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Question

$700K

Apr 28, 2018 9:05PM PDT

Discussion is locked

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Answer
A comment about
Apr 29, 2018 5:13AM PDT

how 'anyone can make one for free' pertains to laptops/computers that come from Dell/HP/Levono/Gateway etc that has a 'create recovery disk' feature. I've complained about this crap for years when I was posting both as a member and as a Moderator in the ZDNET/CNET forums......First, most people (at least years ago and even many today) weren't/aren't aware of this feature of being able to burn a bootable recovery CD and were devastated if/when their computers were trashed from a virus or a harddrive that crashed and burned and had no SEPARATE reinstall disks because they were no longer being sent with their new computers. If it only costs a quarter to make them, why were the companies refusing to furnish them anymore? If you didn't know to make your own copy and had to get in touch with the manufacturer to get it, they were charging $75 or so because they were telling you that you were paying for a Windows license (even though you ALREADY had one). It was a total scam by both Microsoft and the mfr.

Another comment. I have a Gateway desk computer that came with Windows 8.1 installed and all the extra garbage mfr's include now.....I immediately created the backup/recovery on both a NEW EXTERNAL harddrive AND on a USB device (I was allowed to make TWO copies according to Gateway so I did). Everything went smoothly. Not so much with the two HP laptops purchased in the last year. BOTH gave me the option to create that recovery disk on either CD's (3/4 required) or a USB device (I was warned by the software program itself that I could only make one copy.) Knowing that cd's over time will get scratched and no longer function, I chose the USB option. NEITHER laptop would create the media....I would constantly get errors during the 'verification' process. Once the USB device was plugged in after I made the attempt and I went to view the files on it, all of the files were there, but without the verification process being complete, there was NO WAY I was trusting that I actually had what I needed for a complete factory reinstall. Called HP for the first laptop....after being walked through the process like a two year old by some foreign tech 'support' idiot numerous times and explaining over and over again how I did NOT want cd's and demanded that they mail me a USB recovery media, I was given the OK and a confirmation email explaining how it was going to cost me $70 to get it. Called back again and demanded that I get it FOR FREE since I could make it MYSELF for FREE IF their stupid program worked properly and the laptop was in my possession for less than a week and was covered under my warranty. The USB device AT NO CHARGE was in my hands within five days. Called HP for the SECOND laptop six months later because the SAME issue was happening with this new laptop. Same runaround, same 'walkthrough' steps taken, same argument about cd's vs USB, same confirmation email wanting me to charge $70 to my cc for the device, same call back with the demand that I get it for FREE, and again, the device was in my hands within five days.

It's ALL bull.... and if they can attempt to scam someone who KNOWS the game being played out of $140, think of the MILLIONS they are getting from novices. I know for a fact that my daughters in their 50's AND my grandkids in their 20's have NEVER tried to make recovery disks from their new computers even though they've been warned by me numerous times. "It'll never happen to me, Mom" attitudes piss me off to no end, but I'm not the one losing all my data (I make backups of that stuff regularly) or having to worry nothing can ever be recovered. They're grownups (they think) who have no problem spending money when they don't have to evidently.

Do I have a problem with the guy in the article getting 'pirated' crap from China? Yep....I don't care if everything on those disks made is 'free' or not. If it's all free anyhow, what's so damned hard about making those cd's at the MFR level and sending them with the freaking computers in the first place like they used to years ago? Why deliberately put it on the consumer to make their own? Because how can they make an extra $70 for every computer they sell? They are making money off of 'stupidity' and 'ignorance'......

For those doubting Thomas's here who always want proof of my statements here's a link to the Computer Help form post I made. It's actually still up in the forum as a permanent thread at the top and it's from 2005.... https://www.cnet.com/forums/discussions/getting-a-new-computer-already-have-one-60567/

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Yup
Apr 29, 2018 7:38AM PDT

Brand name machines no longer ship recovery media.

They give the user a program to create their own.

Most users will not or can not do this.

When the machine blows up it can be painful and expensive to get it fixed.

I get the impression this guy went to msft and downloaded the free iso and burned a cd.

Then he found a place to make 1000's of copies of this cd.

He planned on selling these copies to refurb shops for a quarter a piece.

I don't see any pirated software and I don't see $700k in value.

The refurb shop could burn their own disc but it would cost them more than a quarter.

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yes, you can download the ISO
Apr 29, 2018 9:43AM PDT

for free; however, there is still a licensing issue. Without a legit product key code, even a refurbisher is unable to get the installed ISO to work UNLESS, that refurbisher has purchased the same product key from MS in bulk and use it for hundreds of machines. I used to have a MS Word program for W95 that was on floppy disks....I was, by default, only allowed to reinstall it five times and it wouldn't install anymore. Needless to say, I installed it over multiple new computers as I upgraded and then it stopped working entirely. However, because floppy disks are rewriteable I was able to open the .ini file and edit it to allow as many installs as I wanted, and did for years afterwards until I finally got one of the newer versions of Word. CD's for installation are not rewriteable so any refurbisher would absolutely need multiple licenses for the same product key to install the OS on refurbished computers. IF that's the case, and those licenses for the same product key were purchased in bulk at say $15 each, but charging the customer $75 or more for each one sold, and the customers don't know that hundreds of others have the same product key being used on all those machines, there is a real scam going on behind the scenes and they are all being duped. Since you will pay $300 or more for a new version of Windows, if sold separately at BestBuy et al, which many won't buy if they can get a whole refurbished system for that price, the refurbisher makes out like a bandit.

Another bit of info about this topic.....my Gateway has a product key code in plain sight....NEITHER of my HP laptops have ANY so that product code is built into the recovery media automatically. So....are my HP laptops actually refurbished units that were sold as brand new? No way to know.

As for the refurbisher burning their own ISO disk....absolutely it would cost around a quarter since they could download the ISO for free and burn to a DVD...the only cost to them is paying an employee to do the burning since they only have to do the download once. Any extra 'factory' programs they want to add, such as antivirus or some office type program and perhaps a few game, a link to Netflix or Skype, etc. would need to be added as well. Download everything to one file folder, open the folder and burn everything at once with an autorun.exe and off you go. But whether they can include the product key automatically so there is no input from the customer, that's a maybe.....obviously they wouldn't have a 'genuine MS sticker' label to affix to the computer unless they had permission to print them all with the same license product key. Which I'm guessing is why only a handful of refurbished machines I've seen actually have that sticker....that key is already embedded into the install info on the disk they use and put into the recovery program for the customer to then burn themselves.

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True
Apr 29, 2018 10:14AM PDT

If the machine has a product key then it can be used to load the OS.

If no product key then the refurbisher/installer has to buy one from msft.

That has nothing to do with what this guy was selling for a quarter.

He seems to have made it clear that there was NO key included.

Which leads me back to how did this product get a value of $700K?

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Without a product key that is legit
Apr 29, 2018 1:00PM PDT

the value is zero because it can't install.....so a product key MUST be used. Since the software download can be had for free, it would actually be the cost of the license itself that raises the value skyhigh. IF the product had no PHYSICAL key included, it MUST be inside the burned install disk itself and IF it wasn't purchased, it's PIRATED.........by SOMEBODY. OR the refurbisher has a MASTER KEY that he was using for EVERY OS installed, BUT is it included on a PHYSICAL label attached to the refurbished computer for the owner to use during a reinstall later? It would have to be since once the 'illegal' cd is burned, the cd cannot be edited to include one in the autorun.exe files. AND he is using the SAME master key for every refurb he sells, unbeknown by his customers that MANY have the same key, which in itself is illegal unless he has made some sort of bulk license deal for that particular key with MS. IF he is using many DIFFERENT keys because he has purchased a retailer/dealer bulk deal with MS, he's required to give that key to the customers as well.

There are many variables to this story, and I believe the whole story hasn't been told and it seems MS isn't offering up any info regarding refurbishers. THAT story would be well worth knowing.

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Key
Apr 29, 2018 5:29PM PDT

Without that key the value of what this guy was selling is close to zero.

Yet the court valued it at $700k.

All this guy has done is relieve the installer from the task of making their own disc.

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Ah, a trip down memory lane
Apr 29, 2018 11:01AM PDT

when you and I both were moderating years back. After XP, I finally said "no more" for me at least, and went fully over to Linux instead. I still feel like Microsoft gets the benefit of a lot of free online help from forums such as this, as product support for them. If they had to pay for all the free support provided for their product, they'd go out of business. I still help in these forums, but I feel better now helping others using "free" Linux systems with the "free help".

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Answer
Let's hope they get a better lawyer and appeal.
Apr 29, 2018 1:11PM PDT

Post was last edited on April 29, 2018 6:26 PM PDT

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Cd key
Apr 29, 2018 6:21PM PDT

If these disc contained a license key then he was stealing from dell.

He made it clear they did not contain a key.

The guys mistake was he put that dell label on the disc.

Yes a real dell recovery disc does contain a license key but that disc will cost far more than a quarter.

Yes a dell recovery disc does not ask for a key when installed.

If you don't have a key then what this guy was selling was useless.

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It's an entirely different activation system.
Apr 29, 2018 6:27PM PDT

It's been talked about for years, but CD Key? It's a bios/signature thing that Microsoft and Dell worked out.

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OEM discs are basically no different than hardware
Apr 29, 2018 6:40PM PDT

I believe part of this is MS testing the legal system to go after everyone who sells replacement OEM discs on EBay. It is the same as an automobile manufacturer saying nobody else can manufacture and sell a tailight or headlight lens peculiar to that particular model of car other than them, and we know those are sold by other manufacturers.

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One way or the other
Apr 29, 2018 6:41PM PDT

You must have a key.

It might be on the disc or part of the bios or something you buy separate.

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If it was on the CD/DVD
Apr 29, 2018 6:45PM PDT

Then the key would fail as it checks into the Microsoft servers. I don't mind when folk discuss this but it's done with an OEM version just for Dell. It's technical but on the web for those that want to research it.

Same goes for Sony and other brands. As time goes on, few will remember this area.

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If that's the deal then HP also falls into that list,
Apr 30, 2018 3:20AM PDT

because I have two of their laptops in the last year that has no MS label or paperwork that gives me that key for a reinstall....both are W10 systems. My Gateway desktop computer has one and I bought it two years ago with W8.1 installed on it and in February this year I did a system recovery back to December 2017 and didn't need it but I had it handy just in case. Not sure yet if I would need to use it for a complete format and reinstall since I haven't gone that far yet.

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We call these manufacturer OEM versions.
Apr 30, 2018 8:53AM PDT

HP, Dell, Sony and a long list of makers have this deal.

It's very hard on folk to accept this was worked out. That is, some insist there was a CDKEY on the media. In its simplest form, sure, agree with them but it's more complicated than that.

So complicated that we have what is always a never ending Q & A about it.

Post was last edited on April 30, 2018 8:57 AM PDT

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Key
Apr 30, 2018 4:59AM PDT

If it's a key that does not belong with that mobo then yes it would fail.

That's not what this guy is selling.

He's selling a recovery disc without a key.

He is not selling factory restore media.

Dell was nice enough to send an OS disc and a driver disc with this machine.
I tested the OS disc a number of years ago and during the install it never asked for a key.
Which seems to say the key is on the disc or in the bios.