After reading about the seal clubbing

In a earlier port i said canadians would'nt be against the killing of animals if it ther were killing their stock.Fron Echo2's reply i see he is against the killing of all animals for any reason.Seems to me part of some animal welfare group that spread nothing but lies.

"If it were Albertans or Sakatchewan farmers killing wolves or some other animal we Canadians would oppose that too."

And here I thought you were leaving Stick around you might even get to like us

You're twisting my words around.
You said that you Newfies were being singled out and treated unfairly by the rest of Canada.As proof of this you said that we would not oppose Albertan farmers killing animals to protect their farms. I then said yes we (Canadians) would oppose those killings to show you it was not just an anti Newfie prejudice on our part.Now you accuse me of being some wild-eyed animal rights activist claiming that I am against killing anything.

Most likely written by a animal welfare who are conning the public into making big donations.

One thing I notice about advocates of various animal slaughters is their frequent accusation that these animal rights groups and biologist and veterinarians are running some kind of scam. What I never is see is proof to back these allegations.

as everybody now knows, I was wrong. There was some talk a few years ago about banning clubbing but apparently it went nowhere.

Apparently there was film footage broadcast almost 20 years ago of poorly killed seals being skinned while they were still moving. Turns out it was a put up job as alluded to by Houndog. A film crew from, wait for it .... France .... paid some hunters $500.00 to provide gory footage.

No program needed

BBS codes that are available for use

I just do go ahead with the long link. Bold, italics, links, and the like are very easy with that little program someone posted some months ago, though.

... animal rights activists fail to mention that Canada closely regulates the seal harvest and that only one in 10 seals is clubbed; the rest are shot.

It also states:

Unlike the cod in the region, he said, seals are not in danger of steep declines in population.

Since the late 1970s, the Canadian seal population has grown from just under 2 million to more than 5 million. There is a ban on cod fishing in Newfoundland.

A mostly poor, rural community of 12,000 hunters and their families in and around the Magdalen Islands off Quebec have relied on clubbing seals for generations.

The islanders depend on sales of pelts for much of their income.

So between yourself, JPBill and Hounddog there appears to be some misinformation presented as well as that disseminated by the animal rights groups opposing it. If the seal hunting is directly to support a community financially and NOT to cull a herd to protect fishing, it ought to be presented as such forthrightly. However since conservation of a species is not an issue here, we seem to have a world full of hypocrits that pick and choose which animal lives are fair game for the advancement/sustainance of humans and which are off limits. Seems to be an awful lot of heart-string tugging in that regard, as well as some international cultural snobbery. Should Indians (as in the Country) boycott American goods or refuse to work for American companies because of how we treat cows here? It was easy for the environmentalists with cushy jobs in First World countries to enact global bans on certain types of wood, while Brazil, for example, has its economic hopes of emerging from the Third World dashed.

Evie

I just gave reasons why clubs should be used instead of guns.

Unlike the cod in the region, he said, seals are not in danger of steep declines in population.

Since the late 1970s, the Canadian seal population has grown from just under 2 million to more than 5 million. There is a ban on cod fishing in Newfoundland.

A mostly poor, rural community of 12,000 hunters and their families in and around the Magdalen Islands off Quebec have relied on clubbing seals for generations.

The islanders depend on sales of pelts for much of their income.


As you say yourself the seal population has more than doubled in a few years while the cod fish are declining.Seals eat cod so it can only get worse unlesss something is done about it.
Fisherman need to cull seals to try and get the cod stocks back and also need the money made from the sale of the fur since they lost all income from the ban on the cod fishery.
So where is the misinformation on my part?

... except that if the stat about only 1 in 10 being clubbed and the rest shot is true, the mass chaotic shooting gallery scene portrayed is misleading. It would already have led to widespread killing off of the hunters themselves.

You have also now qualified the fishing issue. The way it was initially presented (obviously not by you) gave the impression that the cull was being done to protect an active (though perhaps endangered) fishing industry, and thus the trade of furs and other seal-products was a byproduct/perk/secondary consideration. However it seems that for some time, the seal hunt has been the primary industry supporting these communities. Yes, one goal might be to eventually revive the fishing so that seal products are not the mainstay of the economy, but that actually does a disservice to the people of the region. Folks are led to believe that the cull is to maintain another livelihood, when actually it is more of a harvest for their very survival, as in a livelihood of its own. Gets more difficult to summon up as much moral indignation as some do when this is the lifeblood of a people rather than exploiting the poor cute little baby seals and not wanting to mar the fur to make a tidy profit. Make sense?

Evie

... was that the previous discussions had left me with the impression that fishing is the primary industry that is being protected by culling the seals. Pelt-preserving killing techniques in this case would seem greedy/exploitive in a way ... make sense? By being up front about the fact that -- for some time now, and in the foreseeable future -- the seal trade is the primary industry supporting these people, more folks are likely to consider that pelt-saving killing techniques are essential to their survival. Another way to frame the issue is to address the fact that a successful cull should eventually have the effect of replacing its necessity with renewed fishing. Again, not everyone will accept this, but more are generally willing to accept an unpleasant situation temporarily if it can be permanently eliminated or the need for it greatly reduced.

IF the purpose of the cull was solely to increase the fish population , why bother to skin the seal? Why no just leave the dead seal(unskinned) on the ice floe?

For the same reason that after the parts taken from a cow are used for human consumption, other parts are used for pet foods, and hides for leather. If the seals are to be killed for other reasons, then it would be a sorry waste of the animal to leave it. The only thing worse than killing an animal just for its fur, would be to kill it for some other reason and not harvest the useful fur. I'm not a fur person, but if I were, I would rather buy seal that would have been culled otherwise, than mink that has been raised in a farm for just its fur.

In the past there were sealing companies that sent big ships with hundreds of men to the ice flows.The men got on the ice to kill seals (did'nt use the word hunt because seals are there by the thousands)with hundreds of men and thousands of seals on ice that is moving guns are not safe and clubs used.They took HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of seals so they were not a problem.The fishery had to close after years of almost no seals being killed due to anti sealing groups and low price for fur.
For the fisherman cod fishing was always their main souce of income which they did whenever they could fish.Sealing for them was just a chance a make a few exta $$ when they couldnt fish.It is only now that they want to get into sealing more because fishing for most of them is still closed.
They hunt from small boats (usually under 60 feet)and hunt from them so use guns.They cant get into the ice
flow where they could get trapped.Mostly they just trim around the ice and get on it just to retrieve any seals they shoot.
Which ever way you want to look at it the seals have to be thinned out.To give the cod fishery a chance to come back and the fisherman a chance to make some money,dont see what difference it makes.
On our local news just 1 hr. ago it showed a big ship at the seal hunt and protesters there.It said the protesters had to stay back so far from the hunters but i misssed part of it,believe it is a few hundred yards.Anyway the sealers using clubs and not a gun in sight.Good thing for the protesters i would think lol.

you just have to relize you dont need to club them to death.

do i reply to you .You either dont read or just dont understand what you read.

... is part PR problem, part disinformation campaign. If indeed there is not a gun in sight during a hunt where protestors are witnessing, it does no good for a representative of the Canadian government to be claiming that only one-in-10 seals is clubbed. Something awry.

The PR problem is evident in that this most recent post of yours should probably have come first. It seems that the current government sanctioned cull is necessary unless fishing becomes permanently extinct as an industry in the area ... in which case the seal trade would become the mainstay it already appears to have temporarily become at this point. There are going to be some that will not be happy no matter what so long as the cute little seals are killed. But there is a larger group that would at the very least not interfere with a people trying to make a living if given the facts. It is important to let people know that fishing is ALREADY banned and not something that faces problems -- you know how people don't like to act until there's a crisis

As to the clubbing, it does seem to me that some sort of spring-loaded or even mildly charge powered device might be a reasonable alternative. If a man can get close enough to deliver an exacting enough blow to kill a seal instantly, it would seem he could also momentarily hold some sort of device against a seal's head for long enough to deliver a spike through the brain (thinking ramset here). Or isn't there any way to herd these little pups into some sort of nets and onboard some big ship to be killed under more controlled circumstances? I admittedly have no idea if that last suggestion is somehow feasible or just laughable

Evie

Enough of this for me some people have no idea what it is like to be on an ice flow.I doubt very much if any of you would be able to stay standing.
Mark after reading some of your posts and replies all I can do is pray for you and hope you get better.Take care.

... we were having a rational discussion. Take your blinders off and realize that for the most part, I was even advocating for "your side". Even Mark, who you have singled out for your special ire, has not expressed opposition to the kill, merely advocated for a more humane killing.

It is unfortunately incumbent on the sealers to wage the PR campaign and educate the public. Since the Canadian government is sanctioning the most recent cull, it is incumbent on THEM to do so as well. If clubbing is the only feasible way, make the case ... but don't attack those that merely offer alternatives.

I find it hard to believe that on the one hand, these slippery seals on teetery floes must be clubbed to death because the precarious physics and sheer numbers make shooting an impossible and dangerous solution. YET, OTOH, it is contended that clubbing is actually more humane because one exacting blow will kill the seal instantly and these same teetery sealers are capable of the supreme coordination to do so with regularity. Sorry, but that is an argument that doesn't add up in the common sense department -- even for those that admittedly have never been on an ice floe. If the reality is that a less-than-humane method is the only pragmatic one, then so be it. But perhaps with today's technology, fewer regular folk are prepared to swallow that in the face of what appears to be stomp-your-feet-hold-your-breath stubborn determination not to consider or explore other alternatives.

I guess you won't read this since you've left. But I can hope you do anyway, and pass the advice along to your government.

that have become very large in number, enough to possibly do more harm than good, yet people who are opposed to hunting voice their opinion that none should be killled at all. I think sometimes there are groups of people with tunnel vision and theres nothing much to be done about it other than to continue to attempt to educate.