way to come up with better weapons than cheap, used, obsolete ones.

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Re:What hit me, Edward...
Nov 22, 2003 12:12AM PST

J,

Choice of weapon can be very dependant on what you are doing and what you eventually may desire "evidence" to point to or give the impression of pointing to. If I wanted someone to think it was a "Communist Plot" I wouldn't use a Garand, nor would I use a Remington or Winchester sporter, I would use something common to Communist countries that the shooter most likely would be familiar with for its commonality. The Italian Carcano used and abandoned by Oswald was quite popular and commonplace all over both Europe and for that matter CUBA, Mexico and South America and their bolt action was remarkably smooth and FAST. Had Oswald got away think that the Cuban connection to the type of firearm might have enjoyed some play considering our (and JFK's) relations with Cuba at the time?

"Cheap, used, obsolete" is not synonymous with inadequate. K98 Mausers and M91/30 Mosin Nagants are "Cheap, used," and "obsolete" but I have a couple that will shoot less than MOA groups all day long. I have used both in NRA matches and working the bolt has never been problematic as far as accurate shooting. Recoil recovery and target aquisition are what takes time between aimed shots. I also have a MAS 49 that shoots tight groups but develops a sticky action after about 4 shots--still shootable but "slows down" working the bolt.

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The problem, Edward...
Nov 22, 2003 4:35PM PST

Edward, the problem is that the target was a specific one, and he would be in the kill zone for a limited number of seconds. I wouldn't think that that would be the optimum time for such a mail order weapon. If that attempt had been unsuccessful, the target would have been alerted to his status as a target currently "in play" and in the future it would have been quite doubtful that he would have been presented in so vulnerable a way. Notice that he ordered just that one? It's unusual that if that paricular one was in mind originally, that there was just that one order. A magazine mail order of that time sometimes yielded hit or miss (no pun intended) quality. I found that to be the case in something else you happen to have mentioned, the Mosin Nagant. I ended up with 2 of later war production and of quite inadequate workmanship in many ways. But, they serve the purpose of examples of that weapon for collection example purposes.
The bottom line objective was to take out the target, not to send a message. Taking a chance on the possibility of taking out the target by using a less than first-line weapon whose message "link" would be convoluted, to say the least, would seem to denote non-professional thinking.

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Re:The problem, Edward...
Nov 23, 2003 2:59AM PST

J,

That is not a problem unless one choses to make it so.

Prior to 1968 such arms were readily available everywhere that sold firearms (including Sears, JC Penneys, etc.) and mail order was not necessary not desirable. One could select the specific firearm one wanted.

As I already noted, I never spent much time dewlling on it but if Oswald did in fact use mail order then, even with the mail order arms, most reputable advertisers classified what they offered by NRA standards and one only had to look for very good or better to be assured of a decent firearm. Then a little bit of work to smooth things up was normally all that was required. There is also a possibility that he had already picked up replacement firing pin, extractor and springs (most likely cause of problems) or even a complete bolt assembly.

MOST of the cheapest ones were naturally only NRA Good or Fair and were to be avoided except as decorations. Undoubtedly Oswald was well aware of this. I suspect that if you found yourself stuck with some less than functional ones you were paying more attention to price as opposed to quality.

Having fired the Carcano I personally wouldn't have hesitated in chosing one depending of course on what other specifics I noted were of any concern.

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Somehow, Edward...
Nov 23, 2003 3:37AM PST

Somehow, Edward, I can't see Oswald replacing a bolt assembly, although you never know, he might have been willing to play headspace roulette.
BTW, many of the old rifles I obtained I never intended to fire, they were just examples for illustration. Sometimes handy when you just saw Dr. Zivago on TV with some friends who came over (grin). The 577-.450 Martini-Henry I just got interested in, hense I ended up with a dozen, and I've never fired one. You know how it goes, you've got the rifles, and that leads to the various bayonets. Then slings and other accessories. One day you realize that the pile of coin expended resulting from that one particular rifle that caught your eye is getting sizable (grin).

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Actually J...
Nov 23, 2003 7:12AM PST

MOST of the older miliraty bolt actions would swap bolt assemblies without having to even consider headspace as they were all within the relative allowances for wear.

Although I normally try to err on the side of caution I have swapped many a bolt on older arms but on checking have yet to find one that was out of tolerance except for one lone MAS 49 and it was so sloppy NOTHING was in tolerance (but it was still being fired when I "obtained" it).

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Re:What hit me, Edward...
Nov 22, 2003 1:18AM PST

The Italian rifle Oswald had was selling by mail order to anyone for $12.95 or selected one for $19.95.
Foriegn rifles were being sold in mass very cheap at that time to anyone. In fact I bought a Japanese rifle for $9.95, sold it later for $15 as I thought it was a piece of junk only now realizing it would be a good collector's item. Prior to the Dallas shooting, I had purchased a US surplus .30-06 Model 1903-A3 bolt action rifle from the Springfield Armory for $19.95 through the NRA. The Model 1903 was used in WWII. The one I received was new, never used. A great sport/hunting rifle. I later bought a US Armory surplus .30 Cal semi-auto Carbine through the NRA for $34. The Carbine bullet is small in length, looks sort of like the size of a .44 Mag pistol cartridge.

I have shot the semi-auto M1 Garand (.30-06) at the range when I was on a shooting team. It is accurate, especially at closer range. The Kennedy vehicle was 88 yards from Oswald's rifle shots. Oswald was considered a pretty good shooter in the Marines. An ABC TV program the other night showed his supposedly Marine range score card, him getting a score of 48 out of 50 on one and 49 out of 50 on another at 200 yards.

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Err...slight correction on the 1903 rifle...
Nov 22, 2003 2:41AM PST

Hit wrong key. The .30-06 model 1903 bolt action rifle was used in WWI. It was slightly improved and labled as the 1903-A3. A few were used in WWII at the beginning of the war with the M1 Garand .30-06 semi-auto being the primary rife of US soldiers during WWII.

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One day, John...
Nov 22, 2003 5:05PM PST

John, I still have a copy of that magazine issue from which he ordered, one day I must separate it out and put it in my case where I keep my interesting items.
Along time ago, I got a 1903 Springfield still in the cosmoline, but from a gun shop. That cosmoline took quite a time to remove after all those years, but it was well worth the effort, the results were great, not only in accuracy but also in appearance. I lucked up, the stock was of tiger-stripe grain. An unusual quality blank, but some factory worker put it on the lathe, it hit the common production line, and all those years later I lucked up and got quite pleased and surprised when I finally got it cleaned.
I never picked up an M-1 carbine, I wanted to find one made by Rock-ola, but never found a good one in my (back then) price range.