Speakeasy forum

General discussion


by Bob / December 14, 2004 4:26 PM PST

With the rapid nomination of Mr. Kerik to the Homeland Security post we can add another bad mark to Bush's long and continuing list of goofs. It's really hard to call them goofs as that seems to put them in the categoty of oops or uh oh excuse me items and they are far too serious to be taken so lightly. Before you jump too soon on the Defend-The-Bush-Bandwagon let me refer you to some families who have lost loved ones in Iraq or some Americans that are doing without necessities due to the money spent in Bush's private war. Bush quickly nominated Kerik to the cabinet-level position without even a cursary background check of him. This was done primarily on the reccomendation of Rudy Giuliani. What does that say for Giuliani's credibility? You fanatical name-calling partisans like to disparage anybody that speaks ill of Bush's failed policies and economy-wrecking spending without any thought of the consequences that we will ALL suffer from in the future. I am deeply concearned about the profound effect that his spending will have on the future of America. Did you know that we are borrowing money from Japan and China? But don't worry. We can go on forever because if we continue to overspend we can just go get some more money. Nothing bad could ever happen to us. Ask the Russians about that kind of thinking. There's no doubt it, Bush's eight years will definately leave their mark on our society. This kind of haphazzard decision making by Bush is taking us to the brink of disaster I'm afraid and we will ALL pay the price for it. I'll sit back now and read the posts from the regulars who post without any thinking involved.

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yes, it was a disastrous nomination
by jim c / December 14, 2004 11:05 PM PST

I hope the president chastised his staff for letting this one slip through. From what I read in another posting in this forum, it was well known in NY that Kerik had problems. The president's staff, and certainly Guliani, should have known about them. Unfortunately when an administration asks someone if they will accept a nomination, the potential nominee's aren't always candid with them concerning possible problem areas. I believe Clinton had several nominees that eventually bowed out for similar issues also. But I wouldn't be too hasty in putting the blame on the president. It's his staff who failed him.

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Here's part of the problem, Jim: too many yes-men
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / December 15, 2004 3:05 AM PST
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by jim c / December 15, 2004 3:32 AM PST

The president's staff will make or break him. If he appoints advisors for political payback rather than on qualifications, he is setting himself up for a fall.

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US debt and trade deficits did not begin with Bush.
by Kiddpeat / December 14, 2004 11:15 PM PST

What was the trade deficit under Clinton? As to the economic consequences of either type of debt, that would take a much longer discussion.

The USSR did not collapse due to deficits. It collapsed because its vassel states struck out for independence, and its economy wasn't producing enough goods and services to support the military effort needed to keep them in line.

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Tragic irony
by keyhoti2 / December 15, 2004 4:01 AM PST

It's tragically ironic that you mentioned the USSR vassal states' drives for independence which led to the collapse of the Soviet Union, because many effective "vassal" states of the US are looking elsewhere than the US dollar for security, for instance, and seeking independence that way.

For sure, for the most part, it hasn't been necessary for the US to use the military to keep others in line, but of late, e.g. Bush's blunt warning to anyone not supporting him in "the war on terror" (which seems to cover everything), it has become plain that dissidents run the risk of military intervention.

In any case military spending in the US is mind-boggling and a huge drain on the economy, so there is a direct parallel with what you said about the USSR.

And as a matter of disturbing interest for you and your fellow Americans, did you know that the US has ceased being a net exporter of food?

Add that to so many other factors in the trade deficit and things do look decidedly dicey ... and who ever said that all this started with George Bush?

How does it help to reduce something serious to the trivia of who may or may not have started it, who is more to blame and so on?

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I'm sure you would love to see a collapse in the US, but
by Kiddpeat / December 15, 2004 4:37 AM PST
In reply to: Tragic irony

I think you'll be disappointed. US military spending is nowhere near the percentage of GNP, which is what counts, as was seen in the USSR.

Last time I checked, the only countries the US occupies are Iraq and, argueably, Afghanistan although the UN is supposed to have a presence in the latter. There are no other 'vassel' states for the US.

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Well ...
by keyhoti2 / December 15, 2004 7:42 AM PST

in the first place I would NOT love to see a collapse in the USA ... I was born during WW2 and so after the Great Depression, but my parents and all other older people then had lived thro' it and I am very aware of how terrible things were.

Back then the USA was nowhere near as global in it's influence as it is now, but when Wall Street crashed, so did the markets in Britain, the rest of Europe, Australia and so on.

How can you possibly imagine that I want a repeat of that and, consider this, why do you suppose that foreign banks and governments keep propping up your bubble economy? Well it's much the same as when a major business is in strife; when banks and even governments will keep extending credit, so as to hopefully forestall closure and a loss to the economy ... but only up to a point.

Moving on: do you not know that your administrations have, since WW2, maintained a military presence in Germany, Britain, Australia, S.Korea, Italy, Spain, Turkey and many other places around the world?

Do you not know that many people in all these countries have always resented this foreign presence, but that maybe more take the pragmatic attitude that "Americans are big-spenders" and so, on the more iffy side of things, why would brothel owners in Japan and the Phillipines want to see "the Yanks leave"?

But vassaldom is not all about your successive presidents perpetuating US military might around the world, even if that does help local economies go round.

Have you ever lived anywhere other than the US?

If not then you can have no idea what economic vassals we all are in the rest of the world.

But I suppose you do know that Americans consume more than the rest of the world put together, despite having only a fraction of population numbers.

Work out the logic: why would anyone anywhere else actually want the US to go down the tube?

Well there are some who do wish that, but none that I know of who have thought things thro'.

I'm sure that managements at Honda, Toyota, BMW and other major corporations have crunched the numbers and have concluded that the US is worth pacifying, so as to keep up sales.

Sorry Kidd, but you are living in a fantasy world.

Come visit Australia, go to China, go to Europe ... go anywhere and see Kentucky Chicken, Big Macs, Coke, American sit-coms and nearly everything American everywhere ... then come back and tell me that other peoples are not vassals, or maybe suckers (yes, including me, after all Roy Rogers was one of my childhood heroes ... but I've grown up a tad since then).

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Let's just take our military presence in Germany ...
by Evie / December 15, 2004 7:48 AM PST
In reply to: Well ...

... are you aware from behind your haze of hatred that when the US proposed re-alignment of troops to reduce those in Germany they went a bit ballistic? I'm talking the most Bush hate-filled politicians there that are dependent on the economic benefit they enure from our presence.

The way to your prosperity will never be to diminish ours. Poor people (not saying Australia is poor BTW) don't become rich by impoverishing those more well off than them.

Two things lead to richer societies on the whole, freedom and capitalism. That the poor in this country live better than the rich in so many others is what results in our greater consumption.

Re: your other post, what vassal states of the US are you talking about?

GO YUSCHENKO!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Haze of hatred?
by keyhoti2 / December 15, 2004 4:00 PM PST

Good one Evie!

You appear not to have noticed that I already made your point about the rest of the world being dependent on US consumerism ... which I cannot possibly hate, because I am just as hooked as anyone else.

I do, however, believe that all this cannot last.

I don't know the answer to that, but I am sure that it can't be accusing anyone who has doubts of "hatred".

Every time that I have tried to discuss an important issue in SE ("speakeasy") you, mark5019 and sundry others have been abusive.

Is that the best y'all can do?

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Salesmanship does not make vassals. It makes
by Kiddpeat / December 15, 2004 9:27 AM PST
In reply to: Well ...

customers. If there's a KFC in Australia, it's because Australians want it there. It's not because the US govt cares one way or the other.

At one time, there was a reason for American troops in Germany, Britain, Australia, S.Korea, Italy, Spain, Turkey, etc. In most of those cases, Americans would prefer to bring the troops home. Why should we pay to defend Germany or Australia? In S. Korea's case, we would rather pay the bill in money than in blood. We don't want to have to fight the North Koreans again to expel them from S. Korea. I think the troops are coming out of Europe just as they came out of the Phillipines. We're not going to keep defending people who simply want to take advantage of our generosity. I can't think of any reason why we need to be in Australia. If we're there, I think we should get out and save the money. People who want our presence, and then thumb their noses at us are not vassels.

I see you've dropped currency fluctuations. Tell us why Washington wants the dollar to decline.

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Oh dear!
by keyhoti2 / December 15, 2004 4:23 PM PST

One reason that the US has bases in Australia is that some comprize a link in the US defence network ... also the network supporting NASA.

On the defence side of things:

There is a base called "Pine Gap" which is off-limits to all Australians (except some of our politicians I suppose), but which we know is to do with US atomic weapon capability.

We once had an elected government, back in the 1970s, which made noises about getting rid of US bases.

Guess what happened.

A New Zealand government decided to ban US, nuclear-powered warships from entering New Zealand ports ... and so economic sanctions were imposed on New Zealand.

OK so New Zealand got off lighter than Chile - surely you know that the CIA engineered the overthrow of Allende and helped Pinochet gain power - but my point is that the US military presence around the world has NOTHING to do with the freedom of other nations ... quite the contrary.

As for why the Federal Reserve (Washington is way too inaccurate) wants the dollar to decline?

Well there are many reasons, such as making imports dearer and deflating the US economy to some extent, but in a controlled manner, according to monetarist (not fiscal) principles.

Perhaps, since you know so much about economics, you would like to debate the relative merits of monetary and fiscal policies.

I personally only know a little, but I fancy that I could hold my own with you.

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Whats the big deal?
by Dragon / December 14, 2004 11:29 PM PST
With the rapid nomination of Mr. Kerik to...

I imagine he depends on other people to do their jobs (Senate, for one) checking the guy out.

Did you know that we are borrowing money from Japan and China?

We sell bonds, treasury bills, and so forth, to anybody who wants to buy them.
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All I can say is, you.......
by Glenda / December 14, 2004 11:31 PM PST

INSULT all SE members with this:
"I'll sit back now and read the posts from the regulars who post without any thinking involved."

And then you think no one will get testy?

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Ahhhh, but Glenda ....
by MarciaB / December 14, 2004 11:42 PM PST

.... that's the whole idea Grin

But, of course, you already knew that.

I have an idea - let's NOT get testy about it. Let's pretend the bait was never placed there. Better yet! Let's just say (quite truthfully) that many of us are full and do not need to take a bite at all.


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oh, all right!!!......
by Glenda / December 14, 2004 11:56 PM PST
In reply to: Ahhhh, but Glenda ....


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(NT) (NT) The bait stinks anyway Glenda :)
by SteveGargini / December 15, 2004 8:18 AM PST
In reply to: oh, all right!!!......
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(NT) (NT) You are 1 wise lady Marcia
by Donna Hager / December 15, 2004 1:16 AM PST
In reply to: Ahhhh, but Glenda ....
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Hi, Donna! and Happy Holidays to you
by MarciaB / December 15, 2004 1:50 AM PST

We don't see you here in SE nearly often enough Happy

"Wise?" I've been called alot of things - I think I like that one Grin

Have a wonderful Holiday Season, and may the New year bring you joy, peace, love and prosperity (that should about cover it - well, we could add "wisdom" to the list - LOL Grin )



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thanks Marcia,
by Donna Hager / December 15, 2004 7:06 AM PST

I appreciate the wishes for the holiday.

I'm not a thick skinned person which is why I have never been able to engage in too many conversations on this forum. There are some nice people here that I talk to off the forum and bless their hearts that they can deal with the anger & crudeness that I see alot of here, but its just not something for me. Disagreeing with someone's opinion is all well and good because everyone naturally doesn't have the same thoughts on issues, but I don't like the ongoing insults & bickering that seems to be endless at times. So I try to mind my own business and wish my friends well and stick my nose in when it comes to reading posts like yours cause your way of thinking is sensible. And I just wanted you to know that. Happy

Happy holidays to you too!

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It's too bad we don't have a killfile
by EdH / December 14, 2004 11:45 PM PST

Like in Newsreaders, so obnoxious postes could be ignored.

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(NT) (NT) Agreed an ignore button would be nice:)
by Glenda / December 15, 2004 12:00 AM PST
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How about a rating button allah eBay which could be used
by Kiddpeat / December 15, 2004 4:42 AM PST

without elevating the thread back to the top? The equivalent of a bronx cheer.

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by C1ay / December 14, 2004 11:47 PM PST
I'll sit back now and read the posts from the regulars who post without any thinking involved.

That's exactly what I was thinking of your post by the time I got to the end of it.

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As expected
by keyhoti2 / December 15, 2004 2:23 AM PST

Hi Bobby,

You're brave, I thought, to say the kind of things you said, such as pointing out the enormous debt that the US has accumulated.

The reaction you got was as expected.

I wonder if the thought-police here know, or want to know that the US dollar is sliding, that other countries are looking at the Euro as a safer haven, that some OPEC countries might well switch to pricing oil via the Euro and that many other events are rapidly happening which could topple the US economy?

If being a "good American" means ignoring looming trouble, then give me a "bad American" (like yourself?) any day.

It hasn't happened to me yet here, but I await someone telling me to keep out of US affairs - just to top off having told me just about everything else - so I'll pre-empt it by pointing out that when (not so much if) the US runs into trouble, the rest of the world will suffer ... so it is my business what a US president/administration does.

By contrast: though Australia is very large geographically, we have a smallish population/economy and so nothing much that happens here can effect the rest of the world very much.

Just to pre-empt someone who might feel inclined to tell Australians to populate this land, I will mention that it is the driest continent on this planet, except for Antarctica.

Whatever: I don't suppose I have covered my back for daring to agree with you Bobby.

Good luck, Gerry

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I'll help you out my good man I agree with you, totally.
by xerpor / December 15, 2004 3:53 AM PST
In reply to: As expected

Bobby, and you, couldn't be more right about what's happening to our great US of A.



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ROTFLMHO You are TOO much! I really do suggest a course
by Kiddpeat / December 15, 2004 4:47 AM PST
In reply to: As expected

in economics.

Did it ever occur to you that Washington might WANT the dollar to fall? That our trading partners like Europe, Japan & China do NOT want it to fall?

I'll let you figure out why that might be the case. You surely don't need an American to explain it to you. Wink

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I always thought
by TONI H / December 15, 2004 5:32 AM PST

that the economical index raising or falling could be told by whether the interest rates go up or come down. The news over the last couple of days has indicated that the interest rates set by the Feds have gone up again.....the third increase this year. Doesn't that indicate that the economy is getting better?


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(NT) (NT) Gas was $1.59 here in Amarillo, yesterday :)
by Dragon / December 15, 2004 6:58 AM PST
In reply to: I always thought
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I grieve for you Dragon
by keyhoti2 / December 15, 2004 6:15 PM PST

There was me thinking I had it hard paying $AUD 1.10 a litre for what you call gas, but what I know as "petrol".

Doing a rough conversion into US dollars and gallons, this means that I am paying around $12 a gallon.

You sure do have it tough.

No wonder that you support the war in Iraq ... after all: what would you do if gas prices went even higher?

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Seeing as we've seen gas prices ...
by Evie / December 15, 2004 10:05 PM PST

... soar since the Iraq war, that kinda shoots a giant hole in that conspiracy theory.

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