An open letter to AV snobs...

Another excellent post. Sorry, I'm not trying to nose in here and play Dr. Phil, but sirroundsound is also one of the good guys.

Sometimes when we have a discussion we get overly sensitive and maybe put too much into a comment that wasn't meant to be a slam. Just an unfortunate choice of words. Or have we gotten too direct in our criticism using some cutting terms that are a little over the top and not at all necessary? Might be good to step back and hit the preview button and read our own post before we click on submit.

We have one guy who comes on here and calls us idiots, old men, jerks and other classy terms. He is beyond what we are talking about here.

Take Care Everyone,

RR6

YES THERE IS!!!! That's why this fourm is here, this is the C-NET Tech fourms,,,, NOT THE AVS fourm.
I'm not here to flame anyone, I been learning about sound and video since I was in the 6th grade, a very, very long time ago. I'm here to help others as they cut thier way thru the "High Tech" jungle.
EVERYTHING you do costs you something, count the cost.

I work at a FM radio station, but we do have some knowledgeable people who work in the retail field who share with us, THANK YOU FOR YOUR INPUT. John

True! But you can go way over board also. There is a point where you can spend 3~6 times more for gear and only make a small improvement in sound quality. Can you realy hear the difference between a realy good $1000 amp and a $3000 amp????? But you can hear the difference between a $200 speaker and a $800 speaker.
When I was young( a long, long time ago) I could hear above 20Khz, dog whistles I could hear. Even back then the difference in amps was hard to detect once the distortion was below 1%. But difference in speakers is very easy the hear.

When I got my first JBL 15" woffer( just the speaker) and paid $120 1968 dollars for it. Most people said are you nuts!!! You could have gotten a whole HiFi Stereo for that amount( to day we call them HTIB)!!!! Well over time I got the second woffer, built cabnets for them, then added JBL Horns and drivers,
Then bigger cabnets, added JBL twetters. They now reside in home made Klisph corner horns I made in '82.
As for the friends that said I was nuts,,, they just marvel at the sound. The current price of Klisph corner hornsis $2800 ea. All total I spent about $1000 over the years bulding them.
Guess I'm on a beer budget like Stew. John

It's all relative to the equipment.
If I was to take an average pair of 1500.00 speakers, and try to decern a difference between a 1000.00 amp and a 3000.00 amp, I may or may not notice, really would depend on the speakers, and how hungry they were. If I took those 2 amps, and played with a pair of speakers like the older Mirage M5si's (around 3,000pr) then yes I bet I would hear a difference. Have to remember, the people looking for the best want to squeeze out all the sound and picture on the disc, and be able to play it back and see and hear everything they paid for.

Speaker quality is definitely part of the equation, but I think there's also something to be said for critical listening skills. Shopping for my gear took me back to elementary school music class ("can anyone tell me what instrument this is?").

When I first started listening to speakers, everything in the same price range sounded more or less the same. With practiced listening (lots of A-B compares and covering a fair amount of music I liked to find my favorite audition tracks) I found I could hear certain differences, and consistently so. The more I've improved my gear, the tougher it has gotten, which I suppose is a good thing.

Anyway, I can't overrate listening skills, because what once required a strained effort for me to hear is now more apparent.

Cheers!
Speleo.

...***Can you realy hear the difference between a realy good $1000 amp and a $3000 amp?????***

I really hate to burst your bubble, but the answer is unequivocally "yes." Believe me, go into any high end shop (Sound By Singer here in NYC for example) and listen to the same setup with a $1k amp and then a $10k amp. Trust me, let your ears answer any questions from there on out.

***But you can hear the difference between a $200 speaker and a $800 speaker.***

Again, hate to burst bubbles, but I don't think there's a speaker system under $1000 that doesn't sound like total garbage. You only begin to get quality sound for $1000. The really sweet spot in speaker design where you're really hearing quality is around $4 - 7k.

Are they solid performers? I've got a pair of MAGNAPLANARS sitting storage. Anyone have something nice to say about these speakers???

..Maggies are without a doubt, the sweetest, best value per dollar in high end audio. Their 3.6 is a positive steal for what they do. Full range bass down to about 30hz, their magical 5' ribbon tweeter and that immediate, "you are there" midrange panel.

For a no holds barred assault on the ultra high end, their 20.1 system is just stunning.

...but I just looked them up. Seems Stereophile has some nice things to say, too. For anyone else wondering just what the heck "magneplanars" are, here's a review on the MG3.6's:
http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/303/

They look nice and from the reviews seem like a great buy, although it also seems like what you'd save on price/performance over traditional cone speakers you'd need to sink into amplification.

Still, a very interesting option. I'd be curious to hear more about why you selected these speakers, what you've used to drive them & any other comments you think would be useful to someone shopping for speakers.

Cheers!
Speleo.

This is the point where debates can get started, Maggies are wonderful speakers, with the right amplification and the right room. One of the biggest issues with various higher end speakers, they can and do sound different from one another. So many ways to make a speaker, ribbons, planar, electrostatic, 2 way, 3 way, different cross over designs and cabinet designs all can produce sound. It becomes what your ear hears and likes that will ultimatly make your choice on what to buy. People have argued forever, one side say the Wilson grand slams, the others say JM labs grand uptopia are the best speakers of all time. There are people that hate the sound of Planars (Maggies)and want their music to hit them, not envelope them.
The Maggies are worth a listen, as are many other brands and styles.
Speakers are an investment in your sound system, unlike A/V gear which changes on a regular basis, speakers will last a long long time, listen carefully, and invest wisely.

What is you oppinion about Theater Research Products? A friend gave me A tr-504 model from them and I still haven't use it yet. Do they make good products?

Thanks
Tony

First let me say this. If you connect this "system" and it works, and YOU enjoy the sound of it, then it's fine, and good for you, your friend gave you a system.

Before anyone else out there goes off shopping, use your noodles...
A quick Google and this is what I have seen.
The company and system numbers you gave, show a large box with a display, and 5 small sat speakers. This box allows for a couple of things to be connected (audio only) and AM/FM built in. A remote is also supplied.

The company web site has many fancy logos on the bottom of the page, none that I recognise, and none from any "real" surround type companies like DTS, dolby or others that are well known. (red flag#1).
When I go to a company web site for higher end gear and see "my basket" for on line shopping... (red flag#2)
Most of the equipment and speakers they sell have pretty high price tags. I clicked on the products to get more info and only got the very minimal specifications, not really enough information to tell me about speaker build quality, heck even overall dimensions and driver sizes were missing from the info. (red flag#3).
The model you gave is listed at over $4,000.00 retail, yet on further google searches, I found it on E-bay with a buy it now price of 279.00 with links to the company web site. (really big red flag#4)

I wouldn't be shocked to find out that the speakers and systems on this companies web site are actually the same ones sold out of the white vans in mall parking lots. I could be wrong, but I have been in this business for a long long time, and I find it very suspect that a company selling equipment suposedly worth $1000.'s is actually selling on line with almost no real product info. Thus leading me to believe something is fishy.
Sorry to poo poo on your system, and I really am not saying it sucks, just that if it really was 4,000.00 someone may have been taken.

In the October issuse on Audio Mag. they have an annual product listing. If you look the speaker pages many, many pages of speaker brands, hunderds of them.
But there are only about 30~40 compaines that actually make the raw speakers. Thus the same raw speakers are used in many different brands of speakers. John

Last week I went to a friends house He had a small sound room with 2 old, old huge Electro, Static speakers( I think thats what they were) 2 huge Macintosch tube amps and a Grado turntable the speaker wire looked like wire from a power generator. well he put on a Nate King Kole record and I started to cry Old Mr. Cole was in the room The sound was so good that I could almost see him ha. ha. Also Mr. doctor you are 1 of the few folks in this chat room that I admire your are a super pro and I love to read your posts by

If the audio or audio/video experience sends shivers up your neck, or causes some form of emmotion, thats when you know you are in a room with a great set up.
Having worked with high end gear for a long time, it takes something really special to do that for me. It has happened a number of times, as I have moved up the scale of equipment. Just when you think it can't get any better, you experience another level you didn't know existed.
"One" of the very nice systems I have had a chance to play with was MBL, want to see some funky speakers check this site out.
http://www.mbl-germany.de/

If you do go to the MBL web site, look around, there is a price list, we were discussing 1500.00 DVD players, their cd player is 21000. and it's just a transport, no D/A converter.

...The "Radialstrahler mbl 101 E"

Several years ago here in NYC at the Hilton. I can honestly say that in over 30 years of involvement in high end audio and having heard some of the world's greatest speakers (Infinity IRS, Martin Logan Statements, Wilson Alexandria, etc) these were unequivocally in the very top echelon of speakers i have ever heard at any price. Just magnificent!

"Just when you think it can't get any better, you experience another level you didn't know existed."

Yeah, that's why I quit auditioning more expensive stuff! Sometimes ignorance is bliss. Or at least it's cheaper.

Cheers!
Speleo.

...Thanks Stewart.

I love your posts, too.

I think we should all take up a fund raising effort and buy you a screen 150" wide.

I'm afraid that while you'd love it for a bit, you'd eventually say it was "a bit too small."

lol

Football screen sounds so cool, But I was thinking of buying a movie theater and just move in It would probabbly be cheaper in the long run Then I can ask all cnet folks to come over and mabey even charge money anyway 4 hours of cnet is burning me out. going to couch now only have 8 hours left to watch my beautiful Toshiba and I dont want to wear out the bulb have a nice day pal talk to you soon

Way back when I was in retail, I learned very quickly that there are 2 types of AV snobs. There are those that have owned, and are always upgrading their gear (because they could afford to) looking for AV nirvana. Then there are those I used to call the Wannabee's. They would come into the store and waste a salespersons time with their vast knowledge of the slew rate of this amp, and the THD of that, and why one $10,000 piece of equipment was no good and another was great. I am sure their only goal was to try to show up the salesperson, they of course never actually bought anything.
AV snob #1 would give opinions based on his or her actual listening experience, and although they would beat you up on price, if you dealt with them properly they would give you business.
If you have been to my little msn spaces site, you will know that a proper set up and installation is a requirement in my systems.