After reading about the seal clubbing

that have convinced us Americans that we really ARE better, dear........for you to be happy if you could kill yourself and take some of us with you just shows your total ignorance in what we are all about, and why we fight jerks like you wherever we find you now.

Good day........you are the standing statue of what I mentioned as the type of poster we (our members here in SE are worldwide and not just USA people) see every once in a while. People who are bitter, hateful, miserably within themselves and try to bring the rest of the world down with them in order to justify their own existance. Won't happen, hon......

When you find what you're looking for inside yourself, come on back and stop looking at others for your happiness.

TONI

made by the usa that makes people like me.
You never condem the killing of innocent people yet you go insane over the killing of animals that are nothing but a nuisance destroying innocent fish that are the only way thousands of people make their living.Seals dont just eat fish they kill millions by just taking bites out of them.Maybe I did come on too strong in past posts but it makes my blood boil getting bull from people that only get their facts from anti sealing groups out to make money from fools.

Hounddog, it might have helped all of us, including and especially you, if you would have just shared something about yourself. Maybe allowed us to understand you a little bit first. Your messages of anger and bitterness, all by themselves, can be difficult for the readers to swallow.

I do have sympathy with the fishermen, also. I live in Oregon, and we have seal vs. salmon issues, too.

.

Nice to see someone on here that has some knowledge of what is going on and just not condem without knowing the facts.I wish people would get wise to the animal rights groups most of them are con artists that make videos staged to show animal abuse.Who would'nt kill rats that were invading their homes and destroying everything?I live on the island of newfoundland and seals are destroying everything around it putting fishermen out of work and food off our tables.Common sense says they should be thined out.People and their children mean more to me than animals.

why not use a gun? they say clubbing dosent hurt the fur, well 1 little hole is that bad?

would go out on the ice floes that always moving with several men carrying guns but not me.

them either if you need to use a club i guess you can use a gun

One of the problems with shooting from a boat is the fact that the boat is moving, the ice floe is moving and the seal is moving. Difficult to hit.

Suppose you are on a boat shooting at a seal, on a bobbing ice floe.

IF you are lucky enough to hit and kill the seal, in one shot, someone either has to be on the ice floe, or get off the boat and go and recover the seal.

If there are hundreds of seals on the floe, do you get off the boat after each shot and retreive each seal or wait till there are a bunch of them dead or wounded. They do escape when wounded and that is waste. Every hole in the skin results in a deduction in the value.

Do you want to be the person on the bobbing ice floe with someone shooting in your direction?

I don't imagine they "enjoy" what they are doing but I agree with houndog and they are doing what they have to for themselves and their family.

WARNING: Contains some graphic detail from my days doing animal testing with rats.


I'm not saying the clubbing of seals is right or wrong. However ...

(1) Fishing is a vital interest and occupation for the HUMANS of the region. Inasmuch as seals interfere with that, there is a legitimate interest in culling.

(2) Inasmuch as the culling is justified, it seems reasonable that the death be as productive as possible -- IOW the preservation of the fur for goods. I've stated before that I used to do animal research, primarily with rodents. In order for the studies to be meaningful, the rats had to be of relatively uniform age and weight. Scheduling being as it was, and accounting for human error (dose didn't go into the vein properly), it wasn't always possible to order rats and use them all for a given study -- those that got too big, or old, or weren't used because you lucked out and everything went 100% as planned weren't just killed, they were harvested for control plasma and organs. If shooting the seals causes significant loss of "collateral productive use" it may seem more humane, but it is more wasteful of the animal's life.

How many that would boycott seal fur wear leather jackets and boots? Is it because they are so cute and the cow isn't?

(3) We can all agree that hunting is part sport. I'm a hunter myself, and while it is true that hunters overwhelmingly eat or donate their kill (so that others might eat), I know of few hunters that actually need to hunt to survive. Most, hunters included, abhor such activities as those staged hunts where the victims are somewhat confined so as to make the kill easier. What I'm getting at here is that actually getting "up close and personal" and having to club the seal to death -- however brutal a death this is -- has the effect of "keeping real" the circumstances that require it. Don't know if that makes sense, but think of it as the difference between sentencing someone to death vs. spending some hours with the person and administering the lethal dose oneself. I again use an example from my own days of animal work. Commonly to obtain blood from a rat it was at least partially asphyxiated by placing it in a dry ice chamber. One had to watch this process so that the rat was taken for decapitation (to get the blood) not long after so that, preferably, the heart was still beating. This in itself was a powerful reminder that the rat DID suffer (however briefly). It would actually be more humane to just decapitate the rat. In one study I had to do just that as CO2 asphyxiation might interfere with the results. But it's a tricky thing to hold a squirming rodent in a guillotine and make a clean chop. (Here's the really gory part coming up). I managed, but one precocious rat pulled its head back as the blade was aready on its way down. I chopped half its face off. Somehow I managed to keep it together enough to realize this rat was very much alive and suffering and put it back in the guillotine to kill it. That is a memory burned in me and it has a significance in that it was the ultimate in "keeping real" what I was doing. I doubt highly that those that club the seal relish in doing it any more than I might have relished killing the rats. It is to them, as animal experimentation was to me, a "necessary evil" for a greater good or need. I'm trying to put myself in their boots and am thinking they very much are trying to muster the strength and coordination to end that seal's life as quickly as possible. But doing so in that manner "keeps it real". Employing snipers from a helicopter disengages the human from the full gravity of what they are doing. Buying your rib roast all nicely cut and trimmed in the grocery is eons more disengagement.

I agree with you that shooting would seem more humane. But I cannot condemn the clubbing in the way some here have for the reasons I have hopefully sensibly stated above.

Evie

but i will still say if they can club it to death the tiny hole wont make a diference.
and yes i eat meat.
i beleave in hunting, i wont hunt any animal for sport.
but you can i would say your right they need to be culled.

my rats/mice for my snakes are breed and killed by co2.

I was about to make a post in support of your position until you came on so strong with the hate-filled diatribe. It masked the one valid point you were making. There are advocacy groups as regards preservation of species and animal rights as well as the environment that routinely ignore the other side of the coin. These types seem to stand exclusively against something without offering a practical alternative (although Mark's suggestion of shooting seems far more humane to me). Still, some will object to that as was the case in CT a few years back. Here in NE US we have a deer population problem and hunting is consistently under attack as a means to control it. Many were killed in a controlled hunt -- oh the outcry! (http://dep.state.ct.us/burnatr/wildlife/pdf/deer97.pdf) . In addition to being a nuisance, deer are road hazzards and tick/Lyme disease carriers. I haven't heard many rational alternatives presented. Sterilization programs, AIR, do not compare favorably on a cost-benefit basis.

There are examples galore of "well meaning" (or well-meaning turned advocacy-as-income-source) policies that have deleterious effects on other people or industries. The moritorium on certain tropical hardwoods comes to mind as well.

the insurgants are killing them not us but as you said were the baddys you need to relize that.

and we do condem the killing of inocents, look at iraq under saddam, look at pol pot the killing fields, look at the killings all over the world

Leave this place now, and leave it with your head hanging in shame. With the evil words you typed in this post you have dishonored yourself, your people, and your country.

I could never live with such shame.

DE

There are many other species of marine and animal life that eat fish. Seals do eat fish but they are one of many others that do. Humans as you know, consume enormous amounts of fish. In fact if you do a little googling on the subject you will see that it is overfishing by humans and not seals that has almost emptied the seas.I do not know which sources you are quoting regarding the emptying of the fisheries off Newfoundland and Labrador but I can tell you that overfishing and not seals is the reason the fisheries are depleted and in response, closed by our government. In fact our government has, on the strength of many scientific studies, at least once, closed the fisheries an an effort to replenish them. The government did not order a massive seal cull to bring the fisheries back they stopped the fishing.

... the seal population had some effect on the fish population? Numerous citations claim that the Canadian government's position is some version of:

The Canadian government claims the cull will protect fish stocks and bring in much needed revenue and employment for those who live on Canada's vast northern coastline.

I don't want to see cute little baby seals killed any more than the next person. But some people will never be happy. Replace fur goods with faux fur and manufacture that there ... simple, right? Well, anyone that knows how synthetics are manufactured knows there are other environmental impacts to be considered.

If the killing is humane and is not endangering a species, I see little difference between the sealer and the rancher that raises livestock for the specific purpose of killing it.

Evie

If the killing is humane and is not endangering a species, I see little difference between the sealer and the rancher that raises livestock for the specific purpose of killing it.
Amen
Tks. Evie you say it much better than I do.Guess its because I just see red when people just condem without thinking.

Selective outrage tends to outrage me every time! If the Canadian government's claims as to the humane nature of the kill are innacurate, this needs to be addressed. But folks need to be consistent in terms of what "harvesting" of animals is permissible to meet human needs and/or desires.

Evie

However, numerous independent scientific studies all show that there has been no doubling or tripling of the seal population. If anything it is the reverse. Our governmnet likes to say the seal population is booming but never listens to the scientists that claim otherwise and they almost all do. In the 70's several surveys showed that the seal population was down to about a third or even less of its healthy levels and in 1974 senior government scientists started publicly calling for an end to the seal hunt. In the 80's the European union banned the seal hunt a move of which most Canadians approved. In response the government stopped the comercial hunt in 1983 until1995.In 1996 the last government survey showed that the population had stopped recovering. I made the mistake earlier of claiming that the Newfoundland economy depended on the seal hunt. In truth only about 4000 sealers take part in the hunt and it is only part time work.
The killing is not humane Evie. Observers including, yes evironmentalists, but also biologists and veterinarians all say the same thing.
Here?s what one such international team of five independent veterinarians found:

79% of the sealers did not check to see if an animal was dead before skinning it.
In 40% of the kills a sealer had to strike the seal a second time, presumably because it was still conscious after the first blow or shot.
42% of killed seals examined were found to have minimal or no fractures, suggesting a high probability that these seals were conscious when skinned.
Here is a more extensive study if you wish Evie:http://www.ifaw.org/ifaw/dfiles/file_95.pdf
In fact our own laws governing the issue:http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/F-14/SOR-93-56/index.html allow them to use clubs.In fact they are in a way, encouraged to use clubs and icepicks because they get charged two bucks a bullet hole per skin.

... to herd these seal onto a vessel for a more controlled situation where they can be restrained and delivered one good poke of the brainstem?

Why would "gaffing or hooking" seals be unacceptable??

I would be interested in the seal population studies. If the Canadian government is lying about this that's not a really good sign

Evie

and if its "damaged" the $$ is less.

... it was the study on the seal death's Echo2 linked to that I lifted that quote from -- IOW, it was unacceptable from a humane treatement POV, not unacceptable to the sealers regarding the fur trade. They have all manner of nooses to restrain alligators and the like, one would think that something could be done with the seals?

Interestingly enough, the study recommendations state that the kill should be stun (blow or shotgun), test (eye poke) AND exsanguinate as the only complete procedure. I seem to recall the blood flowing in the ice floes is one of the heart-string-tugging images that the veterinarians are suggesting be increased manyfold (far more blood to be bled out than is created in the skinning process for sure!)

Seems to be a lot of disinformation floating around on both sides of this issue

Evie

at all. The Canadian government has been playing softball with Newfoundland on this issue for decades. Many alternative means of killing the seals have been suggested but the sealers insist on the simplicity and cheapness of clubs and icepicks. What's more is that only about one half of the seals shot are actually harvested the other half get lost under the ice or so a leading observer of the hunt,Farley Mowat, has observed. Worse still is the footage that has emerged of our Canadian Coast Guard ships ramming the ice floes right into the seals that are on them in order to allow the sealers' ships to move in for the kill.
Gaffing or hooking is not considerd acceptable because they do not quickly kill the seal .These methods are no better than someone sticking a hook into you while you are still(partly)alive. They are supposed to gaff or hook only when the seal is dead.But more often than not the seals are still alive as the sealers can't be bothered to keep clubbing all day.
One idea would be to use an axe and simply behead them. This would,however, diminish their retail value.A poke in the brain stem would be nice if it worked. It might be more humane.But it would not be a quick death guarantee. The best solution seems to be a bullet through the head, if the Canandian government would not penalize the sealers for it.

... a direct brainstem "injury" would be the most humane but they give reasons why this is difficult. Animal control folks have all sorts of nooses and gadgets to restrain alligators and the like, so I do have a difficult time with why some combination of that and a spring loaded pick-to-the-brainstem could not be accomplished. Beheading with an axe is not likely to be any more consistently achieved than an exacting club hit IMO. Again, your own source says that a shot to the cortex is not as quick a death guarantee.

Still wondering why there they can't be herded into some sort of net to be transported aboard a more stable surface where they can be restrained and killed humanely. That doesn't sound like a really "nice" thing, but neither does herding beef cows into a slaughterhouse.

Evie

humane but it is potentially not humane in practice because of the difficulties in delivering the brain stem injury. A botched attempt will lead to suffering. You're right the study does say the gun is not a quick death guarantee. I missed that. I was surprised that they say it is a stunning method categorized as such along with clubbing. I would have thought that a gun would be more than a stunning method.The method they recommend will never be accepted by sealers.But there's no question bleeding to death is better than they are getting now.
I'm with you on the moved to some location idea. I think the slaughterhouse may be a good model. The cows are moved in a line and then when they step beneath the blade as it were they are simply beheaded. There must be a way to do that with the seals.