Attention: The forums will be placed on read only mode this Saturday (Oct. 20, 2018)

During this outage (6:30 AM to 8 PM PDT) the forums will be placed on read only mode. We apologize for this inconvenience. Click here to read details

Speakeasy forum

General discussion

Am reading "Traitor to His Class"

by Ziks511 / April 5, 2011 9:40 PM PDT

A biography of Franklin Roosevelt by the University of Texas historian H.W. Brands. Lot of parallels between the 1918 mid-term elections where Republicans won control of both houses, and subsequent Republican tactics which were to block everything, particularly American participation in The League of Nations, thus hamstringing the organization. Henry Cabot Lodge was the Republican leader who coordinated this mess.

It is so redolent of current American politics.

The book is a little shallow in my opinion, though its still early days yet and I'm only on page 150 of an 850 page book so I'm just 1/6th of the way into it, but it is rather gossipy which is amusing if not enlightening.

Brands has also done biographies of Andrew Jackson, Benjamin Franklin and a book about Texas where he teaches at U of Texas called Lone Star Nation.


Discussion is locked
You are posting a reply to: Am reading "Traitor to His Class"
The posting of advertisements, profanity, or personal attacks is prohibited. Please refer to our CNET Forums policies for details. All submitted content is subject to our Terms of Use.
Track this discussion and email me when there are updates

If you're asking for technical help, please be sure to include all your system info, including operating system, model number, and any other specifics related to the problem. Also please exercise your best judgment when posting in the forums--revealing personal information such as your e-mail address, telephone number, and address is not recommended.

You are reporting the following post: Am reading "Traitor to His Class"
This post has been flagged and will be reviewed by our staff. Thank you for helping us maintain CNET's great community.
Sorry, there was a problem flagging this post. Please try again now or at a later time.
If you believe this post is offensive or violates the CNET Forums' Usage policies, you can report it below (this will not automatically remove the post). Once reported, our moderators will be notified and the post will be reviewed.
Collapse -
(NT) Read on; other books.
by drpruner / April 6, 2011 6:24 AM PDT
Collapse -
Also printed by STUPID COMPUTERS!
by drpruner / April 6, 2011 6:29 AM PDT
In reply to: Read on; other books.

Read on; other books, other authors.
Lodge was a thoughtful man with well-founded objections to any such League. But he was willing to listen, until Wilson's own patricianism (?) got in the way. They both hunkered down, and there went "advice and consent." The sober Colonel House agreed in the end, and was eased out of the picture partly by Wilson's second wife.
Collapse -
But don't you remember the old aphorism, "The Cabot's speak
by Ziks511 / April 8, 2011 4:42 AM PDT

only to the Lodges, and the Lodges speak only to God". There was nobody more patrician than HCLodge. Wilson's idealism and perhaps his intellectualism got in his way, but it was the stroke he suffered shortly after returning to the United States that ended that dream. Wilson was unable to act as his own advocate for something he believed very strongly. Whether any of that would have made much difference is hard to tell. Historically speaking the US had broken away from Europe, and a significant number wanted it to stay that way in both the Democratic and Republican Parties. There was perhaps also a kind of callowness about the United States due to its having grown so fast. Maturity (if that's the right word) didn't set in until after the Second World War, which did result in a sort of League of Nations i.e. the United Nations, but more importantly in the shape of the Marshall Plan and the recognition that no nation is an island any more. In a hostile situation, nations either cling together, or are gobbled up separately.

To quote W.S.Churchill, "I'm in the Opposition, and the Oppositions job is to oppose." This when he was asked why he was speaking against a policy which he had once advocated. HCL was in Opposition, he may well have loathed the idea of the League of Nations, but he may just have been opposing. I should read his biography too.

Congrats on knowing who Colonel House was. I thought he'd been forgotten by everybody. House's great gift was his clear eyed practicality. I'm not so sure he was won over by HCL's arguments, but he certainly recognized a losing cause.

And I have to say, Doug, that it is very encouraging to me that others have trouble when posting. I am an erratic touch typist, and sometimes my pinky when reaching for the shift key hits either enter, which posts the damn thing before it's finished, or brushes a key with a symbol that looks like a page on it between Ctrl and Alt. That usually wipes out half the text I've typed, though if I can get to the right mouse button before I've typed anything else, I can Undo the lost text and restore it. Trouble is, sometimes, I'm not looking at the screen, but off into space composing my thoughts, and then I'm in deep doo doo.


Collapse -
It was in the land of the bean and the cod
by drpruner / April 8, 2011 9:02 AM PDT

that the Lowells spoke only to the Cabots and the Cabots spoke only to God. Back in D.C. it was another matter.

An excellent article in American Heritage some years ago discussed that critical period which affected not only the League but the Versailles aftermath. The widowered Wilson had married a woman who was something of a "trophy" and who very much enjoyed being First Lady. She began displacing House as close advisor even before The Stroke.

Given the recent carnage in 'the old countries', isolationist views were reasonable conservatism in the New World, just as Wilson's views were well-meant but riskier. The magazine brought out that Wilson had a tendency to treat any audience- Congress, let's say- as one of his Princeton classes. Thus 'the twain never met'.

1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, a League founder and advocate who shared the 1937 Nobel Peace Prize, wrote an excellent and fair-minded book about the early days of the League and the personalities who castrated it at birth, so to speak. Read on. Happy

And now, a relevant message from our sponsor:
I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step. Jer 10:23

Harsh words but true, as I believe post-Versailles history has shown. In that case, not League nor UN nor NATO will bring peace. Instead, we'll get fulfillment of this prophecy:
For YOU yourselves know quite well that Jehovah's day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. Whenever it is that they are saying: "Peace and security!" then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape. 1 Thes 5:2,3

Collapse -
Thank you, Doug, for straightening out my memory.
by Ziks511 / April 8, 2011 10:21 PM PDT

As to the millenialist biblical quotations. I do not feel certain enough in myself to interpret them or to draw either a conclusion or a date from them. An awful lot of people through history have predicted the end of the world and, so far, they've been wrong. It's not something I think about since I've done my best to live a considerate and respectful life, and have at least studied the Bible and have thought, deeply I think, on moral questions. If the world ends, I'm ready, and reasonably content.

Doug, this is not meant as a dig at your or anybody's beliefs, but there is an old Beyond the Fringe comedy sketch about a small group who go each evening to a hill top where they await the end of the world. They sing as the sun sets, "Now is the end, perish the world." Silence Then Peter Cooke in a Somerset accent says, "Well, not quite the conflagration we were led to expect. Ah well lads, same time tamarra?" And off they trudge each in his own direction.


Collapse -
(NT) Pastor Russell?
by James Denison / April 10, 2011 6:30 AM PDT
In reply to: found on youtube
Collapse -
I've heard that before.
by drpruner / April 11, 2011 7:54 AM PDT

Story says we were standing on a hilltop dressed in white robes, waiting to 'go home to be with the Lord', around WWI time. If there was such a group I suspect it wasn't Russell & Co.

But, suppose it was us. Looked rather foolish, didn't we? Happy ... Say, what were you Catholics and Lutherans and Jews and Mormons and Atheists doing at about that time? Flamethrowering each other, my history books say. Sad The white robe business doesn't sound so bad, compared to that.

Our perennial answer to end-time questions is in Matthew and elsewhere: 'Nobody knows, not even I,' said Jesus. BTW it's certain he knows now, since he has such an important part to play in it. In the meantime we go on serving Jehovah per his son's commands. Our intent is to serve forever.

A relevant OT story is the fall of Jericho.
First, Jehovah sent a warning. We know it was heeded because Rahab told the spies so. 'We're afraid of you because of what Jehovah [yes, she knew his name and his deeds] did to the Amorites and others.'
Second, she demonstrated her faith in Jehovah by her works- she helped the spies.
Third, although not a Jew, she was 'adopted' into the nation ad hoc and Jehovah's guarantee of protection was extended to her and her family.
Fourth, the city was given a warning and a chance to repent for six days. On the seventh day the warning march intensified, and the rest is history.

Today, the warning has been given for some 100 years.
Jehovah's modern-day deeds include building a world-wide organization of over 7 million out of what most agree is the craziest religion EV-er. Happy
We have faith in Jehovah and Jesus, and we go on to "exercise" faith by our works- worldwide preaching.
Jehovah operates today through a new Israel- a spiritual nation. Only a few of us are 'enrolled members' of that, but the rest of us have the same guarantees of protection.

You won't have noticed, but the work has intensified. It's easy for us to say we're in Jericho's 'seventh day'- I think so myself- but we don't make much of it on a personal level. We just keep preaching until we're told to stop.

All this and more in Bible Teach NoCostNoObligation. At your doorstep.

Collapse -
Speaking of Jerico...didn't they have a few earthquakes?
by Steven Haninger / April 11, 2011 10:18 AM PDT

Maybe the trumpets were so unmelodious that the inhabitant's head banging brought down the walls. Happy

But speaking of growth spurts, don't you think the early church the apostolic fathers did a fairly good job of kick starting the crazy new religion of that time? and were even able to get some modicum of unity going between the Hebrews and Hellenistics? What an accomplishment that was...

and all of this was done...and get ready for the topper now....

without a Bible. Devil

Collapse -
Jews, while known as "The people of the Book"
by Ziks511 / April 11, 2011 6:27 PM PDT

were primarily concerned with the Penteteuch, the first 5 books of the Old Testament. Their religion developed through the talk and debate and discussion that characterizes their schools and universities (i.e.yeshivas) today, the results of which are recorded in the Torah. The Torah consists of the Penteteuch (Greek for 5 scrolls) and commentary and the results of the above debates. There are 2 more collections of scrolls which contain the remainder of the Old Testament. Equally important is the Talmud which is a record of the debates and decisions of groups of Rabbis in the "Christian" Era. It records some of the oral tradition dating back to Biblical times, and the discussion as to its meaning and its proper application plus a great number of other issues encountered in subsequent times. I've always admired Jewish education with its accent on debate and discussion

Traditionally the Penteteuch is credited to Moses, though scholars now have discerned a number of hands which are designated by letters. J P E D etc. see also Talmud, same source.

In re: Jericho, the archaeological evidence suggests that it was the first city of any substantial proportion surrounded by walls the bases of which, though mud brick were built out to a 45 degree angle and heavily plastered to deflect chariots. Earliest settlement dates to between 9000 and 10,000 BCE. Jericho was (and is) a particularly well watered locale which enabled it to support a substantial population which accounts for its development into a city. It lies approximately 70 kilometers due east of Jerusalem in the area known as the West Bank.

It is certainly troubled by earthquakes, a large one of which destroyed the town in about 1550 BCE and again in 659 CE. After destructions Jericho suffered periods of abandonment, but the site was too attractive with all its water to remain so. Try Jericho on Wikipedia (where I cadged my information).


Collapse -
Fragmentation of Judaism
by James Denison / April 11, 2011 10:40 PM PDT

Of course the biggest fragment is Christianity. However at the time of Christ there were other groups more prominent, such as Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, Zealots (Sicari?) and some smaller ones. What passes for Judaism following the time of Christ was mostly from the Pharisees, who followed "teachings of men, rather than God" (see below) as Christ accused them, which teachings or traditions of the elders were later incorporated into the Talmud. There were two Talmuds, one from Jerusalem, one from Babylon. The Sadducees basically disappeared after the destruction of Jerusalem, becoming either Christian, or joined to the Pharisees. The closest thing to Sadducees today might be the Reform Judaism.

Matt chapter 15
Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Collapse -
If by Apostolic Fathers you mean the Bible writers,
by drpruner / April 12, 2011 7:30 AM PDT

they didn't institute 'unity among the Hebrews and Hellenistics'. They looked for right-minded ones of any background to become members of Jehovah's new nation of spiritual Israel. Part of the evidence is at Galatians 6:16 where he calls this very much mixed-culture congregation "the Israel of God".

If you mean the Hellenizers, they came much later and did much harm by their 'ear-tickling'. (2 Tim 4)
As just one example, they introduced Plato's 'immortal soul' into their religion, which has misled many into false doctrines of prayers for the dead, purgatory, hellfire and such. The truth is simpler, clearer, and beneficial: "And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul." Therefore Jehovah's statement of punishment is sensible: "In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return."
Also, only thus does Paul make sense:
"For the wages sin pays is death" [not torture; and]
"For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin." [No double jeopardy; not in any civilized country, not from Jehovah.]

It's what the Bible really teaches.

Collapse -
Hellenizers?? or, since it's all Greek to me, is that
by Steven Haninger / April 12, 2011 9:48 AM PDT
Helen-izers? Well, there were quite a number of those. I don't remember all the names but not all lived to tell about it. Happy Just trying to be a pain here and have some clean fun at the same time.

I was speaking of the pure Hebrew and the Hellenistic Jews of the day and recalling the notion that Jesus wasn't there for just the old culture Jews (who were quickly losing their language anyway). As well, and this may start something, there's strong enough evidence that Jesus and the Apostles quoted from the Greek translations from the Septuagint though many, today, consider it to be corrupt. In any event, it would have been quite a feat for these apostles to travel among the various cultures and mindsets, preach the same message (to those who thought they alone were special) and come away with such a measure of success. We know some of what they wrote but nothing of how they spoke. Obviously they were much better at what they did than so many who try the same today....and don't we find that some of the most successful preachers and evangelizers turn out to be quacks? Wink
Collapse -
"Equally important is the Talmud"
by drpruner / April 12, 2011 7:42 AM PDT

Actually, it's more important to today's Orthodox, as their many commentators have noted.
We stick with the Law and the histories and the Prophets (among whom we count the Psalmists). Then we pay attention to those whom Jesus commissioned to shepherd the flock of God: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and the rest.

As to the Jewish predilection for "debate and discussion", it leads one into temptation. Example: The Bible establishes that God's name is Jehovah, yet look what 'debate and discussion' have done to that simple fact. BTW that was prophesied at Jeremiah 23:
"How long will it exist in the heart of the prophets who are prophesying the falsehood and who are prophets of the trickiness of their own heart? They are thinking of making my people forget my name by means of their dreams that they keep relating each one to the other, just as their fathers forgot my name by means of Ba?al." No doubt your researches have led you to the fact that Baal is translated ... Lord!

Try Jericho on Wikipedia" No thanks, got Bible. Happy

Collapse -
Jericho is one of the most important Biblical Archaeological
by Ziks511 / April 12, 2011 11:54 AM PDT

sites next to Jerusalem. "There is more In Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than is dreamt of in your philosophy." Nominally the Israelite Joshuan destruction is associated with the earthquake of 1550 BCE. I believe that one of the sets of bones discovered under the collapse had a bronze arrowhead embedded in the shoulder blade which actually gives some substance to the association with a battle at the time of the earthquake, although the arrow didn't come with a tag saying "This One's for You signed Joshua". Jericho has nearly 12,000 years of history, and much to tell us.

Biblical Archaeology is a very dodgy area with much contention, many factions, and much insistence on discovery with little solid evidence to prove the associations advanced. Regular Archaeologists of the Near East tend to stay away from those who are trying to prove the associations with Biblical text because it distorts their points of view. If you start with a thesis, you tend to interpret things to fit. If you start, rather like CSI with a body, and by careful examination of it and all the surrounding circumstances you have a chance of coming to a reasonable conclusion.

I grant that it's frustrating to the layman, and to the true believer alike, because neither is satisfied with the limited statements that Archaeologists are willing to make.


Collapse -
"limited statements that Archaeologists are willing to make"
by drpruner / April 14, 2011 7:49 AM PDT

Not true; the Israelis have used it for decades to locate mineral and water deposits; most important discoveries are not argued in any way significant to theology.

But you're missing the point. The old rules- Golden or otherwise- have proved themselves many times over. When all around you are committing robbery it doesn't mean the criminal codes are no good, it means that more people are ignoring the rules. (And society suffers, as all agree except the successful burglar.) That, too, was prophesied by Isaiah who said people would call good behavior bad and bad behavior good. And here y'all are, fulfilling prophecy! Grin

More: "As regards anything besides these [scriptures], my son, take a warning: To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion [to them] is wearisome to the flesh."
"... in order that we should no longer be babes, tossed about as by waves and carried hither and thither by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in contriving error."
"For [Jehovah's] invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world's creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable;"
And those are the tactful ones!

You're a reader, let's see how you do with the Bible, which you say you've read. This is an open-book quiz, For the purposes of the quiz the universe of the Bible is assumed to be the one under discussion, just as would be done for Melville's fictional universe in discussing Moby ****.
Here's a famous quote from Jesus:
"Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU."
(a) What kind of sentence is this?
(b) What is the major point of the passage?
(c) Three entities are mentioned: a father, a son, and a holy spirit, and the phrase "in the name of" is used. What is the name of the father? What is the name of the son? What is the name of the spirit? Alternatively, If the phrase is taken to mean one name for the three, what is that name?
(d) Brief essay answer: How would you interpret the meaning of the phrase "observe all the things I have commanded you"?

Here's another famous quote:
"In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The next verses go on to summarize how he created these things. Our question is: Why did he create the earth?

Our kids- even below the iconic "fifth-graders"- know the answers.

Collapse -
the real question is;
by James Denison / April 14, 2011 12:05 PM PDT

Do your children know the true answer?

All three, are God. The Father, the son, the Holy Ghost. Same as all of us are Man; you, me, Ziks, etc.
A real chuckle is Jesus didn't mention the Arch Angel Michael, or any of the others. Of course we know Jesus wouldn't have mentioned Michael as God since Hebrews chapter one tells us;

<i>God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his
glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by
the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down
on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels
said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And
again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness,
and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with
the oil of gladness above thy fellows. </i>

Fellows?! You mean there's more than ONE?!! Wink

Also Thomas called Jesus, "My LORD and my God!"

So, to answer your questions about;

<i>"Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy
spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU."</i>

It is a clear and obvious sentence, clearly spoken and expected to be clearly understood by His disciples, concerning the Trinity (for lack of a better word). I would call that a declarative sentence.

The major point and "in the name of" is to teach the revealed godhead, and that they were the ones in whose authority the disciples were to do what he'd commanded them. We are Man, Jesus and the others are God. The Holy Ghost has a task to be the Comforter. Notice in passages below that Jesus and the Comforter will be operating apart from each other in a near future time for the disciples. See, even God sometimes multitasks!

John 14:26 - But the Comforter,
which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall
teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance,
whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 - But when the Comforter
is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of
truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7 - Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

As for the earth;
Isaiah 45:18 - <i>For thus saith the LORD
that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it;
he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.


Of course, before it was inhabited it was;
Genesis; <i>In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. </i>

PS- I hate this posting box small size in this new color and format.

Collapse -
RE: PS- I hate this posting box small size
by JP Bill / April 14, 2011 12:11 PM PDT
In reply to: the real question is;

click your mouse in the bottom right corner and expand the posting box to the size you want

Collapse -
using FF 3.6.16
by James Denison / April 14, 2011 2:22 PM PDT

for some reason I don't have an option to make the reply box bigger. What you suggested does not work for me.

Collapse -
(NT) I'm using FF 4.0
by JP Bill / April 14, 2011 8:29 PM PDT
In reply to: using FF 3.6.16
Collapse -
PS..... I just noticed
by JP Bill / April 14, 2011 8:34 PM PDT
In reply to: I'm using FF 4.0

the ability to expand the message box is not there this morning...The fact they added those icons in the message box have something to do with missing expansion feature?

I didn't notice them yesterday???????

Collapse -
tried the toggle yet?
by James Denison / April 15, 2011 12:30 AM PDT
In reply to: PS..... I just noticed
Collapse -
Four questions.
by drpruner / April 15, 2011 5:07 AM PDT
In reply to: the real question is;

One answered correctly.
Two answered incorrectly.
One not answered.

25%; typical score for trinitarians.

Popular Forums

Computer Newbies 10,686 discussions
Computer Help 54,365 discussions
Laptops 21,181 discussions
Networking & Wireless 16,313 discussions
Phones 17,137 discussions
Security 31,287 discussions
TVs & Home Theaters 22,101 discussions
Windows 7 8,164 discussions
Windows 10 2,657 discussions


Your favorite shows are back!

Don’t miss your dramas, sitcoms and reality shows. Find out when and where they’re airing!