61 total posts
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I feel your pain
There are many out there who chase specifications and new technology.
I didn't buy my first DVD player until they broke the $125 price point. Don't even talk to me about HD-DVD and Blue-Ray. Yes, I read about them in the many audio/video magazines I read. I'll get serious in another few years.
Many out there are going nuts over 1080p not even realizing that there are no 1080p sources. I just watched the HD broadcast of the Seahawks/Panthers game on my JVC EDTV plasma. The picture quality was very good. As soon as I get my set top OTA tuner and antenna and receive a HD signal the picture quality will be superb (as I viewed it before purchase in the dealers store under the same circumstances). DVD's thru my progressive scan player are outstanding.
I see many threads here by people who want to buy a $500 HTIB system and say it must be 7.1, a great example of chasing the numbers. I say worry about adding two additional speakers after you can't figure out any way to further improve your $5000 system!
Plasma and other flat panels from quality brands in HDTV give stunning picture quality with umcompressed signals. 1080p will be a very slight and barely noticible improvement unless you sit about 6" away.
Yes, anti-copying controls are being forced on us. Not much we can do about that.
Yep, you're right. HDMI is being adopted because it can be and is copyright-protected.
The full significance of 1080p will not be realized until hd-dvd and blu-rays are rolled out. Both formats are capable of 1080p content.
See my little entry here. . .
HDMI & 1080p
I too hate the idea of "copy protecting" vi HDMI, which is why I will use component until there is no other way and we are forced to use HDMI. But, in defense of HDMI, I like the fact that ONE cable can take uncompressed 1080p and digital audio. This would certainly cleanup the maze of wiring. Plus, give it time and I would venture to say that someone will invent a method of side-stepping the copy protection. I mean, how many of us have programs that defeat the copyguard on commercial DVDs. (Wow, everyone raised their hands!)
For the time being, 1080i or 720p is great, considering that 90% of the "High-Def" we see is up-rez'd. And for SD, 100% of that is useless when comparing notes on high-quality video. Commercial Film DVDs are the only thing that have any gleam of quality since they are mostly 24fps product at 480p. I would be very interested to see what the source material was for the 1080p demo material. Either it wasn't orginally shot or produced in 1080p or it was up-rez'd to 1080p which wouldn't show any increase in quality. Or, you didn't know what to look for when comparing 1080i and 1080p. There is no way that Interlace video can compare to true Progressive video when fast motion is introduced. You should see the same difference as when comparing a DVD movie played in non-progressive scan vs. progressive scan. If you don't know what to look for, both pictures look good.
True, there is no 1080p being broadcast right now (and may never be broadcast), but it is the native resolution that manufacturers are aiming for in their TVs and we will see more and more true 1080p technology hitting the market. This may take a few years, but do you remember when the first "Progressive Scan" DVD players hit the market? There was some debate about the merits but it soon became the mark of quality.
My source material was. . .
Direct TV and I used HD Discovery Channel and HD HBO. Granted I have no idea what their actual broadcast (no one will tell you) resolution was. But it was advertised as HD.
I remember when progressive scan was the latest buzzword... I just recently bought a $45 Magnavox DVD player that plays mp3 for my garage that is "progressive scan" - big deal. Just becasue a DVD player has progressive scan, doesn't mean your picture is going to look good. Take a $129 el chepo DVD player with progressive scan and hook it up to a crappy LCD RPTV and then compare that to my DVD player that costs about 40 times that DVD player, (without progressive scan) and into my NEC PlasmaSync 50XR5, and tell me which is a better picture. I love how people think that a $150 DVD and a $1500 are bascialy the same (except maybe one has a few more inputs or a better remote) - my god, did it ever occur to anyone that maybe, just maybe, it is built better, with better components and therefore produces a better picture? THERE IS A REASON THAT IT COSTS MORE.
Correct...there is a reason why some DVD players cost more and it does go beyond "progressive." And, by the way, all "progressive scan" DVD players are not equal. Do a Google search for "DVD Shootout" and read the tests. Of course, these tests are comparing minute details that only videophiles are concerned with, but it does matter sometimes. This test report identifies specific scenes in several DVDs that show problematic areas, such as blooming on intense reds, the vibrating patterns on images such as screen fences and shingled rooftops. These problems theorically are fixed by using a progressive player, but this isn't the case. The DVD players that use the Sage/Faroujda deinterlacing chip do NOT cost $50. They are expensive for a reason. Just for giggles, you should hook a "good" progressive DVD player up to your nice TV. I can guarantee you will see a difference.
linnfreak, What brand and model number of DVD player do you own? Just curious.
I think you will find in this forum that many people mention the progressive scan comment to those that might be new and are not aware that a new $100 progressive scan player might be an improvement over a 4 year old player from the same quality group that does not have progressive scan for digital TV's.
Yes, price usually does make a difference but not always so. The $300 Panasonic DVD-S97S, DVD player is superior in most performance factors than many DVD players running $1000 and much more. So it is not always true.
The SVS and Outlaw subs under $600 are vastly superior to many subs over $1000 dollars.
Well, I am using a LINN Unidisk SC and no matter the specs on any equipment, it's all about what it looks and sounds like on the screen. If you are OK with a $300 Panasonic DVD player, great, but do not get all worked up like you own one of the best DVD players in the world. There is a lot out there that I do not think you have ever been exposed to or will ever own. I love the reviews by all these websites and people saying that Panasonic is the ''hottest'', ''best selling'' plasma out there.... well, if you compare it to Vizio and Maxent and other crappy off-brand plasmas, yes Panasonic is OK, but throw it up next to a Runco, Pioneer ELITE, etc., and it fail horribly. I am just saying that people get so hung up on specs and buzzwords like ''progressive scan'', that they fail to realize that the DVD player they just bought basically sucks to begin with, with or without progressive scan. I will put my Unidisk SC up against ANY DVD player on the market under $3k. And as far as newer DVD players, my old unit (Sony DVP-S7000 - $1,000 - first machine Sony ever made), it would still kick the crap out of many ''new'' machines today, even as old as it is.
linnfreak.....Oh, I Get It!
I was wondering if there was a Linn connection to your screen name.
Of course Linn makes superb products even if they are a little esoteric and quite overpriced as are most audio/video products from Europe and the UK. A $5000 DVD that includes a pre-amp and sound processor is not my cup of tea even if I could afford it. That's actually a rather strange component combination in one chassis in my opinion.
I don't own a Panasonic DVD-S77S, I just mentioned it as an example of a product that was generally of excellent performance for a fraction of the price of some much more expensive DVD players that it outperforms. Panasonic is able to put some quality parts in at this price range due to their large buying power. If this was a typical small high end manufacturer this would probably be at least twice or three times the price or more.
I would mention Grado headphones as another product that I think has a ''great bang for the buck'' to mention an overused cliche that I think explains exactly my feelings on A/V equipment. I do not have the many thousands of dollars to spend that you apparently have. I still feel that I have very impressive home A/V performance considering my total budget. I shop very carefully for my components and save lots of money by avoiding the high-end components that are rated mainly on subjective evaluation. I avoid chasing new technology. No ultra expensive cables, speaker wire or power line conditoners here. I have read the double blind tests that debunk all the nonsense that permeates the pages of StereoFile (joke OK) and similar publications and dealers.
I looked up a review on your Linn Unidisk SC just out of curiosity. Hope you don't mind if I quote a little from it:
''The phrasing of every line was infused with feeling--appropriately--and the Unidisk had a natural, organic sense of flow.....It allowed Celibidache's occasionally broad tempos to work with the flow of each line, rather than seeming to fight it. The Linn even bested the very fine Naim CD5X which sounds substantial, colorful, and dramatic, with all the typical Naim rhythimic momentum--but compared to the Linn, the Naim sounded too solid and inflexible. By contrast, through the Unidisk, each line didn't just hang in the air, attractive and static--it moved...........The Linn was rhythmically faultless.''
I had several thoughts after reading that review. First, Father Murray would have made me stay after school if I had used ''bested'' in a paper. Secondly, what the hell language is that guy speaking?.....maybe arrogantese?
It's great to know that you have a DVD player that is rhythmically faultless.
Now I understand
When I use my DVD player, I just do not get that "organic, rhythimic, dramatic, colorful sense of flow" and my sound just hangs in the air. I may have to buy an Ionic Breeze air purifier to get that lingering sound out of the air.
I understand the new Oreck 8lb XL Ultra Super Ionic Velvet Zephyr Air Purifier simply blows (pun intended)all others away. It runs about $1500. Anything under $1000 is crap!
Have not seen anything from linnfreak fo a couple days, Must be spending his time in the elitistsnobAVforum.com/junk site. Everyone presented their points very well.
(NT) REALLY !!!
Yes, LINN, so?
Overpriced, yeah, your Panasonic DVD player will last 2 years likely and maybe costs $20 to build. Have fun with your mediocre equipment. Don't be mad you cannot afford decent gear, continue to buy with the masses. And again, reviews don't mean anything to me - I listen to thegear myself, I do not go off what some moron says on the web. And Grado headphones? Those are great headphones, but they are just like LINN is to most people - way too expensive and too easy to "slam" because you cannot afford them.
Two of my favorite models of Grado headphones and definitely in the best buy catagory are the model SR-80 for $95 and the SR-125 for $150. Expensive ?....why don't you post about something you are knowleable about, whatever that might be.
grado's are great..but
my ears are wayyy too big. i've owned a few pairs of akg, and sennheisers, and tried a few grado's. i travel to asia every year...and these headphones are wayy too uncomfortable for me on 14 hour plane flights.
i have since moved on to shure earbuds....just picked up some e4c's which i LOVE. a little pricey though for what you get. but its amazing. its comfortable and very good at zoning out crying babies on the plane without using a battery like some noise canceling headphones.
your an early adopter, your stuff is old and overpriced
Someone needed to tell you the truth
WHY IS THAT NOT A SURPRISE.
THE SET UP I HAVE AT HOME IS AS SIMPLE AS CAN BE (50''PLASMA, DVD PLAYER, HD CABLE BOX). ALTHOUGH I DO LOOK AT SPECS OF THE COMPONENTS I BUY, I REFUSE TO BE RULE BY THEM. I RATHER GET THE MOST BANG FOR MY $$, INSTEAD OF CHASING MY TAIL TRYING TO GET THE ULTIMATE PICTURE AT ALL COST.
1080P MAYBE BETTER ON PAPER, BUT HOW MUCH AN IMPROVEMENT WILL THAT TRANSLATE TO THE AVERAGE JOE? THIS ALSO APPLYS TO HDMI CABLES (AKA; UPCONVERT DVD PLAYERS). EVERYONE WOULD LIKE TO CLEAN UP THE MESS OF CABLES BEHIND OUR AV EQUIPMENT, BUT SPENDING A $100 A SHOT
TO DO SO WITH JUST A SLIGHT INPROVEMENT, IS A BIT OVER THE TOP.
EVEN IF HD DVD PLAYERS ARE ''FAR BETTER'' THEN THE CURRENT TECHNOLOGY, I'LL STICK WITH MY PROGRESSIVE UNTIL THE PRICE COMES DOWN.
More 1080P stuff
Quote: "1080P MAYBE BETTER ON PAPER, BUT HOW MUCH AN IMPROVEMENT WILL THAT TRANSLATE TO THE AVERAGE JOE? ...BUT SPENDING A $100 A SHOT TO DO SO WITH JUST A SLIGHT INPROVEMENT, IS A BIT OVER THE TOP."
Yes, the price is rediculous now, but just wait until more companies make the HDMI cables. And, when you first needed to hook up your DVD via component, didn't it seem excessive to pay for four cables instead of two? Also, the "Average Joe" eventually becomes the next audio/videophile, but keep in mind that there are still many "Average Joes" who would argue with you about the benefit of paying extra for a Progressive DVD player and all the cables needed for that. Was the "little improvement" you see from your progressive player worth the difference over interlaced? My dad is prefectly fine watching VHS movies through a coax cable. You will never convince him in a million years to buy a new TV so he could watch a DVD in progressive scan.
As far as the "Source" coming from DirecTV Discovery HD and HBO HD...there you go. That is 1080i or 720p, not 1080p. Yes, my Discovery HD and HBO HD look great, but it's not 1080p. 1080p has twice the information displayed on every frame of video over 1080i. You need a TV with native 1080p to utilize true 1080p. We're not there yet, but it's coming.
THAT'S MY POINT.
I CAN APPRECIATE YOUR PASSON AND YOUR EXPERTISE REGARDING THIS STUFF. THE POINT I WOULD LIKE TO SUGGEST IS TO SIMPLY TO EXCERISE SOME FISCAL COMMON SENSE.
WHEN I PURCHASED MY PROGRESSIVE DVD PLAYER, IT HAD ALREADY BECOME THE ''INDUSTRY STANDARD'' WITH A PRICE TO REFLEX THAT. I JUST FEEL BEING FIRST IN THIS ELECTRONIC GAME, WHICH CAN GET VERY EXPENSIVE, MAY NOT BE PRUDENT. (EXPENSIVE BEING RELATIVE)
THERE HAVE BEEN MANY DISCUSSIONS IN THIS FORUM REGARDING THE PROMISE OF HIGHER PICTURE QUALITY WITH THE USE OF HDMI. I CAN UNDERSTAND THE POINT OF LOSING PICTURE QUALITY WITH THE CONSTANT CONVERTING OF THE SIGNAL, BUT NO ONE HAS YET COME UP WITH A MEASURMENT (5%, 10%, 15%) OF HOW MUCH PICTURE QUALITY IS LOST. UNTIL I SEE A DRAMATIC IMPROVEMENT, I'LL STAY WITH COMPONENT CABLES AND WAIT FOR HDMI PRICES TO COME DOWN.
I'M AWARE THAT 1080P IS TWICE AS CAPABLE AS 1080I. THIS WAS THE SAME PROMISE WHEN 480P REPLACED 480I, BUT IF SOMEONE WHO SELLS THIS STUFF CANT TELL THE DIFFERENCE (http://reviews.cnet.com/5208-7596-0.html?forumID=60&threadID=149689&messageID=1668059) , I'M NOT GOING TO BOTHER. TO THIS DAY, I STILL CANT TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO AT A GLANCE. ALSO, KEEP IN MIND THAT THE CURRENT CROP OF 1080P HDTVS CAN (WITH ONE EXCEPTION) ONLY CONVERT HD SIGNALS (740P/1080I), BUT CAN NOT RECIEVE 1080P SIGNALS EVEN IF THEY WERE AVAILABLE. TALKING ABOUT A SCAM.
TODAY'S ''AVERAGE JOES'' BECOMING TOMORROW'S AUDIO/VIDEOPHILE MAY OR MAY NOT BE THE CASE. YOUR DAD, AS WELL AS MINES, ARE PERFECT EXAMPLES THIS CANNOT BE CONSIDERED THE RULE. FOR THE MOST PART, THE ''AVERAGE JOE'' (MYSELF INCLUDED) WOULD BE MORE THEN HAPPY TO SETTLE FOR QUALITY, RELIABILTY, AND AFFORDABILTY. LET THE INDUSTRY WORRY ABOUT IMPROVING THE STANDARD OF PICTURE QUALITY.
Don't expect much until we see,
THE new PS/3 from SONY; they'll be new sets on its heels. PANASONIC promises 1080p this spring in its 600U series. Material in 1080p may be available once
the new HD-DVD's and BLU-RAY gain some ground. I'm sure Sony will support its own material.
The human eye can rarely tell the difference anyway.
its only out for the size vs. viewing distances.
1080p is out right now not because "you'll be ready for the future with this brand new resolution". its out for 3 reasons.
1.) if you sit close and want a big tv...a 60inch dlp will be VERY pixelated if you only sit 7 feet away. manufactorers can't make money by selling only small tv's. they're trying to aim the 1080p sets right now at that kind of people. there is a BIG difference from 6feet away, but a lot of times...most people would have an idea of the size limits.
2.) for dlp sets, 1million mirrors vs. 500,000 mirrors. 1080p dlp's use wabblation(forgot how its spelled) which basically takes a mirror and "bend" it so each mirror can display 2 pixels. since its a new technology, right now its still expensive. but it is a much more cost efficient way to product dlp's. since they can get more resolution with this new technology, they threw the 1080p into the description for marketing purposes to attract people thinking.......(going onto 3rd reason)
3.) "the higher the resolution the better" "the higher the wattage the better". its amazing how many people go into a store to look at tags...and ONLY look at wattage on a reciever, or only look at resolution on a tv. (for those people: your hair dryer has 1200watts, try plugging speakers into it.) customers have been brainwash to judge things only by numbers which is sometimes a little annoying in a sales point of view cause those same customers a lot of times will shut you out and not listen to you. when customers see a 1900x1200 Westinghouse LCD vs. a 1024x768 Pioneer Elite Plasma....they will immediately think the Westinghouse is better because of the resolution. a lot of customers and even salespeople out there are not knowledgable enough..and will push the thing with higher numbers. manufactorers know that...so they make sure they advertise the resolution(or watts, or joules) without explaining it so it'll catch people's eye more so people would buy their products more. unfortunately, thats the way it is.
personally, i'd say most people will be very happy with a 1080i/720p tv....unless you're one of those people who likes to leave the info stickers on the tv's so instead of watching your brand new HDtv...you are just watching a sticker that says "1900x1200 resolution" thats taped to the screen and watching your power surge to see whats going on with your power instead of watching tv.
All good points, and Bonspeed, I agree with you. I'm not defending 1080p, I'm just bringing up the point that this is the direction the manufacturers are headed and HDMI seems to be the connection method they will be following too, as this will allow a clean, 1-cable connection for 1080p. By the way, I'm perfectly happy with component. And yes, all of the 1080p sets scale up from a 720p or 1080i signal, so nothing is being broadcast in 1080p, nor does it seem likely in the near future. But, more and more ancillary devices like computers, X-Box, PS3, etc will output 1080p and they will connect via HDMI. Some sets, like the HP sets, actually can take in native 1080p via HDMI. I haven't seen this yet. And Bonspeed, I'm in the same boat as you...I hate spending a ton of money just to buy the latest greatest toy. I like to wait until new toys are proven and the prices come down, and I evaluate what benefit I will gain from the new toy, if any.
And speaking of Scams
I also wanted to take exception to the original post stating that 1080p is a scam. I don't think so. It's just the latest direction of where things are headed. If anyone wants to point to the biggest "scam", why don't they point to the LCD/Plasma/DLP displays. There is so much unwarranted hype on these sets, it's unbelievable. Just take a look at all the posts here from people who've blindly followed the hype and bought a $4000 TV and are unhappy with it. Part of the problem is the source material, part of the problem is that the consumer needs to educate themselves about this new technology so they better understand it, and part of the problem is just pure hype that pronounces these new sets will, by simply buying one of these sets, give us beautiful HD pictures.
back to set the record straight on SCAMS
The previous poster stated that 1080p is not a scam. But every other major tv technology is(plasma,lcd,etc..). He is misguided.
Let me clarify my original points on 1080p. One it is released on tv's that can not support 1080p input(that smells like a scam). How can a tv be 1080p but not display 1080p? Second the part about broadcasters is correct, they have no intentions of going higher than 1080i/720p. And bandwidth is at a premium. So you basically have a real nice tv to play blu ray, or hd-dvd the only formats that will support this range of HD. Of course if you were an early adopter your 1080p might not be able to recieve 1080p input from these devices
"how can a 1080p tv not display 1080p"
You are correct...
I completely agree. I love how people get so caught up in the numbers game and "This must be better, it has more power" type of attitude. It is so funny seeing people go into Best Buy and think that they are buying the best plasma out there. They may be buying the best plasma Best Buy sells, but that is about it.
BB, CC, and the other crap establishments
I've been following your posts and little battles with RR6. I don't believe affordability should be a topic for an argument. You seem to be the type of person that sees what he/she likes in the showroom and that's the product for you. When I was younger, price went hand and hand with quality. That brought me to the high end electronics and high end showrooms. As I'm getting older, maybe not wiser, I'm noticing that best may not be the best choice. You mentioned Panasonic, Runco, and Pioneer plasmas. I've never shopped Runco, so I'll leave them out of this. I do know the side by side comparisions between the latest Panasonic plasma versis the Pioneer elites. The picture quality is amazing in both sets. In fact, both models, I feel far exceed others in their price range. Now here's where the consumer should choose what's best for them. Pioneer Elite Pro-1130HD runs in the range of $5500. Panasonic TH-50PX60U run in the range of $3500. The Panasonic really doesn't have any competition with any of the plasmas in that price range. It specs are excellent and it shows in the set itself. So, the question to the consumer, "Is the $2000 worth the difference in picture quality?" The difference is very minimal with the two sets. Panasonics have a higher contract ratio and Elites have more bells and whistles (inputs, dual tuners, accessories, etc). Also, the Elite has a two year warranty. Still, is it worth the price difference? People are funny when it comes to money. I have it, but I don't like to part with it all that much. When I was younger, I'd live in a cardboard box, but have the best electronics keeping me entertained. Granted, these are my opinions from seeing these sets in the showrooms. If I was offered an Elite at the same price as the TH-50PX60U, I would probably take the Elite only because it is worth more. Thanks for listening to my long, winded views on consumer spending.
1080p/HDMI...the scam to end all scams!!!
Fisrt HDMI, This does approach a conspiricy, To control how we can view material.
HDMI 1.0 to day is like USB 1.0, nice concept but poor performance in many cases.
In October of '05 the HDMI 1.1 spect( like UBS 1.1) was relaesed will be showing up in TVs, recivers later this year, promises better performance. When HDMI gets to HDMI 2.0 it should be good, hopefully. At this point in time I'm ignoring it.
First off 1080i and 1080p are both 1920x1080 pixels!!!
Keep in mind that the are 18 different digital TV specs!!
1080p can be in the following formats. 1080p/24, 1080p/30 and 1080p/60. The number behind the / is the frame rate.
720p can be 720p/30 or 720p/60.
So far the only 1080p that I have seen is 1080p/24, this conisides with movie film rate of 24fps.
Even to show 1080p/30 will require twice the bandwidth of 1080i/60. This is why TV sations will NEVER broadcast it. RGB will also handel 1080p.
The HDMI one cable concept is the sugar coating on the pill to control how we view TV. John