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General discussion

A contovery at a Missouri Reserfve Unit

Mar 6, 2004 4:01AM PST

{I}JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. - Fearing roadside bombs and sniper bullets, the members of the Army Reserves' 428th Transportation Co. turned to a local steel fabricator to fashion extra armor for their 5-ton trucks and Humvees before beginning their journey to Iraq earlier this month.

The Army, which is still developing its own add-on armor kits for vehicles, doesn't typically allow any equipment that is not Army-tested-and-approved, Maj. Gary Tallman, a Pentagon spokesman for Army weapons and technology issues, said Thursday.

The 72 vehicles operated by the 428th Transportation Co. aren't designed for battle and so have thin metal floorboards and, in some cases, a canvas covering for doors. But Iraqi guerrilla groups have been targeting all types of military vehicles with homemade bombs and small-caliber weapons.

Fort Riley spokeswoman Deb Skidmore said Thursday that the Army reserve unit will be allowed to take their steel with them to Iraq, but she said Central Command will decide later whether the troops will be allowed to use it.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/special_packages/iraq/7523317.htm

There is another story about Hummers at:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2095705/

Angeline
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

Discussion is locked

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So typical of bureaucracy and regulations.......
Mar 6, 2004 4:49AM PST

...everyone is bound to follow 'the book', and no one, it seems, in position with authority to step in and get the job done in a timely manner in an emergency. When lives are at risk, I call that an emergency.

One Pennsylvania Army National Guard officer in relatively calm Bosnia saw about 600 armored Humvees being used for patrols this spring and about 200 more just sitting around. He was so upset that he wrote the Army Times last month and complained that failing to move them to Iraq "bordered on negligence."

http://newsobserver.com/iraq/82nd_embed/story/2980808p-2731725c.html

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I've been wondering about the commanding general and his staff.
Mar 6, 2004 5:21AM PST

The initial invasion under Tommy Franks went extremely well, and seemed to use solid tactics. Since he was replaced, it seems like the troops are repeatedly hit by the same things. I know it must be tough, but it seems like they should be more successful in developing tactics to counter these attacks.

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RE: A contovery at a Missouri Reserfve Unit
Mar 6, 2004 5:43AM PST

Hi Angeline,

On first glance it "looks bad" but the reality of the situation is that there are several factors that have to be considered when using add on armor.

One of the worst is that improperly applied it can actually increase risk of injury through increased spalling or by making a soft body capable of providing the standoff a shape charge needs for maximum damage.

Another is that the add on armor can cause some rather devastating secondary missiles against other vehicles in the convoy.

We used to use sand bags and boxes for essentially the same reason (additional protection) because they do not create secondary missiles and they absorb rather than increase spalling.

That they are being allowed to take the plating is a good indication that Central Command is willing to look it over and either approve, disapprove, or mandate necessary changes/reinforcement or attach points.

Although not always readily apparent, there is generally a sound reason for not allowing most modifications to equipment although I have always found that suggestions are always being asked for and implemented if workable.

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Re:RE: A contovery at a Missouri Reserfve Unit
Mar 6, 2004 6:46AM PST

Hi, Ed,

Well, there should be no lack of sand over there. I don't mean to sound so sarcastic, but I agree with Del on this one. It's an emergency.

None of us know who are dragging their feet to provide approved armor, so I am not pointing fingers. If it's because we will be leaving after handing the government over to the Iraqis, there might be some logic there.

But until then, these good warriors are fodder for homemade roadside bombs, grenade launchers, and rifles. Lo- tech successes against our hi-tech force. I am aware that even more armor would not guarantee a lack of deaths/injuries, but it would give them a better chance.

IMO, it doesn't exactly give impetus to generating new recruits to serve.

As the Commander is there and has seen it first-hand, I believe he will do what he can to cut casualties.

(Warning- more sarcasm) I wonder how many Congressmen who visited Iraq rode in one of those vehicles. There's probably a VIP tank.

If sturdier armor was not reasonable, IMO, there would not be some Hummers already so equipped.

Americans turned out Victory ships, tanks and planes in record time. They can answer the call again, if the call comes.

Angeline
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com