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10,000 Doctors flee from Canadian Healthcare Enslavement.

by James Denison / October 9, 2004 3:17 AM PDT

Welcome to the America that Kerry wants to institute. Before him it was Hillary trying the same thing. In 2008 it will be Hillary again running for President and pushing the same socialist garbage at America. EVERY senior aged person should be voting AGAINST Kerry, even if it means voting FOR Bush who they may have other greivances about. Setting aside the Iraq situation for a moment, just this one single issue is MORE THAN ENOUGH to not vote for Kerry. This Canadian debacle called "Healthcare" is not the legacy I want to leave our children, nor is it what I want to face in the coming years as I continue aging. If there was no other reason to vote for Bush, this healthcare issue would be the overriding reason I'd vote AGAINST Kerry.

I guess doctors don't take too kindly to being government slaves anymore than others. It's a shame
the Canadians have to endure this to such a terrible
degree because of their government's obstinance toward
continuing their socialist policies.


Googled for other sites with the article

Article

Or Here.
Morbid Humor

....says that hip-replacement patients often end up non-ambulatory while waiting an average of 20 weeks for the procedure, and that's after having waited 13 weeks just to see the specialist. The wait to get diagnostic scans followed by the wait for the radiologist to read them just might explain why Cleveland, Ohio, has become Canada's hip-replacement center.

.... Adding to Canada's medical problems is the exodus of doctors. According to a March 2003 story in Canada News (www.canoe.ca), about 10,000 doctors left Canada during the 1990s. Compounding the exodus of doctors is the drop in medical school graduates. According to Houston, Ontario has chosen to turn to nurses to replace its bolting doctors "creating" 369 new positions for nurse practitioners for the doctor shortage.

.... Some patients avoided long waits for medical services by paying for private treatment.....Bill 82 would disallow anyone from paying the clinical fees for private surgery, where previously only the patients themselves were forbidden from doing so. The bill also gives the government the power to levy fines of up to $20,000 on physicians who accept these fees or allow such a practice to occur. That means it is now against Canadian law to opt out of the Canadian health-care system and pay for your own surgery....


More at link


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Re: 10,000 Doctors flee -- disinformation and distortion!

James, I'm sure you know as well as I do that (unfortunately, IMCO) Kerry's plan has NOTHING in common with that in effect in Canada, with the exception of using government purchasing volume to negotiate less unreasonable prices for Rx drugs. BTW, have you noticed that a major "innovation" of the Bush health care plan is regional insurance pools for small businesses, do decrease the horrific insurance costs for small groups? If that idea sounds familiar, it should -- it's a less ambitious verion of a key aspect of the Clinton plan (they also extended the concept to all the uninsured in a given region). That was one of the main reasons the insurance industry invested millions in sinking the plan, because those small-group and individual policies are the most outrageously priced and therefor the most profitable for the insurers.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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That's what the Democrats want....
by J. Vega / October 9, 2004 4:11 AM PDT

If you control health care, you control life itself. This is what the Democrats want, total power. Once you slip up and let them have it you are at the mercy of the government. They want to do it like they do gun control, just get the basic idea on the books, and then amend the laws and pile on new regulations. Having had Government health care, I'm quite familiar with having necessary health items refused. Oh, but they won't do that to you, we've got Dave K. assurance that its "for your own good".

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Re: That's what the Democrats want.... WRONG AGAIN!
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / October 9, 2004 1:40 PM PDT

J, How many times are you going to try to put words in kerry's mouth and then attack what you said he said, rather than where he stands? That's what y'all did with the "global test," and now you're trying the same nonsense with his health care plan. This isn't my opinion, it's FACT, if you'd bother to read his health care plan at www.johnkerry.com Everyone gets a pass once -- if you repeat this scurrilous charge again, I'll call it for what it will then be...

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Sorry, Dave...
by J. Vega / October 10, 2004 12:52 PM PDT

Sorry, Dave, but for many years I've had the Government health care that the Democrats want to stick on everybody. They played the "not authorized" routine on me, and nearly to death. Your party may wish for everybody to be under their thumb, but I've been under it for a long while and find it sometimes an uncomfortable place to be.

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Re: 10,000 Doctors flee -- disinformation and distortion!
by gearup / October 9, 2004 4:32 AM PDT

It would be nice if the "complainers" were from Canada! But they seem to be from people who are not part of the Canadian PROVINCIAL Health Care systems.

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Re: 10,000 Doctors flee -- disinformation and distortion!
by Glenda / October 9, 2004 4:50 AM PDT

The Canadians seem to think they have a say in our voting process! What's the difference here??
Glenda

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Re: 10,000 Doctors flee -- disinformation and distortion!
by gearup / October 9, 2004 6:07 AM PDT

By what stretch of your imagination did you come to that conclusion. We are talking about the Canadian Health System...and I still think that I would like to hear from a Canadian as to how they like it and not from some blogger with an agenda which probably is also a non- sequiter!

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Re: 10,000 Doctors flee -- disinformation and distortion!
by daflo / October 10, 2004 8:57 PM PDT

Hey, I like that and I'm not "some blogger". I'm Canadian and have to say that we have one of the best health care systems in the world and don't give a sh.t what anyone else tries to say about it because if they don't live here then obviously their opinion is worthless!

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Say....

The Canadians seem to think they have a say in our voting process! What's the difference here??
Glenda

Posted by: Glenda Posted on: 10/09/2004 11:50 AM


================================

Not just Canada but the whole world in general wants to have a piece of their RATIONAL thinking gears put into words just like everyone else who would like to be politically correct....

Theodore Roosevelt once said on September 10, 1917 in Saratoga, New York....

Our country offers the most wonderful example of democratic government on a giant scale that the world has ever seen (not anymore with the rate America is going) ; and the peoples of the world are watching to see whether we succeed or fail.

And because our dear US of A has always been part of Global News as far as occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan and support for Israel, a country that has always been in the frontline of many wars --- naturally what do you expect from the world at large but to be politically intrigue. And the election is just keeping everyone on cloud 9.

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Re: 10,000 Doctors flee -- disinformation and distortion!

Great observation gearup Wink

I have to second on that...

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LOL! You're very right gearup!

And this is only part of the propaganda from this administration. Basically the same system works fine in the entire Western Europe where the government help people who are sick too.

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Dave, ever work in a hospital near the Canadian border?
by Paul C / October 9, 2004 9:50 AM PDT

I have a cousin who recently retired as chief cardiac care nurse at Massachusetts General and two friends who are physicians (one in neurosurgery and one in orthopedics) who had worked at the University of Massachusetts hospital in my birthplace of Worcester prior to moving elsewhere because of soaring malpractice insurance premiums (How about $175,000/year for basic coverage?)

All three noted that in their units in Massachusetts, at no time was the percentage of Canadians who were fleeing the "Workers' Paradise Healthcare Plan" ever below 30 percent; usually it was closer to 60 percent. In fact, my cousin said that eventually, Mass General had to ration vacancies in its cardiac unit to Canadians for fear that they'd lose the ability to treat Americans!

Anything along the lines of Kerrycare will result in health care rationing. Before you say that rationing already occurs here - I agree. The difference would surely be that the rationing would be massively larger than is now the case, and would reach far further into the system than is now the case.

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Re: Dave, ever work in a hospital near the Canadian border?

Hi, Paul.

I have a good online friend who was a nurse in Canada until her dibaetes meant she couldn't stay on her feet for long. She also recently had breast cancer, and reports she received excellent treatment. If you have a serious problem in Canada, you will get excellent, prompt, and affordable care. OTOH, there's a longer wait there than here for elective surgeries, as they have a lower priority -- as they should, IMCO

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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This single anecdotal experience ...
by Evie / October 9, 2004 11:06 PM PDT

... cannot negate the waiting times documented year after year by the Fraser Institute.

Evie Happy

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Re: Dave, ever work in a hospital near the Canadian border?
by Roger NC / October 10, 2004 10:34 AM PDT

Please define elective surgery in this context.

...there's a longer wait there than here for elective surgeries, as they have a lower priority -- as they should...


RogerNC

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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Health care has always been rationed in this country
by Diana Forum moderator / October 9, 2004 11:21 PM PDT

If you don't have insurance, it's limited by the amount you can afford or the doctors that are willing to see you for free. If you do have have insurance, it's limited by the amount that the insurance company will pay and which procedures it will pay for. It is also limited by finding a doctor that will do certain procedures (like delivering babies).

How many doctors in this country have decided not to do certain procedures or have retired early because of mal-practice insurance rates? Probably more than have fled Canada during the same timeframe.

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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Kerry's Plan...or Pipedream ?
by Mac McMullen / October 9, 2004 5:07 AM PDT

"I have a plan..." Kinda tired of hearing that phrase
repeated over and over and over, with no definitive explanation.

Anyone who cares to do so "will be able to buy into" the same
healthcare that members of Congress enjoy ?
Anyone care to guess what those premiums might be ? If
those same members of Congress had to pay premiums, I
doubt the plan would exist.

If the politicians continue to bully, and attempt to socialize,
the drug industry, we've only seen the tip of the iceberg
with respect to outsourcing.

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Going and Coming

A year ago, our US Family Physician and his family moved to Toronto and satisfied to practice in Canada (reason: shortage of dedicated physicians). A nurse friend and her family here moved to Miami for the money and later commented (you earn in US dollars, you spend in US dollars -- I'm coming home). My sister and her husband both nurses living in NC is planning to move to B.C. in 2006 (quality of life for them)

Coming and going...going and coming?

Discontent, bureaucracy, better opportunity, change of atmosphere, exploring comfort ability.... many reasons why people come and go...

While there are issues as far as the health care system goes --- which country does not? Oh my sushi! Vote me for President in 2008 for both countries and I will take care of the messy complaints.

The above number is a little over exaggerated. There are numerous links posted by participating members here to substantiate the initial post. It's intended to bring the worst about Canada's Health Care System in addition to presenting a tacky campaigning strategy in favor of their president elect.

I have no links to post at this time and I do not wish to indulge in that road to support the contrary however I had a long interview with my family practitioner during my yearly check up. To make the story short he quoted, "I am dedicated to my country, I am much needed in Canada, I am more interested in serving my people, I'm satisfied with what my office makes and I can't stand Bush and the American Politics. Your BP is 120/80 and 78 P"

Links vs. Live?. Wink

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A horror story.
by R. Proffitt Forum moderator / October 9, 2004 11:46 PM PDT

My friend's dad who I work with in Canada fell and broke his hip. The doctors put him in traction or whatever they call the slings and such.

He was dying from other problems so the committee rules to not fix the hip and let him live out his last 4 months in a hospital bed. I'm sure that they hastened the end by this decision.

In contrast, my wife's mother fell and broke her hip. They had her in surgery in under 4 hours and by the time the family arrived she was up and moving down the hallway (albeit slowly). She died about a year later due to other problems...

While Canada's health system is lauded for some areas, I don't think I'd want to be deathly ill there. And this comes from living there for 8 years on assignment.

Bob

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Re: A horror story.
by daflo / October 10, 2004 9:15 PM PDT
In reply to: A horror story.

So what! you lived here for 8 years and feel that you can give an opinion that reflects on the whole Canadian Health Care system! I've lived here for 65 years and KNOW that we've always had one of the best in the world!

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Re: A horror story.
by gearup / October 11, 2004 1:36 AM PDT
In reply to: Re: A horror story.

The same type of horror story is repeated hundreds of times in reference to the HMO's run by private insurers here in the states. A system by the way which the current administration is trying to push as a solution to our health problems.

Whether it is govt. or pvt. HMO systems which are not run by health care providers (doctors and nurses) have only bottom lines to worry about and dollars and cents become more important than service!

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Re: 10,000 Doctors flee from Canadian Healthcare Enslavement
by chuckko / November 10, 2004 12:34 PM PST

You are absolutely right!!!The canadian medical system is abysmal... and that is why thousands of americans are flying to canada to get flu shots because that darned socialist monolith to the north has 10 provincial governments and one national government with the wisdom and foresight to see the flu vaccine is not a $$$$ commodity but a social necessity on a continent where winters can be brutal and springs clammy cold...

has anyone forgotten the great influenza pandemic of 1918... at the tail end of a brutal and unforgiving war when a nations resistance was low

but then you're very priscient..healthcare enslavement is such a brutal phenomenon... you didnt add the subsequent canoe piece which talked about the thousands of canadian doctors and nurses who return from the US disenchanted after realising many of hospitals they have to practise in the inner cores of american cities are virtual armed camps....

perhaps healthcare enslavement in a safer culture isnt so bad after all...

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You're missing the Hillary factor. It was Hillary's plan
by Kiddpeat / November 10, 2004 1:45 PM PST

which drove US vaccine manufacturers out of business.

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Re: 10,000 greedy Doctors want more money

So much for the claim "I just want to help people!" Besides, where wouild American doctors go -- Taiwan?

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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A short sighted Democrat analysis. The doctors are
by Kiddpeat / November 10, 2004 1:48 PM PST

trapped, and can't escape price controls.

They'll go to other occupations Dave, and young people will avoid the occupation.

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Exactly
by James Denison / November 10, 2004 3:13 PM PST

Even though one of my daughter is a straight A student, graduated in top of class, I've dissuaded her from becoming a doctor for several reasons, of course the strongest being the constant exposure to diseases, even more fearfully those like HIV and risk caused by needles. The high insurance cost, the long schooling and residency requirements, and the long hours. There are too many other ways to make a living and not have such hassle.

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Sounds like the Manchurian Candidate...
by Charlie Thunell PL&T / November 10, 2004 5:40 PM PST

With your analogy there should be a lack of doctors in Canada and people should basically die like flies from different diseases, given the fact there doctors are no longer working as such. And the future must be horrifying for the country if people are not going to study to be doctors again! For how long has this been going on? If it is for more than 40 years, I guess the same argument was used from the same side of the political scale back then and proved wrong. Reason being, there are doctors in Canada and most of them stay!

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