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General discussion

Age old but IMPORTANT questions

Jun 13, 2005 6:13PM PDT

1. Can you be too safe?

In a couple days I will have Spybot, Ad-Aware, Norton, Zone Alarm with Avast running in the background. Giggles and grins prompted me to get Windows Washer. Browser is Mozilla, but just in case I go into IE every now and then to download the critical updates. Would a download of Spyware Doctor or Blaster be overkill?

The cons CNET lists for all of these programs is that they might not catch the newest threats. Yippee. Do I seriously need anything else besides the brain to not open attachments and other obvious attempts at a hijack?

2. Do you have to break the bank to be safe?

The best programs appear to be free. Anyone with any friends knows somebody with an antivirus disk. Sure that may not be the most legal way to go about things, but even the biggest stickler on that can use avast. Are the free programs plus one payment for Norton be enough? Is there seriously ANY pay programs that can outdo the combo of Adaware and Spybot?

3. Why do some programs exist?

CCleaner and many other programs on download.com seem to do what you can do manually in numerous ways. If I don't delete the history, cookies, temps etc myself, my browser will. If not, a simple disk cleanup will. That's 3 ways without wasting any MB on programs.

Discussion is locked

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People seem to regret not using these products
Jun 13, 2005 8:43PM PDT

when they have a problem. It is a lot easier to prevent than to clean malware.

The other part of the "equation" is, where do you go while online? Porn sites? P2P sharing? Free downloads? Your surfing habits will have a huge influence on what and how much protection you need. I don't go to risky sites but still want to be safe. That is why I have several programs installed that I use frequently.

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Running 2 antivirus programs = looking for trouble
Jun 14, 2005 4:26AM PDT

Hi all ,

If you are running 2 anti virus programs , then you are looking for trouble.

They can cause conflicts and lead to much more problems.

Just a good advice.


Greetings ,


Pcfreakske2000

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Free avast version
Jun 14, 2005 5:14AM PDT

I don't know if it acts as an antivirus as much as a nonstop scanner if I don't have the professional version. I will heed your advice as I will not need the added, if any, protection in a few days. Thanks for the tip!

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No multiple firewalls , and other answers
Jun 15, 2005 1:39AM PDT

PCFreak is right. If you have both Norton AV and Avast, ditch Norton; I think Avast is better, (and yes, it is a true antivirus).

Also you should not run two software firewalls. If you have Win XP and are running ZoneAlarm, turn off the XP firewall; ZoneAlarm is much better. It is fine to use a software firewall in conjunction with a hardware firewall, such as NAT in a router.

I use both AdAware and Spy Bot. Each will miss some spyware, but the two together will catch most of it. Running three is probably overkill.

The main key to safety is to keep your antivirus and anti-spyware signature databases up to date. If the malware is not recognized, it is not caught. Use automatic updates, or check frequently for updates.

In item 1 of your original post, you bring up the matter of AV programs not catching new viruses. This is unavoidable; when a new virus appears, it must be detected, analyzed, and a signature found. This must then be added to the AV database, and you must download it. This takes from one to several days. Hence, the caution stated above about frequent updates.

In item 1 you also mentioned not opening attachments. How then would you get pictures, long documents, etc. from friends or anyone else. True, you should not blindly open attachments, especially from suspect or unknown sources; but from known and/or trusted sources, first do a virus scan on the attachment and then open it if clean.

To answer your question in item2, yes, there is a lot of good security freeware out there, but not always the best. The pay versions of Avast, AdAware, ZoneAlarm, are better than their free versions, and this is the case for many others programs. Whether the Whether the added features and bells and whistles are worth the cost is a personal opinion; a feature isvery important to me, and worth the cost, may not be at all important to you.

Re your item 3. Sometimes programs are written for the same reason people climb Mt. Everest. That aside, people want such programs for a various reasons. They may not know how to do the things manually, they may want the convenience of automation, or they may not want to spend the time. Say a businessman could spend 10 minutes a day on a manual task, or no time doing it automatically. Over the course of a year this is about 40 hours, and, if his time is worth $50 per hour, this is a $2000 difference. The program is then well worth its cost.

Frank

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Replies to El Alquimista
Jun 18, 2005 12:22AM PDT

First off I did ditch Norton---and Avast. I'm running AVG now. The most security-minded person I know recommended that one. You're right, Zone Alarm remains my firewall.

As far as item one goes, I was more talking about how CNET rated the programs. In their Hall of Fame of spyware killers, the only cons remained inability to catch new threats. In place of that they should say to run your updates before scanning. The attachments you mentioned were the ones I meant. Moral of the story was use your head while using the internet.

I agree wholeheartedly on your item 2 analysis, and the Everest analogy was a great one for item 3. It's definitely a matter of convenience, but if you're like me with minimal space on a computer, you'd prefer program reviews mention they are unneeded.

As for piracy, I was being hypothetical. All-in-all, I would say you agree mostly with my statements. You can have a spyware and virus free computer without dropping a ton of money in the process.

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Oh, I forgot
Jun 15, 2005 2:07AM PDT

You mentioned using someone's AV program disk. Bad idea! If is a paid program, that is piracy and is not condoned. If it is a copy of freeware, don't bother; download your own copy, then you will have the very latest version.

Frank

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Two good replies there
Jun 15, 2005 2:47AM PDT

Nice posts El Alquimista

Mark

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Thanks, Mark
Jun 15, 2005 5:28AM PDT

Just trying to follow your excellent examples.

Frank

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Too much ware
Jun 16, 2005 11:39PM PDT

I can tell you about my personal experience with all these wares just to provide another example.

I, of course, use firefox, as it is superior to IE in almost every way. I don't want to sound like I belong to the Church of the Firefox but I'm willing to bet that most people reading these forums are using firefox (or perhaps something else other than IE). It by itself, I feel will protect most users from all the garbage on the internet.

Firewalls
I don't have too much experience here. I got Zone Alarm when it first came out for my old P3 PC but I got rid of it after a few weeks, as I didn't really notice it doing anything. Since then I have had a P4 PC and a Centrino Laptop. Neither run Zone Alarm although I'm considering getting it again. I have never had a problem not using a firewall (although I haven't disabled the windows one). I really don't think anyone is interested in my pictures, movies, or music to take the effort to get into my PC. I'm glad they don't but what gain would the get out of it?

Spy/Ad Ware Scanners
I love Adaware. It works great and never fails me. Then I got Spybot and run them both together. I have them at work too. I got Microsoft's AntiSpyware Beta a few weeks ago and it seems to be pretty good too. As an update I ran all three last night. MASB got 1 hit, Adaware got 25+ hits and Spybot got none. In all fairness all but 3 or so hits in Adaware were just cookies and I forgot to check but I'm sure Adaware got the same hit that MASB got. In fact I've disabled MASB's real-time protection because it didn't stop these from getting in, in the first place. I will give it another week or so to prove that it is needed alongside Spybot and Adaware which I probably will never remove.

AntiVirus
I hate Symantec but I believe Norton is the best AV scanner out there. I have always had some version of Norton (my Mom's PC still runs 5.0 and mine has 2003), and I have never had a virus in my computer as Norton catches them all before they get in. I also use common sense when going to websites and downloading anything. I think its horrible that Symantec charges you for the program and updates but it is necessary and what can do a better job? Certainly not McAffey which I not only despise but gave me such a difficult time removing its sorry **** from my sister's laptop when I bought her Norton. I've tried AVG before but I just didn't feel like I could put my faith in it. I am going to try Avast as I have seen it mentioned many times on Cnet and post what I think afterwards. One last thing, if you don't pay for Norton and your definitions go out of date there is no way to turn off that annoying message asking you to update them. I asked Symantec and they said you just have to uninstall it or pay for a new subscription which I think is not fair to those who bought the program and still want some small level of protection from it.

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COMMON SENSE!
Jun 17, 2005 2:54AM PDT

You are so right about to much ''ware''...Adware, spyware, sneakware, and who knows what ''else ware'' there will be next. You also mentioned something else that I try to instill in all my customers, and that is ''common sense'' using the internet and email. Its like when your mamma told you ''dont play in the street'' or ''dont download free screen savers''!

I also use FireFox. But old habbits are hard to die as I also go back and forth with IE. I try to stay away from criticism but JakeChance you are right about McAffe, very difficult to get rid of. I did use Norton for some time but was burned pretty bad. So I went to Trend Mico and used House Call to scan and clean the nasties out. I used their PC-Cillin which was excellent, but just got tired of paying. I now use Avast, which I think is just as good.

Frank I have about the same setup as you. I also have SpywareBlaster which You did not mention, which complements Spybot. It blocks the download of the nasties so Spybot dosnt have to clean them out. I compliment my protection with Ad-
aware and ms beta anti spyware. I also use zone
alarm along with my DSL router.

For what its worth I have had the same load of xp pro for over 3 years. Not to say I havent had my share of blips along the way. I have come close to re-formatting many times!

The only thing I'm paying for at the time, is a registry cleaner from Macecraft.com called RegSupreme. Its a one time lifetime license fee for $12 bucks and you can use it on all your machines. Its a small download and very efficient. It is free for 30 days.

parabraves you ask ''can you be too safe''? All I can tell you is to be comfortable in your own ''safe zone'', use what you feel you need and make it fit your needs.

Here is a site I give all my customers, (I build, and repair computers at home. I also run a free class once a month at my church on internet and email use) It is a microsoft site but unlike other ms sites with info you may have found difficult to figure out, this one is very comprehinsive, easy to follow and understand...

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/security/expert/russel_infectedpc.mspx

Best of luck
TOM

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Thanks Tom
Jun 17, 2005 8:39PM PDT

I love that site! It seems to have everything one could need all in one place. The article was user-friendly too. Much appreciated.

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You are welcome!
Jun 17, 2005 11:12PM PDT

I know we all have our opinions as how to help someone with problems. Not so long ago I didnt know anything about computers, say the mid 90's. While working for BellSouth it was sink or swim. It was tough, and there were folks having a worse time of it than me. I soon discovered I was helping the people in my group, and it was making a differance. Just give me clear, organized tools I can understand and I can do it.

I'm not the biggest fan of ms, but if you know where and how to muddle your way through the bs, you can find excellent help. They really do have real people with real help.

I hope you are having a great weekend up in Portsmouth!
TOM

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Less privileges increases security
Jun 17, 2005 1:14AM PDT

If you want to make Windows more secure, the first thing that you should do, before installing more software, is configure Windows to be more secure.

The best way to improve Windows' security, in my opinion, is to simply run it without administrative permissions, switching to the Administrator account only when you need to install new software, or apply the patches that Microsoft provides (which I also highly recommend). Doing your daily work without admin privs is the security model just about every opearting system other than Windows uses, in order to reduce infection/damage from malicious people or software.

An analogy: Running Windows wide open with Administrator privileges all the time, but installing spyware detectors and removers is like leaving your car unlocked all the time, with the keys in the ignition, but installing Lo-Jack and thinking that you're safe. Sure, once the car's stolen, you can recover it, but why risk having it stolen in the first place? And, who knows what kind of damage will be done before you recover it?

For more on running Windows without admin privileges, go to http://nonadmin.editme.com/ .

Once you are running Windows without admin privs, the next step is to install software to detect/remove the threat of spyware/malware. I usually recommend Spybot Search & Destroy and Ad-Aware. Both can be found at download.com, and are freeware.

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Some More Thoughts
Jun 17, 2005 2:24AM PDT

These are areas I and my technicians deal with every day... unfortunately usually after a client has been infected with malware and viruses. Here's my thoughts on your questions:

Q. Can you be too safe, and do you have to break the bank to be safe?

A. Taken to the ridiculous extreme, probably yes. I know of people who are so paranoid they buy every anti-whatever program known to man and practically cripple their pc and the usefulness of it by never browsing anywhere they aren't already familiar with, refusing attachments from any email (even friends and family), refusing to go broadband because it's "always on" and so on. You get the picture.

What you and I and most people need is a reasonable balance between enjoyment of the web, safety and security.

If you are already running Spybot, Ad-Aware, Norton AV and Zone Alarm, you're already ahead of the game. My only suggestions here would be to add a good pop-up blocker (Panicware has a pretty good free one, or you could use the one that comes with Google's toolbar for example), and a spware application that is more automatic than Ad-Aware and Spybot.

The downside to SpyBot and the free version of Ad-Aware, as good as they are at what they do, is that they have no or limited active protection, and you must remember to manually update them and manually run them (note that the brand-new 1.4 version of SpyBot has a scheduler which will allow you to schedule updates and scans).

If you want to spend just a little money on a spyware program, I would suggest you take a look at Counterspy, from Sunbelt Software. You can download a fully functional trial version for 30 days. It uses the same engine as Microsoft's Antiwpyware Beta, but goes further and adds it's own expanded definitions and options. As of this writing, we don't know what Microsoft's intentions are with their Beta program, which expires on 31 July, although we're all hoping that they keep it free.

The caveat noted in CNET that all these programs might not catch the newest threats is true. There is no, nor will there ever be, a 100% guarantee from any one, or even a combination, of programs. The antispyware and antivirus game is a constant see-saw battle between The Force and the Dark Side of the Internet.

The common key factor to an effective security solution is prevention. It is much easier to keep the bad guys out than to try to find them and chase them down after they've already gotten in. That's where your firewall, antivirus and (mostly paid) active antispyware applications shine. Keep them up to date and run the antispyware and antivirus apps regularly (I recommend late at night so they're done by the time you get up and back to your pc).

The Anti pop-up software, although it does add some additional protection, is more of an anti-annoyance tool.

Make a backup of your critical data and settings to some external media (CD/DVD, ZIP drive, Flash Drive, External USB disk, etc.) This is your disaster insurance in case of disk crash or other unrecoverable error.

The last leg of your security suite whish we haven't mentioned, is to keep your operating system fully patched and up to date. If you have Windows 2000 or XP, turn on automatic updates from Microsoft. Whether you choose to automatically download and apply, or download and review yourself before instlling, is up to you and your preference.

Q. Why do some programs exist?
A. While your observation is correct that many utility type programs, such as the CCleaner that you mentioned, do the same thing that you can do manually, they do it more automatically, and in some cases, better than the utilities embedded in Windows. One-click fixup, and free besides... not a bad thing.

Almost every utility program offered, whether free or paid, was designed to either address a shortfall or oversight in Windows, do what Windows does, but better, or to simply make what Windows can do easier.

Even Windows itself has utilities that are little known or only marginally documented. As an example, back in the Windows 9x/ME days, you would find many contributors to these forums recommending the use of disk cleanup, scandisk and defrag on a regular basis to keep a system running in top form. Most people ran each one manually and individually, never knowing that Microsoft included a utility called Tuneup that would do all three, and do it automatically, on a schedule the user could choose!

As for wasting MB on utilities, only you can decide how you want to allocate space on your hard disk. In these days of 250Gb hard disks and larger, it's kind of a moot point, but if you're constrained by disk space for any reason, then it's up to you to decide whether a utility is worth the space or not. I might point out that most utilities such as CCleaner, take up very little space (the CCleaner installer is less than 500Kb for example) and many are single run utilities, which means they're not loaded automatically nor do they sit in the background consuming memory (a much more critical factor than hard disk space) when they're not running.


Okay, back to your first question, and to sum up in a much shorter form, here's a good formula for software-based PC Security (listed in order of importance):

1. Keep your Operating System fully patched and up to date. If you do nothing else, do this.
2. Buy and keep current a good commercial Antivirus program. If money is a factor, use one of the free AV programs, such as Avast, or AVG antivirus.
3. Make and keep current, a backup of your critical settings and data to any external media of your choice.
4. Use a software firewall, such as Zone Alarm, that monitors traffic IN and OUT. Window XP firewall, though much better than nothing, only monitors INBOUND traffic.
5. Use Anti-Spyware software, keep it/them up to date and run regularly.
6. Use a pop-up blocker.

These, along with a reasonable dose of common sense surfing and email use, will go a long way to keep you from the "I was a victim" crowd.

Good job and good luck!

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Window washer
Jun 17, 2005 6:39AM PDT

I've been using WW now for 4 years.
Installed it originally because of the way my PC had been set up with only 2G partition on primary drive which got full (user files should have been on other partition).
Anyway, after running Windows disk clean up, WW cleaned out another 200Mb of junk files on its first run. Solved my problem in the interem until I could get the HD re-partitioned. Now I run it weekly just as a maintenence thing, along with defrag and spyware checks.

Also, have found AVG free better than Norton AV. Won't be subscribing to anything Norton from now on.

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Spyware Blockers - Automated
Jun 17, 2005 6:49AM PDT

Spyware blockers only catches about 60% of the junk that gets stored in your PC. The new spyware blocker from MS promises to catch about 90% or better, once it gets released (currently in beta.)

For those who speak Dutch, one of the best current solutions available is Hitman Pro 2 (www.hitmanpro.nl)

It downloads EVERY ethical spyware blocker (Ad-Aware, Spybot S&D, and several others - NOTE: Not all spywareblockes can be trusted either,) and runs them AUTOMATICALLY, after first dowloading the current updated for each. Running Hitman Pro, does not require the user to tell the software what to do with the junk it found. Hitman Pro assumes that you just want to get rid of it, and automatically clicks the appropriate buttons.

One caveat, it takes about 45 to 60 minutes (depending on the size of your HD,) to run this. In the meantime, Hitman Pro, gets upset when it's routine gets interrupted. If you have to interrupt, the best thing to do is to close Hitman Pro, and and start all over.

Even if you don't read Dutch, it's worth trying. Most of it is kinda self-explanatory. Just use your imagination.

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Questions one and two have been answered
Jun 17, 2005 11:17AM PDT

Now to answer number three:

Because some of the cleaning of spyware can go as deep as the registry to get rid of it. This is one place even with my background, knowledge and expertise I do not like to go to. It is even more dangerous for someone who does not know what they are doing. This is one place Mr. Koo and I differ on, I say if you can get a piece of software to do the job safely when it comes to registry, use it. Mr Koo on the other hand feels an unexperienced person should dive right into the registry. My philosophy is: Too much can go wrong in the registry if you do not know what you are doing! I kind of liken the computer to like a vehicle; You do not have to be a mechanic to drive a vehicle. So it goes with a computer, you do not have to have a degree in computer science to use a computer. Now using the vehicle/computer adage if you can get a mechanic/computer software to do the job more efficiently then use them. Like I said at the beginning most adware/spyware is deep rooted in the registry too, do not go there alone if you do not have too. So no, cleaning up adware/spyware on your own is not going to clean up/kill adware/spyware.

Hope this helps.

Rick

http://www.rickswebfactory.com/

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jahan, techtype
Jun 18, 2005 12:31AM PDT

jahan- Excellent call! I dumped Norton and Avast and use AVG. Takes a little longer to boot up but the reason for that is it's doing a bootup scan. I like the thing so far, and it is decreasing my need for a pay program.

techtype- I agree, but people simply need to know what is safe to delete. The folders I have found that contain useless ware are cookies, temp, temporary internet files, applog, and history. Temp carries program extensions, but deleting them has never once caused any problems with my programs. This is probably because the same thing is in a different folder.

Again, I'm in a bind due to a very small drive. Those who routinely have 100 gig available need not worry, but even I have a problem with a cluttered start menu. IMO it is still a good idea to know what you don't need, like CCleaner.

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CAN YOU BE TOO SAFE?
Jun 18, 2005 1:34AM PDT

I found out the hard way that too much is bad for you.
I loaded Zone Alarm Pro in the middle of 2004 after becoming a tad paranoid from all the 'net-nasties' I was reading about in some very good computer magazines.
A few months later I loaded Norton Internet Security.
Shortly after that my Outlook Express crashed.
It took me 5 months to sort it all out.(I'm a newbie).
I have learned that the ZAP firewall and the NIS firewall ''conflicted'' with each other and stopped my OE from sending and receiving emails.
Then I read in a newsgoup that Norton and OE are ''basically not compatible''.
We need CNET forums to guide us and help us when we are floundering about, thinking we are doing the right thing, and no one to help us.
Viva la CNET.

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Norton and OE not compatible???
Jun 18, 2005 2:58PM PDT

The subject is pretty hard to believe, as I've been using this combo (first Win98/NIS2002/OE6 and now WinXp Home SP2/NIS2005/OE6) for about 3 years now without any imcompatibilities. The only problem I've had was that NIS is a resource hog and wouldn't work well on my AMD 500mhz home built. I've had no problems at all since I've gone to an AMD Athlon XP 3000+.

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Here's a guide created by a fellow PC user.
Jun 18, 2005 1:25PM PDT
http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=2000111&topic=15644860

Nice thing about this guide is that the guy who compiled and wrote it provided his AIM. He was able to answer some questions on some stuff. Strange tho that at the time of the thread, he mentioned he still uses just IE, but recommended to me during our AIM conversation to use firefox. That would eliminate at around 70% spy/adware.