Ep. 64: Who owns your online identity?You own your identity. That's why we talk about identity theft: Identity is clearly personal, and it can be stolen from us. But it can also, in some cases, be legally taken. So who really owns your online identity? Your social network? Your reputation?...
Hi everyone I'm -- it'll in this is reporters' roundtable welcome to the show this is the show every week where we dive into a single tech topic. And -- try to tease apart some of the complex issues that are technical today and today we're talking about identity. You own your own identity right. That's why we talk about identity theft because -- is -- personal and it can be stolen from us. But it can also in many cases in some cases be legally taken if you work and modern business and you create relationships with people. During your employment he can be argued that if the relationships -- work related. Your employer owns those relationships. If you create a rich social profile that supports -- -- -- on FaceBook or Twitter -- random twittering to support your job. It's a bit unclear. Whose identity or persona or reputation that is -- yours is businesses that some shared arrangement. Meanwhile FaceBook and -- -- and Google are becoming. Universal electronic identity providers and many sites right now you can easily log on using your FaceBook identity. So this FaceBook own -- -- they own your identity. We're gonna discuss this today what I've been too great guests the first sitting across from me that -- who's a champion of what he calls identity 2.0. A user centric identity architecture. Dick has worked on -- -- and all off which are two fundamental technologies in online identity. And day and worked on identity and Microsoft for a term the current time by the year. I was that Microsoft is a Microsoft for years and currently he's working on a super secret stealth start up whose identity is a secret. But north and that's what tells evidence. I can talk a little bit about it -- appropriate move along we'll get into it anyway -- thanks for permanent relationship. Also joining us is Peter has -- who's the co-founder of honestly dot com formerly unvarnished. The site the scares me the most. Honestly is a professional reputation and peer review website. Where people can rate others in in a way that is both authenticated. Yet anonymous. It's a very very interest thinks I can read about quite a lot and -- or -- checking out it's fascinating thanks -- instruments. So let's start with the very basics and question has the concept or the idea of who I am as a working person. Changed in the last few years. Well I don't think it's so much seeking adjustments so we're kind of argument earlier I'm when -- mentioning. The idea that. Which -- have a lot more education channels such information as previously silent. -- -- has a tendency to flow around and float outside the corporate firewall and I'm gonna think you -- -- manifest in. Things like. Portable rollodexes in the form of linked in -- -- horrible fan bases in the form. But of tolerance and went over portable reputations in the form of you're -- dot com profile look at that. Well. You know clearly there's been a huge amount friction removed in enabling individuals to go in voice. You know citizen journalism and a lot of organizations are taking on that. And people within their organization or having a voice on behalf of the organization which I think is why we have this interesting topic right now of when you're doing it on behalf the organization. You who owns that Twitter handle who owns that -- -- page. -- umi yet as what you originally as a rebel and you know doing something in social media before your organization really understood it and and then in time the organization does understand -- -- you're the -- that drove it. You know so who owns -- -- that's that's a great question. Well one of the things I think is is. Most interest thing is the quality of the in the network of relationships that we for now it used to be. That if you were in a relationship specific heavy jobs like sales. He and his role of physical world. And if you quit enough or got fired. First thing you do is grab the world and walk out the door because that was that network your network with your life or your book of -- -- -- Reitman for. Now in many businesses that is. Against every employment contract in some cases the letter of law as well to take that -- that with you that the relationship the line. During your work life. -- Or product like in -- like the programs that you can't take those with. But this all changes doesn't on -- -- but does that mean that. Database. Is definitely company property I know that the system that they've provided you to manage those relationships but you know -- -- -- the relationship as you know. I know both -- you guys. If they can't take that away from and we have our relationship movement and you know that's -- that isn't part of the company. The information on -- -- recorded down around the relationship using corporate tools is owned by the corporation. You know -- -- get blurry as when that information that you're recording -- -- become. Part of your own personal information. Knows that you're managing and -- it right and so that by managing that relationship on Linkedin well that's really outside of any of the -- corporation provided me. And so its its my. Information. And and are on the put about the role next -- let's not forget that often times. If people sales professionals consultants -- -- how do they go from -- -- -- app as a journalist it's also the case you're one of the reasons why you get hired. It's because of politics that you -- -- you bring that tape when you augmented over. Over time and I think I'm one of the kind big revelations. -- like Linkedin kind of one. The professional social networking. Skirmishes the kind of started in early early 2000. Where there is a notion of is it going to be individual centric -- is -- going to be organizational centric so you had a conflict Linkedin where the individuals was the unit. -- and you have things like. This will pass and spoken on and so forth for they would sit on top of exchange server which come with -- -- -- right we have like the database of relationships. And in mind that information well Linkedin model kind of one -- probably because it's more akin to how we work -- individual's -- and insofar as. We see her -- -- personal and also you people do move every so often ranks as those relationships he changed tickets failed accurate news it's one and so forth and. -- FaceBook Orkut or FaceBook here you know kind of them in the back and equipment and taking your social network with you think your FaceBook log on with it which is pretty straight forward. If FaceBook of course also is becoming an off indicator and an ownership of of identity and they are companies that say. Who we are we go from you know website -- -- -- we log in with FaceBook. -- Is it is is that the right. Company or type of company to own. The are our access to other sites and our sense of kind of global across the web identity. Like. Q so think about how we ended up getting there you know right -- but wasn't out striving to be -- identity service that -- indicated people's sites. Kelly says we wanna make it you -- for people to build on our platform. And access functionality features data and it is stored. -- -- Well to be clear we want to make it easy for people to -- on our platform to FaceBook means. We want to collect all the data and everybody who uses anything -- the -- as the platform does that take the other side and I mean you compare -- and -- don't go ahead have been having talked to them now take on what the trend uses. Break -- the bears to make it easier for people share and do things and they're not gonna build all the things though. And it's very much a platform play. And wasn't. A an identity play around how to -- and -- -- and you think about you know you know. Many of the new web apps out there are social oriented and -- those we'll point it'd be one of the data sources FaceBook you know Twitter linked -- are also the data stores. And so inherently -- wanted to in Iraq but those. Services unit -- down -- Twitter posts on somebody's wall. You want that functionality. And oh by the way now if and what did that functionality also -- -- -- users them as the use them to find out if the user it's more of a secondary effect as opposed to the primary motivation or wired you're doing. Now some people have turned around really noticed that animate -- yet but what I've seen in the market is that they know that the big heavy use is really wanted to announce them. Functionality as -- news. You know the single sign on. Okay so -- -- -- the oh what I currently I think -- -- yet I I think these are scary part is that isn't necessarily -- an Apple on it but it has certainly. Going with it went well. I mean now that people are certainly use that you -- you here. Sorry about that the this is a topic I'm excited about clearly you know flung new governments. You know the data that's in -- but is better than what they have in their own system. The at look at CIA I can outsource the FaceBook well. At that that's a whole other topic around it CIA people are actually able by -- of the CIA people through FaceBook easier than through the internals of them. And solaris are for the cycle has quickly and and well it's because it's become this big social graph where analysts that of the X Internet you know like many other technology -- put everything in one place a lot of problems and a lot easier because -- not have -- parcel them out. So in these countries in because you can kind of look at what is somebody done essentially have been approached by a whole bunch of other people -- -- distributed identity mechanism. That the certainty that somebody is somebody is much higher and -- but -- -- lot of governments have and the restless with them so looking at. This is how -- -- -- people the issue identity in the government is really. And -- leveraging the pace -- infrastructure. -- -- Well just. Related to what we're saying earlier phase traditionally start out -- -- -- and -- providers -- -- but eventually it became really convenient way forward developers. Across the web to -- do you. In -- a -- identity user to need when and if I can't because -- -- -- we do with on the subject -- why we standardize on -- -- in -- is. On a couple things one on honestly dot com in an order for somebody to be able to review -- you make a comment about another person in the world. That that thing has to be identified right we have to make sure that it's like -- heart you know from -- as opposed to -- You know the auto mechanic in Peoria or what have you and one of the things it's a convenient way of doing that -- with -- -- -- The case that these acute unique identifier -- unique identifier mean. Crop before for -- -- comes purposes. Those does that again and identifiers that we can't rely. On and so one Akamai solves that problem such that you know we know that -- he's making -- reputation claim about. You know that the actual take heart -- -- as post it to Karen Peoria. On the other thing that you get to is like the christening earlier. User identification so what we can do is very quickly now whether announcements probably human. And as opposed to just being actress amber I've been looking at how many friends they -- In links that -- out links those sort of things come would take was mentioning about like. You know happening again the -- paper -- Where you're -- and that is established by what other people think about you and then also the contact stuff. Now why FaceBook as opposed to say Google or or Microsoft -- for -- -- I mean especially talks of when we're talking about. To go back to our kind of weak opening confident personal or work identity it wouldn't businesses be more comfortable with their employees were using. Microsoft or Google like he's rather than Facebook I want him to -- -- technical. Will they are and many. -- -- -- contacts I mean Microsoft is working on how do you you you know. Re use your identity with then. Active directory right you know and a number. Cloud based services -- since you -- -- that so we know and at -- we did a number of things where. You got single sign -- once you're authenticated and active directory you can actually take that out into the cloud and you don't see that as widely spread you know and it's not the hot. -- -- topic like everything in the consumer web world is but no that's moving along and if you look at Google you know since they started off McLeod. You know they are used seeing you know essentially OpenId is a mechanism for how to other eight app vendors use single sign on back against the credential -- -- Google. And then at times those credentials get -- back into whatever the enterprise. So let's talk a little about the dilemma of modern business today when it comes to knowledge workers who are using. Their own equipment in their own accounts their -- social networks to to do better jobs. One of the arguments that we have here inside and CNET is who owns my Twitter identity -- I started. You know using Twitter when I was seen an employee might CNET -- my Twitter pages that heavily branded with the CNET stuff but it's -- it's at rates. And I leave. I'm still me now while I'm here working for CNET and CBS. Everybody's happy -- benefit from the affiliation from the company my employer benefits from my brand as well I don't know who benefits more -- -- -- point the point is that a symbiotic. And when we leave what happens. How companies deal with well. In many ways and you're using the CNET brand on your account -- -- Europe controlled account if you're using your own personal email and credentials that do. Now interest and if you're using your. You know CNET credentials to log into your Twitter account. And in theory they don't because you're using a CNET credentials. Etiquette -- I'm not a I think I have had so. And then and there they've also permitted you to use their branded material on your Twitter page because it benefits them right and that if -- at least CNET Wheldon there are no longer -- that right for you to use their brand -- material. On -- page. Okay. But nonetheless. I have benefit a lot of I have more followers because of my employer then I would have if I were not employed well and the date they benefit a lot because -- Put your brand on your Twitter page there were just think -- -- the should be even that but until it depends on the context Ron Howard started right so. If you were. If you're cold go get a Twitter page and -- there for CNET write well then in theory that would be as CNET. Page you know they've -- of directed do you that you'd be using CNET credentials the authenticate into it. And if -- to leave the persona you created on Twitter would be -- CNET properties. Competent lawyer and a -- -- interest think -- of course. The -- -- -- we talk about. The modern worker is that not only retirement these these accounts we're talking many cases -- -- worker using their own hardware. There and equipment now we know everybody who doesn't who works today knows that if you use your employer's computer. And whether or not if you use your -- email only get personal email on that you're. A moron because they own your email because it's you know my at CBS interactive account is an incumbent -- that -- Officially. The company's right property now my personal stuff that comes into my Gmail even if it's on if it goes over the network and it gets a little hairy. Where it gets really interesting to -- were -- -- my own computer here at work and my own Smartphone then. Because the company -- and by means smart phone. Ray so they say I'm gonna use their email they then have the ability to go on and -- my phone if anything happens and so let's talk about how we we deal with. Kind of personal. Equipment using corporate resources and. Who owns what there -- this is ultimately. We don't really do so much that obviously don't count and a past life -- an -- that VMware. I'm one of the things that VMware wants to do is -- kind of you know a encapsulated. Computer image ran a VM. Come on. You know on your Mac or on your thinkpad or actually on your Android phone or -- So on so -- -- so what. One lot of companies reduce they would actually issued to use this bundle of windows XP year when this seminar are what have you -- everything that you didn't there. Was there's an everything outside of that BM was was yours and that's -- -- a nice. Clean way of of making that demarcation. Now has really help if you're accessing. Gmail through the fire fox in the windows XP. PM. On your Mac. But -- wanna -- -- way to do -- have like Google's -- -- let's say so lower you know works on personals on. I think that that's one of the ways that AT has been trying to connect another way of doing it is -- just. You know everything lives in the data center in your access it through a browser centric session or something like that and then that -- in nothing -- -- on your machine. That god that's so. I think that challenge on that -- you know that those of the current version of the rollodexes your address book -- and you know you start commingling the information you got what you're working with all the people you knew before -- -- the job. You know and all your personal friends he -- -- you know. That the tools the technology doesn't really later run multiple Agra what that's that's extremely inefficient means you have a a large people -- that's got everything all together and so then when you leave the organization what happens that. Something that's essentially -- around aren't a bunch of your devices right and how do you identify well that's a contact they got through the company purse that's not what you recommend -- well I think that it that's something that people and you kind of figure out I'd I don't technically it's difficult to separate the Q. And the productivity impact on somebody haven't -- -- essentially build -- address but from scratches top. Now in a lot of corporate environment. That address book is more dynamic and and yup yup and copy them over it being your personal one and so you can actually do a lot of work without haven't put in your personal one. Known when -- was Microsoft you know super useful tool was. Understand you who recruited to whom you know you're in -- median like who the heck is -- Right now but you're not alone take that data with you you know the whole org chart -- out you know that back clearly -- corporate data you know but what time. Played in the organization I had access that type of black and functionality -- appears I think that's a fairly clear line. Yet and and get your mentioning before -- like. In baton back when -- -- -- -- -- Blackberry and so you would humid called two impacted her career or what have you and you can save it off to your Blackberry save it off to how -- what have you. But even then it's still on the machine right on the the next question is okay -- objects -- -- -- he has the but also kind of in line with our larger topic here Linkedin for a long time they've actually stopped. Supporting this they had an outlook plugin. Where you would install -- -- -- like. -- essentially -- he would say that here earlier contacts and would. It would send us off to send those up to linked in such that -- those people registered on linked thin. He advocates suggest and -- you might know somebody but you might -- a friend -- very useful to the user right because you're in out like -- like supportive right now you're out like. -- get an email from -- and -- can hover over it. And it's like OK you know here's -- at CBS interactive polls and his Linkedin information is very community meatballs is very convenient to Linkedin insofar as. It exported a lot of decide email information. And the -- now my question is it's no longer hear on my machine that. That they can take away from me that I -- can take away from me it's in the cloud over here behind and in -- data -- with mine access credentials. You know they took that away now but -- you may be able get halfway there with. There was stopped -- in which which as an outlook plugin that will. Also. Go into your Linkedin and Twitter profiles know you. Relationships we have some of those services -- exactly and then you can always do which the -- CSC export it as well it's it's kind of so won't. One who thinks the people you're working on here -- reputation. And you make the interesting point that when we go to school up until the time we graduate our reputations are officially. Managed and reported and are ours we get to take our GPAs with us when we leave. You go work for business. And your reputation is created by a bunch people who are really trying to do very well -- -- just speaking from personal experience doing it and having my my -- -- And we don't really own those -- I mean we can take them with us but. If I give you my performance review from my job McGraw-Hill. I don't for I don't know he would leave him because it's not you know credit it's not like you know from a college. So -- working on reputation trying to make a portable talk to us about that what you what you think the issues are here and moving it from being. A corporate. Project to kind of the -- project. But I think. The way they were kind of thing about this is we're approaching. Professional reputation and this is an honest that I comes up professional reputation as the individual reputation when there's a nice neighbor friend who's a good friend or something like that's more like. You know -- -- what it's like to work with Rafe would've liked to work with -- what it's like to work with he. Is come with. Akin to a particular singer earlier where you have a lot more communication mechanism for this information has previously been in official -- available. Can become a lot more. Available. And so what we're trying to do is is it meek reputation professional reputation -- sensible and you know I. Accessible and accurate then how how you -- -- right now so I know certain things about tech. And a certain things about rape -- you're looking to can be cast on your show are some -- was. We can come in -- working on -- C dot com or hire me after I'm done with honestly dot com. How -- they get information art and make judgments about. For the most part right now -- become public and Linkedin profile. Right -- coming cast about it and see if you know anyone -- -- it might know me. But -- you really want is information that all that is resident -- all -- -- -- all my colleagues and people I've worked with. -- -- and for the most part that's kind of silent. And it doesn't not only does it somewhat service within the corporate environment. To varying degrees of formality accuracy with the -- -- performance -- reason things like that. Lot of places -- and how that but it certainly doesn't transport outside right of of the -- -- and -- the question is. But that's actually really problematic rights is not only does somebody who's potentially -- -- come work for me and VMware. And they find out if -- -- -- to work or. Or what have you -- moreover it also. Ends up in a situation where you have somebody who has great internal reputations now for example a brilliant engineering Google that -- would really love -- -- then. For instance but that that information is in very accessible outside the firewall penance and -- is happy with. Now your your technology your product makes it much easier for that information. To find its way to FaceBook but that -- or -- hiring managers at FaceBook yes that's what a media. So it it means that Miami. Which you are -- A superstar employee and you get great peer reviews are -- reviews or whatever. Then you can now. Get recruited or you know put yourself on another a business -- to moving. What effect does that have them on the businesses who tried to keep these secret weapons. Exactly that secret. Well I think event from eight. It already happens right people have reputations. Either through. Other Twitter followers ships or. If you think about you know of small networks right -- -- network. You know identity experts. Right there is a very -- small group of people who know each other through conferences. -- -- of this small network like you know plastic surgeons. In LA or what have you. Doubt that convert official information -- transmitted -- -- where mountain networks. And words simply -- news and accelerate that and and and make them more accessible to larger networks were kind of word of mouth breaks down. We've taken the friction out out of that -- in the having to be an insider that yet exactly and -- guess what it when trying to get at is. What practice will that change the way people are manage or work in business knowing that. For good or for bad. What they do who they are there there -- reputation identity is now a matter of public record. Well I think the way that we think about it are kind of hypothesis on this is that. More information -- you'll meet the market work better right so in the case of one of the things that techcrunch is and talking about part of it recently the talent wars between -- but -- -- -- story of and one and things that -- that people point out is that. These engineers for example -- its product managers that -- -- The only get these -- counter offers if and only if they get it. An offer from FaceBook -- -- of the question is and on oftentimes what what happens is you get an offer that actually not only is -- -- but also kind of like. Back fills you for all the time where you should have been perhaps being paid. More but you warned it is it's the I guess the point that that I bring up there and and you actually see is not just honestly don't come with other kind of stores -- reputation. Hours talking to Joshua Schechter. Formerly of delicious about this he was tighten up how some people show up -- performance -- using kind of like raise discussions with their stack overflow. And a profile like look how much stack overflow karma I'm -- I ascent as a result you know this is going to the table and I'm so there -- other kind of forms of this this professional reputation being conflicts surfaced in -- -- accessible that's something that someone right ultimate from interview. And you know they have the formal filled out. I'm gonna take in my house com profile -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- interest statement metro parkway in people are using why -- people using -- so much is it to both their reputation or people just love to contribute for free -- some stuff up there that takes hours to create. For what. The reason -- people that thing I don't write the free I don't -- you guys but I I -- for money because it yes. I mean some reason my cable -- Wikipedia as is the new Wikipedia and tie it into. More the question as opposed to stating a fact right as -- -- opinion and Cora then what was available in the Wikipedia but not fills. -- -- -- Answering people's questions -- on the web and and lots of people wanna be experts and -- on and there's that. Know same as an open source definitely learn you know a lot of the motivations to people's very ego driven right they do that they get -- fulfilled -- job might be boring and pays the bills but it's not. You know there's this missing part in their life and beliefs and their time doing now. That's valuable currency now what -- did what are you working on you you -- tons of work and identity including OpenId which was. -- -- -- an important technology to an a level playing field for blog on Andy what would you have to know what Keith Ellison. Well I'm working on a new start up a Paula Butler and it's personal data assistant and its its interest to you guys mention both it's not -- recorded -- are similar in that space where it's. The system and -- watching what you do in bubbling up and the name useful contextual information based on what you're doing. Mean that's something for such a for a report for anyone to use their relationship to get things done you know I I've seen that you know -- As we've digitized. And an automated mechanisms for communicating moving -- and amount of data relationships through outlets explode. In our brains are really -- is much equipment at -- -- numbers that we can only manage so many really in our brain I was talking to the speaking of which means -- forget that secure path. That Dave Morin thank you and without a Dunbar number 150 Dunbar number that is the number of people that we can handle. Having personal relationships with -- I hope that's that's the theory that the other -- has something to the fact that. Because only manage so many -- it out -- -- will he keep it mostly you're really your closest are people that out of there though I mean -- he's talking about her dump whatever I want fifteen that are worth fifty comes up the fifty comes from of these interviews that there's two thirds of that. As the closest of your relationship changes as you move note written -- and so -- -- circles. Right proximity. And so but the thing is is that you know. We probably have thousands of relationships now and if people we've met interacted with -- depiction of -- that -- dropped so much. You know but then. You we can't hold that in our -- so we -- we going to interact with some Mexico who is this again what's happened. Notes one of the guys that it's working with the on this project you know I was asking for some developers and -- my. -- -- hey here's disguise where email would die in a given sort of thing you know at some background -- who lie down. I didn't hear back from a couple days and so it adults -- to see related missing email problem that popped them in ninety -- I emailed him five years ago we had its long discussion and animate the conference up and act on such a moron he knows who -- up. Right right and so are up Butler is as how to how to -- make that information readily available. Now how does this information -- to do brings back to our our initial topic -- -- kind of wrap this thing up here. As tools like yours come along which help us kind of do. I'll say that CRM on our own lives and -- and as reputation management tools come along so we can now. Take our our our skills are our relationship skills and and document them and and go elsewhere with them. How does this change do you think the nature of the employer employee relationship. When we're. You work tools make it so much easier pressed become free agents within our own businesses. What -- the employer relationship well in. In my tool envision that at some point they'll be enterprise oriented data feeds and enterprises clearly don't -- those data and right -- that's going to be their data that's displayed when I'm working in the context of that organization. You know but you the Rolodex the address book you know that's kind of you know the individual's. Use of data store I know and and they're gonna take that with them and none of the organization cannot now. That you know a warning that the list around what happened with the client of the data that that's due to the -- and -- like a CRM system. Clearly is the organization's data movement and you can't take out with you that was clearly in. As -- job and doing it that but you know somebody in you know what kind of person they are whatever. You know notes she said you know here's when their birthday is and stuff like that I mean apps at a party your relationship -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Your question is how does is change the relationship between an employer in -- -- -- it and adding that the larger question is there is you have. Kind of concepts of white and white firms access right like theory of affirming my firm's existing mutton wider transactions happen -- them as opposed to on the open market right. A lot of time what that has to do with this transaction costs right. I'm so it makes sense for you to how a radio station within CNET BK is you guys do you radio -- radius offline and podcasts a -- -- so much easier than having around when out. Every so often. But as does things become more likely -- and yet the costs has him hiring somebody income linking and -- them because they how -- reputation. They have the sort of thing documented. -- that the U. Necessity of the firm targets around the edges -- and that's why you -- see things have like one people's time that firms is is kind of shrinking right the average time here. In a job and that why you also see people on things like -- desk or you -- right where. You have their skills document their -- -- parties can work on how far things like that and also their past performance in the former. Reputation systems and and -- and and reviews that are not abstract symbol from those platforms from a desk or from humans. I'm and I think -- on the concept of -- reputation public and honestly dot com profile Friday. Helps with that the same way -- like a portable contacts in the form business contacts in the form of Linkedin profile. You know what this does mean though it means that. If he can do this economical -- announcement means -- to work harder for less money. Because your reputation and you can't escape from. And that fluidity of how easy to hire somebody to do anything else is much higher because -- global. Alone but also there's an opportunity I think there's the -- to that -- you don't necessarily have to work harder for less money. In those few more efficient so that the example they -- Lewis likes to use and I love it is that there is a guy like the best dentist in San Francisco and right he used to make. -- you know couple 100000 dollars a year. Because he was it was hard to identify him as the best interests in San Francisco but then when -- -- -- all of a sudden he is now. You know very easily identified as that's dentists in San Francisco -- previously. And he was making cup opener in a year now he's making you know a million plus as it like that so in some cases could be star maker as well. -- exactly that the idea is with more with more information transparency -- the markets more efficient and excellence is rewarded and -- an -- for improvement. And add behaviors punished. Yes it is and let's leave it at that because that's what we're talking about here with you know with fluidity and transparency. In identity and reputation. We stretch things out you know low performers. Will be known at that and I performs will be known as that -- and and. I think the way to think about it is not just like -- We don't and I wanna sit back and we -- -- -- of his. Being that like there are naturally low performing people there -- there's a lot that's fit yet frame so the person who may be. She would be a better product manager and top engineer I was is an example because that's my co-founder and who's now product management -- an opinion job and -- and we take our. Well gentlemen to -- people can find you where you wanna find more information on what you're doing in order to take part our right and Pete -- -- honestly. You can find I'm dying honestly dot com profile and -- about com are you -- are. You can get a look -- my honestly dot com profile part of the gamma four point 47 or something room for improvement yes. As I know I know it's definitely check it out I got a lot of work to do gentlemen thank you so much for coming in. -- -- thanks for producing. Leon again next week with another great episode of reporters roundtable -- -- the topic yet but if you have an idea send it to me at roundtable at cnet.com you can follow me and Twitter -- a FE. And then again thanks guys because -- and -- pleasure by.